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best 5.1 setup with AVR for <$500 - Page 3

post #61 of 98
7/26/12 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

are these RMS or dynamic values? Why are they so much higher then what it's rated for?

8 ohm vs 6 ohm vs 4 ohm test readings. ???
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post #62 of 98
7/26/12 at 1:01pm
Thread Starter 
I found an Onkyo 605 for $150, around the same as the 1612 refurb. Would the Onkyo be an improvement in sound quality over the Denon?
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post #63 of 98
7/26/12 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

8 ohm vs 6 ohm vs 4 ohm test readings. ???

"8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 103.9 watts and 1% distortion at 118.5 watts."

but the spec sheet says 75 W at 8 ohms?

that is what im talking about
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post #64 of 98
7/26/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
I found an Onkyo 605 for $150, around the same as the 1612 refurb. Would the Onkyo be an improvement in sound quality over the Denon?

I dont think it would. The Denon has better room calibration software using Audyssey MultEQ which will make it sound better. The Denon also eq's the subwoofer. The Onkyo 605 does not eq the sub.

Plus you get a 1 year warranty with the Denon, standby passthru, 3D capability, HDMI on screen display and a USB port.

The Onkyo xx5, xx6, xx7, xx8 receivers all have been known to have HDMI daugther board failures. I wouldn't risk it.
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post #65 of 98
7/26/12 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

"8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 103.9 watts and 1% distortion at 118.5 watts."
but the spec sheet says 75 W at 8 ohms?
that is what im talking about

At 75W the distortion level is only .05 where it is .1 at 103.9W. That's 20x more distortion.

And how long did they run the test at 103.9 watts? Or was it just a quick peak rating? Was it driving two channels?
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post #66 of 98
7/26/12 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

At 75W the distortion level is only .05 where it is .1 at 103.9W. That's 20x more distortion.
And how long did they run the test at 103.9 watts? Or was it just a quick peak rating? Was it driving two channels?

Yeah that makes sense. Isn't .05 to .1 only 2x more distortion?
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post #67 of 98
7/26/12 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

are these RMS or dynamic values? Why are they so much higher then what it's rated for?

Overall, Denon and Marantz tend to perform well in surround mode, and tend to be built well. It is
hard to say how long they performed the test for 2 channels driven. If you look at the reviews from
HT Magazine, most of the receivers do have higher measurements in 2 channel mode, against their
surround mode. The main thing I look for, is good power with low distortation.
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post #68 of 98
7/26/12 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

Yeah that makes sense. Isn't .05 to .1 only 2x more distortion?

Yep, I was using the "new" math? wink.gif
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post #69 of 98
7/27/12 at 8:56am
Thread Starter 
Waiting for the speakers to ship on monday, and have been checking out craigslist. Found a pair of Cerwin Vega LS 12 and Cerwin Vega LS-5c for $150. I see a lot of oversized speakers that looks like they are used for real movie theaters, are these generally higher class than the entry level speakers we talked about, or are they just really loud without any kind of definition?
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post #70 of 98
7/27/12 at 11:35am
Thread Starter 
Ordered the 1712 refurb on accessories4less with the ipod dock for $302 shipped, wonder if the MultEQ XT and extra watt per channel is worth the price difference from the 1612 at ecost for $177 shipped.
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post #71 of 98
7/27/12 at 11:05pm
Thread Starter 
Been looking at the stats back and forth, at the distortion % per wattage for a given ohm. To my understanding, that the Denon works better with 8-ohm than a 4-ohm speaker, since it has lower distortion at a given wattage with the 8-ohm. This lead me to think that I cannot look at the 8-ohm measurements for the Pioneer speakers, which are 6-ohm. Not only they're 6-ohm, they are also tower speakers.

I'm not sure why they didn't measure the distortion on 6-ohm's, but I'm assuming if anything it should have HIGHER distortion on the 6-ohm than the 8-ohm at a given wattage/power/volume right?

My question is basically, whether the 1612 can drive the Pioneer setup (x2 towers, x2 bookshelves, x1 center), which are 6-ohm speakers, at a medium to high volume setting. I don't want to buy a receiver just to return it after finding out that it can't drive my speakers enough. Also, if I hook up a powered sub, does it take power from the amp at all, meaning will it drive down the powers from the speakers?

Will greatly appreciate the advice. Thanks all, learning a lot here smile.gif

BTW, the reason I'm asking this is because I want to cancel the $302 1712 in favor of the $177 1612 to save more money wink.gif
Edited by Solarium - 7/27/12 at 11:24pm
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post #72 of 98
7/27/12 at 11:30pm
A powered sub will actually help out your receiver because the sub will produce all the lower frequencies and takes a load off your receiver to produce them and send to main speakers. If your receiver only has to produce 80hz and above it'll run cooler and more effiiciently.
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post #73 of 98
7/28/12 at 12:24am
Thread Starter 
I just got the Energy S10.3 subwoofer for $200 with no tax/free shipping at newegg, needless to say, I'm pretty happy about this price drop smile.gif

Still need to figure out the 1712 vs 1612 though, I canceled the 1712 because I couldn't justify spending x2 the amount I'm paying for the 1612 without knowing exactly why I'm paying for it.
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post #74 of 98
7/28/12 at 10:37am
1612 vs 1712, you're paying extra for more HDMI inputs, a little more power and Audyssey MultEQ XT.

If you don't want or need those things, stick with the 1612.

The refurb 1712 is $250 plus shipping at accessories4less, so probably around $275 or less shipped.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR1712/DENON-AVR-1712-7.1-A/V-Surround-Receiver/1.html

And you can get the AVR-1612 brand new with 2 year warranty from Crutchfield for $199 shipped using promo code 3A172
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AV1612/Denon-AVR-1612.html

you enter the promo code at checkout.
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post #75 of 98
7/28/12 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

A powered sub will actually help out your receiver because the sub will produce all the lower frequencies and takes a load off your receiver to produce them and send to main speakers. If your receiver only has to produce 80hz and above it'll run cooler and more effiiciently.

You forgot the part about, if you're cranking the volume control. I, with knowledge, set my system up with no filters so the mains can do what they're designed to do. This augmented by a complimentary pair of subs and no 80Hz filter turned on. Why buy mains that can dig deep and then filter at 80 or 40Hz? To me, subs are complimentary, not a crutch.

confused.gif

I'm so lost by the conflicting audio philosophies that I read on these pages.

confused.gif
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post #76 of 98
7/28/12 at 10:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

1612 vs 1712, you're paying extra for more HDMI inputs, a little more power and Audyssey MultEQ XT.
If you don't want or need those things, stick with the 1612.
The refurb 1712 is $250 plus shipping at accessories4less, so probably around $275 or less shipped.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR1712/DENON-AVR-1712-7.1-A/V-Surround-Receiver/1.html
And you can get the AVR-1612 brand new with 2 year warranty from Crutchfield for $199 shipped using promo code 3A172
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AV1612/Denon-AVR-1612.html
you enter the promo code at checkout.

I was looking at the ecost 1713 refurb, it's $270 and has everything I wanted: Audyssey MultEQ XT, airplay, pandora internet radio, iPod/iPhone USB port, and more power per channel than the 1712. They show no stock left, but I ordered anyway. I guess I'll just wait until they are back in stock when they ship.
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post #77 of 98
7/28/12 at 10:58am
actually it doesn't have more power than the 1712. 1713 is 80W x 5, 1712 is 90 x 7. At power ratings that close you probably wont notice a difference.

But the 1713 does have all the features you want so would be the better choice for you. Congrats on your purchase.
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post #78 of 98
7/29/12 at 9:07pm
Thread Starter 
Oh man, found a 5.0 set of Energy RC Micro that's new in unopened box for $125... so tempted to get these even though it's going to sound crappier than the Pioneer's. Someone talk me out of it smile.gif
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post #79 of 98
7/29/12 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

Someone talk me out of it smile.gif

Let's see what you posted.

Quote:
... so tempted to get these even though it's going to sound crappier than the Pioneer's.

So let me understand this, because it's a crazy good deal, you want to buy them, despite knowing they'll sound crappy?

confused.gif
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post #80 of 98
7/29/12 at 11:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

Oh man, found a 5.0 set of Energy RC Micro that's new in unopened box for $125... so tempted to get these even though it's going to sound crappier than the Pioneer's. Someone talk me out of it smile.gif

Unless you plan to give them to someone else, what's the point? You know they wont sound as good as your Pioneers.
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post #81 of 98
7/30/12 at 3:42am
save your money
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post #82 of 98
7/30/12 at 6:40am
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys, friends don't let friends buy less than ideal speakers
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post #83 of 98
7/30/12 at 7:00am
Thread Starter 
There's a used Velodyne DLS-4000 on CL for $200, would this be a massive upgrade to the energy 10.3 that I'll be getting?
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post #84 of 98
7/30/12 at 10:48am
Thread Starter 
Also, called in to ecost and found out that they don't know whether they'll even be getting the 1713, and I think they just put it there since it was released recently. I doubt they'll be getting a refurbished item for such a new release, since it wasn't released until recently, so I canceled the order. That $199 shipped new 1612 looks good, might just order that, especially now that I found that you can play spotify or pandora on iPhone and play via the USB cable linked to the 1612, negating the need for networking. I guess I can do without the MultEQ XT and 5 extra watts on the amp from the 1712 and honestly I doubt it's worth the extra $100 getting a refurb one.
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post #85 of 98
7/31/12 at 7:35am
Dear OP,

I thought I liked to reasearch things you put me to shame. I think my boyfriend was tired of listening to my speaker decision making process. Now he has to listen to my subwoofer descision making process.

Fedex just delivered my Denon 1712 yesterday. Bought it used for $200 bucks before I knew about the refurb deal that would have allowed me to retain the warranty. It seems like the women who sold it to me never even used it because it is perfectly packaged in the original packaging. I really liked the many HDMI ports and the Mulit Eq Audyssey . that is what put me over hte edge for the 1712. Just got my monoprice speaker stuff this morning so I will go home and wire it all up to make sure the receiver is working but it looks like it should be fine.

I am salty that BB didn’t discount the three display model speakers out of the 5.0 set. It didnt even occur to me to ask; i never buy from BB. I still got it for about the same price you did but I had to use a gift card to achieve that price. My display models have a couple of small imperfections that are really only noticeable upon close inspection. Some dark show polish may help that.

I bought this riser on Amazon (Convenience Concepts Designs-2-Go 2-Tier Swivel TV Stand) so that I can raise up my TV and put my large center speaker in front. I have a 55” LED that meets the weight requirements for the stand and I saw in the reviews that others have used it with larger LCD tvs with success. That over-the-tv stand I linked in previous post just made me nervous once I felt how heavy this center is.

I look forward to watching TV and movies with great sound while I knit. My boyfriend is excited about how Gears of War will sound on the X box.
Edited by spoonful - 7/31/12 at 7:47am
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post #86 of 98
7/31/12 at 8:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonful View Post

Dear OP,
I thought I liked to reasearch things you put me to shame. I think my boyfriend was tired of listening to my speaker decision making process. Now he has to listen to my subwoofer descision making process.
Fedex just delivered my Denon 1712 yesterday. Bought it used for $200 bucks before I knew about the refurb deal that would have allowed me to retain the warranty. It seems like the women who sold it to me never even used it because it is perfectly packaged in the original packaging. I really liked the many HDMI ports and the Mulit Eq Audyssey . that is what put me over hte edge for the 1712. Just got my monoprice speaker stuff this morning so I will go home and wire it all up to make sure the receiver is working but it looks like it should be fine.
I am salty that BB didn’t discount the three display model speakers out of the 5.0 set. It didnt even occur to me to ask; i never buy from BB. I still got it for about the same price you did but I had to use a gift card to achieve that price. My display models have a couple of small imperfections that are really only noticeable upon close inspection. Some dark show polish may help that.
I bought this riser on Amazon (Convenience Concepts Designs-2-Go 2-Tier Swivel TV Stand) so that I can raise up my TV and put my large center speaker in front. I have a 55” LED that meets the weight requirements for the stand and I saw in the reviews that others have used it with larger LCD tvs with success. That over-the-tv stand I linked in previous post just made me nervous once I felt how heavy this center is.
I look forward to watching TV and movies with great sound while I knit. My boyfriend is excited about how Gears of War will sound on the X box.

I was really interested in the 1712 as well, but I couldn't find any refurb less than $270, and since it didn't have the USB port I needed an additional iPod dock which was $34 on top of that. In the end I went for the 1612 from Crutchfield as afrogt pointed out, for $200. I would be interested in your review of the 1712 vs my 1612 with the same Pioneer set smile.gif

About the center speaker, I actually got a completely new TV stand for it. Granted I only got it for $40 used off craigslist, it was very new looking and all wood material, with cabinets on both sides and a center slot that's big enough to fit the Pioneer center in, right underneath the TV, plus drawers underneath. I felt that raising the TV in any way over my previous TV stand, which was a bookshelf from Ikea on the side, would make the already high TV position higher, and I will literally bend my neck 45 degrees up to watch TV.

All in all, I felt pretty good about the purchase, I just saw that Macmall also as the refurb for $167 shipped, but it only has 1 year warranty and I can't trust refurb these days unless they're an extraordinary deal. That doesn't mean if I see a 1712 for $200 too that I won't jump on it though smile.gif
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post #87 of 98
7/31/12 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

I was really interested in the 1712 as well, but I couldn't find any refurb less than $270, and since it didn't have the USB port I needed an additional iPod dock which was $34 on top of that. In the end I went for the 1612 from Crutchfield as afrogt pointed out, for $200. I would be interested in your review of the 1712 vs my 1612 with the same Pioneer set smile.gif

I don't blame you at all. I really didn't want to go any higher than i did and I would have went the same route as you had I not found this lady selling the 1712. but i still have to hook it up tonight to see if the deal is good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

About the center speaker, I actually got a completely new TV stand for it. Granted I only got it for $40 used off craigslist,

funny that your brand new TV stand cost $10 more than the little riser I bought. I also have an Ikea peice housing my TV and related stuff. its actually a buffet meant for then dining room but it works as its deeper than any TV stand I could find thus accomodating my HTPC. And it is pretty low profile with translucent glass doors so it holds everything out of view. I also got that one from craigslist for $40! I'll share picks once i get stuff arranged.
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post #88 of 98
8/3/12 at 9:40pm
Thread Starter 
I'm seeing refurbed units of 1713 at ecost/macmall for $270 or 2113 for $340 shipped, which would be a better deal? BTW, does it make a difference buying at ecost or macmall? I know they're the same companies, but only ecost says it's a Denon authorized retailer, but Macmall has the free shipping... decisions decisions. Luckily I got a free return label to Crutchfield in case I had to cancel smile.gif
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post #89 of 98
8/11/12 at 9:36am
Thread Starter 
How long do I need to "break in" these speakers for, and playing at what volume?
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post #90 of 98
8/11/12 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

How long do I need to "break in" these speakers for, and playing at what volume?

About twenty hours of good old fashion rock-n-roll from whatever time zone will do the trick. All you're doing is loosening the speakers up to get rid of that new speaker stiffness so the speaker cones will be more flexible or responsive. When new, speakers have to overcome this stiffness so they're ability to respond (dynamics) is reduced. A bit of loosening up and you're ready to rock.
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