Marantz SR7007 AV Receiver Owner's Thread - Page 2

 

In this day and age (unique) firmware differences could separate them more so than hardware. And just because the firmware is the exact same file (which could or could not be the case) it doesn't mean individual models aren't addressed uniquely.

What sounds like a sensible business development model that a holding company would put in place for two brands which have both been in the red?

Fund Independant design teams for both Denon and Marantz who developed two completely separate lines of AVR's that just happen to be feature for feature clones of each other by incredible coincidence?

Or

A holding company designs a single line of AVR's which are changed cosmetically and are feature for feature clones of each other?

What do you think that holding company bleeding cash did?

What "more desirable features" have you identified in the Marantz that would validate a difference in the platform? It's far less expensive to develop a single platform and differentiate them by simply not wiring them to inputs than it is to have distinct processor design.

But since logic won't be enough and you clearly didn't search AVS, here's a post with pictures of both the SR7005 and the 3311 showing the guts.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1325243/denon-2011-lineup/270#post_20308377

Amazingly, the independent design teams from Denon and Marantz also positioned the boards and components in the exact same locations. Used the exact same ribbon cables run identically and used the same heat sinks too amongst the many obvious identical design elements....
Edited by bfreedma - 8/16/12 at 8:46pm

Just to clarify ... although the Marantz models have the pre-outs and EXT IN jacks (likely only required by a very small minority), you pay an additional price for these extra features as the comparable Denon model costs at least a couple of hundred $$$ less than the matching Marantz model.

Denon 2113CI ($649) <==> Marantz 5007 ($849)
Denon 2313CI ($849) <==> Marantz 6007 ($1199)
Denon 3313CI ($1199) <==> Marantz 7007 ($1799)

Also, quoting from the Audioholics article you linked to ....

Ok, I have to chime in as today I bought both a SR6007 and 2313CI, I did it for a test and I am also auditioning a Anthem MRX 500, which comes Saturday. I hooked up both throughout the day with the same material being used. I have 30 days to return either or both units and the Anthem will be a demo unit this weekend. I am replacing an Outlaw 7700 amp with Onkyo 709 used as a pre/pro. I have less room than before, this is why amp is being removed. I didnt care for the Onkyo as a pre/pro or by itself. I bought it 6 months ago when my Outlaw 990 pre/pro died.
To be clear, I have never owned anything Marantz and havent owned anything Denon in 7-8 yrs. Unfortunately I couldnt A/B them, but I did do a lot of hooking/unhooking of the units today!

System:
Focal 836V fronts
Focal 800CC
Focal 807V rear
Oppo 93
Direct TV

The Dark Knight..Blu Ray
Dave Matthews Live at Radio City Blu Ray

I can say after 12 hours of playing with both units and no matter how the design teams work, I definitely prefer the Marantz sound. They just sound different to me. The Marantz is cleaner and has more separation than the Denon unit. Its very obvious on the Dave Matthews Blu Ray. On the Denon it seemed like everything was coming from the same place, on the Marantz you definitely saw the spacing between Dave Matthews and his guitarist , you also almost hear the "air" around him. FYI, I ran Audyseey on both systems and used the exact same microphone placements for both. My Focals are very clean and the Onkyo was way too bright, the Marantz and Denon are more laid back and "warmer" sounding, but the detail just is better on the Marantz. While watching The Dark Knight, The Marantz seemed to place more emphasis on the surrounds and a bit stronger on the bass. Some much even my 8 yr old noticed as he sat all night and watched the same scenes over and over..lol

I have already decided that the Denon is going back tomorrow, I cant wait til this weekend to compare the 6007 to the Anthem MRX 500....ofcourse the 500 is about $300 more than the Marantz.

It doesn't matter about sensible. We don't have to make sense out of why a company does what they do. I took the time to give Marantz a call and I asked. The response was, Denon and Marantz have separate development engineering teams. If you wish, give D&M a call, speak with the COO and tell him of your concerns.

I showed you the images of the backs of the units I was discussing (SR5007 vs AVR2313Ci) and yes, there's an engineering difference. But note how you continue in your vein as if I didn't post images to back up my comments as you post on about a SR7005 while originally, I posted about a SR5007. As I posted earlier, if you aren't going maintain the context of my comments, there's no point in carrying on a conversation as you're having a monologue whilst I'm under the false impression that I'm having a dialogue.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/16/12 at 9:56pm

As JD has pointed out, your comparison of the back panels of the SR5007 and the 2313Ci is not relevant, as the 2113 is the 5007's equivalent in the line.

What I find interesting is your attempt to ignore the article you cite (http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/marantz-sr7007-sr6007-sr5007-pre), where the pictures of the 5007 and 2113 are side by side, clearly showing the similarities and indicating these are the equivalent models in the product line. Other than some deleted connections on the Denon, the placement of the back panel elements appear identical.

You then proceed to inject the 2313 as if it would be related in any way to the discussion of the alignment of the platforms. Here are the back panels of the 6007 and the 2313, which is the appropriate pair to compare

6007

2313

Other than some deleted connections on the Denon, the placement of the back panel elements appear identical.

I'm lost - what are you trying to prove here?

@BeeMan-

I wouldn't expect Marantz tech to say anything else. Of course they are going to get you off the phone asap and tell you they are different design teams. D&M Holdings spends a good bit of money to make it appear these units are different. They're hardly alone in this. Brand differentiation is big business. Not many people outside of hobbyists even know they are part of the same holding company.

Over the years many members have posted fronts, backs and guts shots from various umbrella manufacturers showing that I/O's have been rearranged to this very end and nothing more. It isn't considered unethical, except in the case of Lexicon where they literally placed an entire Oppo BDP-83 inside a Lex shell and slapped a $3500. price on it. Now that was outrageous! I wouldn't be surprised if Denon and Marantz have different aesthetic design teams but engineering and production are undoubtedly common.

And the layout of most automobile dashes are the same as are the backs of AVR's. It's called a "convention." There are only so many ways to layout the backs of an AVR as I see you're still having a monologue. I get it.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/17/12 at 6:43am

You have facts to share, showing the representative of Marantz is not being truthful?

Numerous posters have offered you logic, back plane pictures, and pictures of the guts of recent Denon and Marantz receivers that clearly show the common platform. This hard evidence has been backed up by several members very knowledgeable in the world or D&M.

If you choose to throw out all of the legitimate physical evidence in favor of a statement from a Marantz marketing drone and a single subjective opinion formed during a, too be kind, unstructured listening test, so be it, because to date, you haven't been very successful in supporting your argument. Particularly when that argument was based on your incorrect assumption that the 5007 and 2313 were placed in the same product positions by D&M, something several have noted and you continue to ignore.

Yuip, when I want to know about AVR technology, I speak with the marketing rep. The person you spoke to most likely had no idea what you were discussing, gave the party line, and got off the call to get back to their real business of marketing and selling.

Guys ... let's just agree to disagree ...and get back to the topic of this thread which is discussing the SR7007 ... shall we?

We need some actual "SR7007" owners to chime in ....

A SR7005 is not a recent comparison as Marantz is up to the SR7007. As to knowledge of the world of D&M, that's an insider position created by a merger of Marantz with Denon in 2002. Unless an insider, they're guessing.

I understand, you see Marantz as a falsehood and by comparison, believe Denon to be the truth. Wishing you well.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/17/12 at 8:15am

It was the comparison from the article YOU linked to this thread and the comparison was to the current 5007, not the 7005. Are you being intentionally intellectually dishonest now or did you read your own "evidence" incorrectly?

Regardless, this is pointless as the hard evidence is clearly out there which you choose to continuously willfully ignore. This has nothing to do with my feeling about either brand, so you can stop attempting to play a TV psychoanalyst - the truth is that the units are platform identical and no amount of your verbal whinging and unsupported claims can change that.

Cmon AVS - get the HTML5 mobile site out so that I can use my iPad and still have a functioning ignore list - Tapatalk doesn't support ignore.

I don't think anyone disputes Denon and Marantz models have a lot in common. It's beyond obvious. At the same time open several models of PCs from a vendor and often they will look virtually identical. However they will perform wildly different and feature internal revisions of the hardware (often firmware supported). To my thinking worrying about the parts (a large chunk of the hardware) or letting the receiver be defined by the hardware is rather old school. Its performance is certainly more defined by the software...

So nice that you think I'm still young. Wish that were true.

Sorry, but your subjective analysis of the two receivers isn't a valid way of making a comparison. It's not specific to you - audio memory has been proven to be unreliable. That's why DBT's and measurements are how proper comparisons are made - humans are far too subject to bias and inaccurate audio memory to validate sighted analysis, particularly given the time lag between listening sessions. I'd ask how you level matched the two units, or if you had measurements to support your subjective assessment, but I know after enough go arounds with this discussion that they won't exist.

I also don't share your assessment that the extra connections on the Marantz in any way support a conclusion that the circuits are different. It's far more likely that the circuitry is identical and that the brands attempt to differentiate by simply not connecting some of the existing circuitry to the ports in question. Having seen the 2010 and 2011 Marantz and Denon's, I doubt the 12's would be any different, particularly given the continuing erosion of D&M's financial position.

I know a number of long time distributors/reps in the industry as well. Most of them know a lot more about marketing and selling product than they know about designing and engineering product.

 

For me this totally sums up (represents virtually every point made) the frustration of stating one's opinion as fact.

So conjecture is now fact? Conjecture is opinion and nobody here knows the circuit design of both Denon and Marantz or they would have said as much. And without knowing the design/layout of each individual unit, for one to state, because they come from the same company, they're automatically the same board design and without knowledge, proffer up these brands use the circuitry differently as a way of differentiating each brand, sans stated insider knowledge, is total nonsense.



(We may be agreeing, hence the confusion on my part with your comment.)

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It's a shame that the cited review didn't compare the sound of the two receivers. It was a nice analysis of the differences and similarities between the two lines but that could have been done by comparing the two brands' websites.

This:

Folowed by this?

That's is exactly why my post started with"It's far more likely" which should make it clear that the statement is an opinion not validated to date. Given that the last two series of Denon and Marantz shared platforms, it's the best assumption until someone proves otherwise.

 

I agree 100%. It's an assumption they sound the same.

Stating the obvious, all AVR units have similar backs or interconnect conventions, so using the innuendo that both companies exhibit similar backs, therefore must share similar interiors, without in-depth discussion of the actual electrical designs based on observable differences in back designs, then one can easily say, all AVR's are internally the same. Obviously that would be ludicrous just as saying although D&M states for the record they have unrelated product development teams and being that all the AVR's produced by Marantz and Denon,are close to identical on the inside/outside, they really don't have separate design teams because it doesn't make fiscal sense to do so or if one will, when conjecture/opinion becomes fact or when no proof becomes evidence of proof.



This being a Marantz thread, I'm beginning to sense, in order to validate one's Denon purchase, Denon buyers are having to vilify Marantz and purchasers of Marantz products so personally they won't feel bad because they didn't buy a Marantz. This Marantz thread is beginning to smell like there's some Marantz envy going on.



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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/19/12 at 10:47am

Load denon firmware and marantz firmware on the opposing receiver and I would guess that is where the difference in sonic signature comes from.

butter and jelly please.

 

It has nothing to do with Denon or Marantz rather the mantra all receivers sound the same... the assumption presented as fact.

Please show me anywhere in this thread where something negative has been said about Marantz? Suggesting others have product envy is a common tactic here when someone can't actually support their position.

Nice strawman you just created as well. The chances that separate design teams independently developing identical physical platforms down to the board layout and chip placement in the two previous years is about as likely hitting Powerball. Twice. In consecutive weeks. Compare the back panel of Yamaha, Pioneer, or product to the correspondingly positioned AVR from Denon or Marantz. Not close to identical in the way that the Denon and Marantz backplanes are. Same statement for the circuit board design and layout.

I was actually criticizing the reviewer of the article for bringing up the similarities and suggesting the same innards but not actually doing a comparison listen. If he had done that, maybe this thread wouldn't have gone so astray.

I have never owned a Denon product. I did, however, replace an older Marantz receiver used as a pre/pro with an Onkyo model (to get HDMI switching) a few years back and I was surprised at the difference in sound between the two. I felt that the Marantz sounded better but thought that I just needed to get "used to" the sound of the Onkyo. Of course, my anecdote has very little to do with the current discussion since those receivers were very different in terms of design and age whereas these are very similar in those respects. Despite the similarity though, I can see how it's possible that the Marantz and Denon versions could have a different sound (due to differences in some components, firmware, etc.)

Hope to see some reviews of the SR7007 soon! And, for crying out loud, will someone please manufacture a decent AV pre/pro in the $1000 range so I don't have to keep wasting money, power, and air conditioning on amps that I don't use!!

Not receivers.....amplifiers. Stating the obvious, that would be, same pre/pro and different amplifiers. It is fact regarding DBT's showing that picking Amps is only something someone, including you, can accurately do beyond statistical chance, when sighted. The jury is not out on this issue and hasn't been for decades. In the meantime, my comments are strictly Denon/Marantz related and I'm doing my best to stay focused on this point.

As to sound quality, the sound quality can easily be changed by swapping out Audio OpAmps (operational amplifiers) in the same circuit design.

http://www.rason.org/Projects/opamps/opamps.htm

I'm well out of my pay grade with the above link.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/19/12 at 12:02pm

ummm... no... as "one" owned a marantz av7005... early adopter, paid full boat, no less... likely would still have it if it wasn't missing the key feature i wanted...

"validating" my purchases is the least of my worries... it's not like any of the units in question would break the bank..

some of us have followed this for several years... up to you whether or not you learn from that...