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OFFICIAL THREAD SONY VPL-HW50ES new SXRD Projector IFA BERLIN 2012 - Page 8

post #211 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

both calibrated and the same eyes wink.gif ,same day, same breakfeast and so on. wink.gif

The eggs were a bit more scrambled on the left side and you used too much syrup on the pancakes, that invalidates the results...
post #212 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

There is no more objective photo than the method I used for this. The images were overlapped and taken in one camera shot (that is a single photo - not 2), the photo was taken so close to the screen that camera lens variables were eliminated.

+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post


Like zombie always says, unless the test is completely objective (all variables are exactly the same - calibrated image brightness, color temp, size, other settings; camera shooting conditions) one can hardly draw any unbiased conclusions.

Wow, the JVC has much more MTF contrast. Is this the best result you could get on HW50's convergence?

I'm not sure if the Sony DSC-H20 that Kraine is using is capable of good Macro shots. I use the Nikon D40 & D90 with an 18-55 that is capable of exceptional closeups. This is where objective comparisons start.. very close up, mid-range (as shown the in e-shift / Darbee comparison) and seating distance.

The camera must be on a tripod with a remote shutter activation (or timer) to prevent camera shake @ 1/25 of a second exposure. Ideally we'd shoot in RAW to prevent any pixelation or JPG artifacts.

A closeup of the BenQ W7000 after the 1:1 firmware was update. I think most would agree this is a good starting point. This projector is razor sharp.

The JVC RS45 and RS55 came very close to being able to resolve this level of detail between pixels. The HW30 and the VW95 to a lesser extent, could not resolve the pixels at the same level of the JVC and BQ. There are times when it was difficult to know for certain when it was focused without close inspection. Both projectors still have a very good PQ, but we are discussing specific details of closeup resolution.

W7000fix-1.jpg



To allege without good objective information that the JVC isn't sharp is absurd. That it needs a Darbee to be be sharp.. more absurd. Every projector can benefit from the Darbee- even the 25K VW1000.

When we compare the HW50 and JVC reviews, you can expect this caliber of screenshots on a 142" 16:9 with the camera in the same exact location with everything else being equal for the A/B comparisons of RC vs E-shift 1 & 2.

darbee-16.jpg

e-shift1.jpg
post #213 of 302
Kraine -thanks for posting. Was the MPC on the JVC turned on for this photo?

The color artifacts looks similar to what I saw on the HW30.

X55-HW50.png
post #214 of 302
If you look at cinetson.org's 3D L/R patterns for the Sony VPL-HW50ES & the JVC RS48/X55, seems like the JVC holds up pretty well (better than the Sony?):



Full image: http://cl.ly/K9S2/JVC_vs_Sony-3DGhosting_cinetson.jpg

No idea what the brightness settings were or if the projectors were calibrated, so this most likely not an objective comparison.

Point is: JVC seems to be holding up well?
post #215 of 302
Question for zombie10k: what shutter speed do you use when you're shooting through each of the glasses' left & right 'lenses'?

I.E. When you shoot through the left/right eye portions of the glasses, each 'shutter' is open for 1/X seconds. Do you shoot with a faster shutter speed, i.e. 1/Y where Y>X or with a slower shutter speed where Y

For example, according to Sony's diagram:


The left eye's image is 'open' for 1/240s. During the next 1/240s, the transition takes place in the active shutter glasses. During this time, the lamp dims and/or the panel is blanked or more likely it's just being updated w/ the right eye's image (if there actually were time for blanking, & the liquid crystals were fast enough, that would probably really reduce ghosting & decrease motion blur). Then for the next 1/240s the right eye's image is being shown.

If you're shooting with a shutter speed faster than 1/240s (say 1/800s), then you have no idea where in this 1/240s interval you're sampling. If you're sampling near the beginning, you may have worse results than if you're sampling near the end of the 1/240s. Just conjecturing here.

However, if you use a slow shutter speed (by placing a ND filter in front of your lens or by stopping down), say like 1 or more seconds, then you'll average out a whole bunch of 1/240s intervals. I feel this would give you a more accurate, average, representation of the ghosting performance.

So, again: what shutter speeds do you typically use? Any idea what shutter speeds cinetson used? kraine?

Thanks.
post #216 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Yes ! And thats no joke.
So I will sacrifice myself and give you my HW50 in exchange for your VW1000 tongue.gif

On the way. smile.gif
post #217 of 302
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Kraine -thanks for posting. Was the MPC on the JVC turned on for this photo?
The color artifacts looks similar to what I saw on the HW30.
X55-HW50.png

MPC was activate on the X55 yes but not the RC on the SONY;
post #218 of 302
Nevermind my earlier questions about shutter speed of camera for the images attempting to measure ghosting.

It seems from the EXIF data that the JVC shots were taken at ~1/8s, & zombie10k's shots were ~1/15s for the HW30 shots.

That's much longer than 1/120s or 1/240s or even 1/24s. So neither of these images from kraine or zombie10k should be subsampling the interval of when the shutter is open for L or R eye, meaning the shots should average out any delays in liquid crystal switching that might otherwise register if you sampled a duration shorter than the entire length of time a shutter may be open for either eye (1/240s for Sony). The longer the shutter speed, the more averaging you do, & the less the chance of such an artifact.

Point is the testing methodology seems sound in which case it seems like the JVC is holding up well.

Thanks for the tests guys.
post #219 of 302
Thread Starter 
cine4home test is online :

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Sony_VPL_HW50/Sony_VPL-HW50_ES_Test.htm

they were able to find 1680 lumens before calibration and 1300 to 1400 after, I was able to find 1704 lumens after calibration because the factory presets on my test units needs almost no correction on the color accuracy
post #220 of 302
The review confirms the HW50 uses the same lens as the 30, but its implementation in the newly designed optical path gives an overall sharper picture from corner to corner than the HW30. This is good news. Also, the increase in brightess and native contrast over the HW30 is making this projector look pretty good to me in this price range.
post #221 of 302
After the above and also Kraine's review, I think its safe to say when looking for a mutli-purpose projector, Sony have absolutely nailed themselves to the top of the leaderboard at this price range (and above!?!) - it will be interesting to see how the new Epson's and Jvc's stack up against it once we see their reviews. The bar has been raised by Sony, lets hope the others can make a fight of it.
post #222 of 302
Can someone who owns the 50 please confirm if it has Dark Frame Insertion mode? Film Projection Mode under the motionflow settings? None of the reviews seems to mention DFI, and that was one of the things I really liked about the VW90. DFI, when used in conjunction with frame interpolation create an amazingly blur free image.
post #223 of 302
I wish Cine4home had more comparisons in their review. They provide a lot of technical details but very little is said in comparisons to other projectors. Not to mention that after translation processing has taken place it's hard to understand exactly what the true message is being given. Still highly anticipating Zombie10k's analysis. smile.gif
post #224 of 302
Sorry to ask this elementary question but how do I get Google Translate to work with my Firefox browser? Seems like I used to be able to right click on the article and it would do it.
post #225 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Can someone who owns the 50 please confirm if it has Dark Frame Insertion mode? Film Projection Mode under the motionflow settings? None of the reviews seems to mention DFI, and that was one of the things I really liked about the VW90. DFI, when used in conjunction with frame interpolation create an amazingly blur free image.


Yes, it does have DFI

Regards,
Ekki
post #226 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Can someone who owns the 50 please confirm if it has Dark Frame Insertion mode? Film Projection Mode under the motionflow settings? None of the reviews seems to mention DFI, and that was one of the things I really liked about the VW90. DFI, when used in conjunction with frame interpolation create an amazingly blur free image.

I confirm. The DFI is there. Same as VW90 and VW95.
post #227 of 302
Thread Starter 
And it's generate flickering so you better turn it off;
post #228 of 302
Thanks guys.

Yeah I noticed ficker with 24hz sources, but when I used it with 60hz sources combined with FI. It really improved the motion for things like sports.

This was with the Vw90 I owned.
post #229 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Can someone who owns the 50 please confirm if it has Dark Frame Insertion mode? Film Projection Mode under the motionflow settings? None of the reviews seems to mention DFI, and that was one of the things I really liked about the VW90. DFI, when used in conjunction with frame interpolation create an amazingly blur free image.


It do have it ( dont owns one, but have played with one smile.gif )


dj


Edit : everone else had responded before me redface.gif
post #230 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm1212 View Post

I called them and they are sending a lamp no questions asked.
On the downside I spent a short while on the phone with tech support about a transformer-like whine I hear when 3D is on. No other setting triggers it (high fan, high lamp, etc) so he concluded it's a defect. I waiting on the line now to figure out how to do the exchange. Sigh.

I received my extra lamp and I received a replacement projector. Unfortunately the new one has the same buzz that kicks in only when 3d is enabled. I guess it's a design issue. My first one was a SN ending in 17, this one ends in the 190's so I think I'm still pretty early in the inventory. I don't understand why others don't hear it. It is a little high pitched and not all that loud. Kind of a transformer buzz. Maybe I'm just being too particular. It doesn't bother me enough to return it for a refund. The picture really is super. Waiting for the glasses to charge :-).
post #231 of 302
Try changing the Adaptive Light Control (3D Glasses Brightness) variable in 3D, what you may be hearing is the the circuit that is modulating the bulb brightness to sync with the glasses. There are 5 steps “Min,” “1,” “2,” “3,” and “Max.”... start at one and get a baseline for the sound and move up from there.
I bet this is what you are hearing, you may be hearing some caps or other discrete components clamping / cycling to keep up with the 60 cycles. The cycle probably sounds very much like a transformer buzz because of the inherent same on-off effect and rate.

Now.... how loud is it... because that is a bummer...does it resonate or have harmonics or overtones?
Edited by tehotaone - 10/17/12 at 8:42pm
post #232 of 302
IFAIK - in the HW30, the 95ES and probely the 50ES too, the lamp pulsing is only active in mode "3" and max. ( so if it that, then you shouldnt hear anything in mode min,1 and 2 )


dj
post #233 of 302
I read it differently from the CIne 4 Home review, it was translated so I could be wrong. I bet that circuit is enabled in 3D to some degree all the time and that is the buzz you hear. I will look for it when mine arrives.
post #234 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehotaone View Post

Try changing the Adaptive Light Control (3D Glasses Brightness) variable in 3D, what you may be hearing is the the circuit that is modulating the bulb brightness to sync with the glasses. There are 5 steps “Min,” “1,” “2,” “3,” and “Max.”... start at one and get a baseline for the sound and move up from there.
I bet this is what you are hearing, you may be hearing some caps or other discrete components clamping / cycling to keep up with the 60 cycles. The cycle probably sounds very much like a transformer buzz because of the inherent same on-off effect and rate.
Now.... how loud is it... because that is a bummer...does it resonate or have harmonics or overtones?

Interesting. It's clearly associated with this setting. The sound attenuates a bit when this setting is switched from 3 to 2. The other steps may have a slight change but that one is the the most significant. I can live with the slight loss of brightness so I'll keep it on 2. I wouldn't be too alarmed about this sound. When the movie is playing I don't even notice it. I just thought there was something wrong that might get worse over time. I have to pause the movie or turn the volume off to focus on it. It's sort of a standing wave in the room. If I move my head left or right I can find a spot where it is a little better/worse. I have to tell you my hearing is bad though in one ear. Lost about 80% in my left ear to a virus some years ago. Someone with good hearing might mind it more than I do. My 16 year old heard both units and he also says when the movie is playing it's unnoticeable.

thanks
post #235 of 302
Record it, measure the level and play it back equally at 180 degrees out of phase wink.gif All kidding aside I am sure it is not that bad, but I do have OCD and high expectations... so I will let you know.
post #236 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehotaone View Post

I read it differently from the CIne 4 Home review, it was translated so I could be wrong. I bet that circuit is enabled in 3D to some degree all the time and that is the buzz you hear. I will look for it when mine arrives.


I read german and Ekki wrote:

"So ist es möglich, eine bessere Anpassung auf die Leinwandgröße, das Bildmaterial und die persönlichen Sehgewohnheiten vorzunehmen. Die höchsten beiden Stufen nutzen das zusätzliche Lampen-Pulsing. "

Translated ( by me and google smile.gif ) "The highest two levels use the additional lamp pulsing."


dj
post #237 of 302
"The highest two levels use the additional lamp pulsing." I am thinking it is on either way... the last two change the duty cycle or duration possibly.
post #238 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm1212 View Post

I received my extra lamp and I received a replacement projector. Unfortunately the new one has the same buzz that kicks in only when 3d is enabled. I guess it's a design issue. My first one was a SN ending in 17, this one ends in the 190's so I think I'm still pretty early in the inventory. I don't understand why others don't hear it. It is a little high pitched and not all that loud. Kind of a transformer buzz. Maybe I'm just being too particular. It doesn't bother me enough to return it for a refund. The picture really is super. Waiting for the glasses to charge :-).

Just wanted to add that I have my HW50 now and it's making the same sound when in 3d, go back to 2d and its gone so they might have some type of defect here, though when I called Sony of Canada this is the first they have heard a out it. Will keep all posted when I get more info.
post #239 of 302
It may not be a defect, just a byproduct of the lamp modulation scheme. Can someone record it and put it on SoundCloud.com... while recording maybe call out steps in the 5 settings with a 5 sec pause in between each step?
I would be curious to hear a HW30 under the same conditions. If Sony did increase the voltage to the bulb during this phase without changing the circuit's headroom, they could have induced an unwanted audible artifact by way of slight component strain?

We will have to wait and see,
post #240 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehotaone View Post

It may not be a defect, just a byproduct of the lamp modulation scheme. Can someone record it and put it on SoundCloud.com... while recording maybe call out steps in the 5 settings with a 5 sec pause in between each step?
I would be curious to hear a HW30 under the same conditions. If Sony did increase the voltage to the bulb during this phase without changing the circuit's headroom, they could have induced an unwanted audible artifact by way of slight component strain?

We will have to wait and see,

I had the HW30 for about a year and installed 2 for friends. I never heard this noise and have the projector mounted about 3 feet from my seating position (table mount for HP screen).

Our review HW50 should arrive tomorrow, I'll check it out and let you guys know if there is a similar noise in 3D mode with the high settings.
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