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Newbie questions on using splitters for coax cables... - Page 2

post #31 of 54
7/22/12 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

Hmm, I don't have the specifications. The one, I got from Radio Shack from several years ago, has two one one end and three on the other end (one is for input).
That's a 4-way splitter. Loss is ~7dB on each leg.
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post #32 of 54
7/22/12 at 12:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

Phil - there is a BIG difference in the cabling setup for a Dish Network satellite system versus what you're trying to do with OTA. About the only things that can be interchanged is the physical cable itself - all the interconnectors will probably need to be changed out.
For starters - ANY "splitters" used for satellite probably will not work for OTA - they are , in reality - multiswitches. You can count on needing to replacing all those. Since you said this was Dish setup, it is quite likely that there are diplexers (they look like a splitter but are not) that allowed them to multipurpose a cable to carry satellite signal to the receiver, and use OTA/ cable frequencies to send a 2nd output to another TV.
The best way to setup your OTA distribution system is to do it in a star wiring diagram - all rooms come to a central location, (as well as the antenna input), where you will probably need a distribution amplifer to send balanced signals to all locations.
If I was doing your project, I would start by figuring out how to get at least 1 run of RG6 from the central "wiring closet" to each room that will have an OTA receiver (be it a HDTV with a builtin tuner, or the converter boxes). Once you have that all figured out, THEN you can start working out how to get a signal to all locations at the same time. You may want to check out the offerings at www.smarthome.com for doing your distribution amp system. Another possibility would be any local home theater installers.
Are you saying the previous coax cables (and their heads) were only designed for Dish service? I thought coax cables were compatible with all TV services (OTA, cable, and satellite). Crap if they are not designed for OTA.

Although strange that the weak rooms started working nicely after getting two new Samsung HDTVs (55" and 20"), changing a couple short coax cables outside of the coax outlets, and moving Zeinth+CRT TV to the farthest room in the house! We will see if they will remain strong and stable in the future! That just doesn't make any sense. It can't be the splitter since we went back to that GE brand after RMS brand's two ports showed the same results and retested (still weak).

Just in case, where can we get good installers in/near Los Angeles/L.A. area assuming to avoid Best Buy's wink.gif?
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post #33 of 54
7/22/12 at 12:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post

That's a 4-way splitter. Loss is ~7dB on each leg.
Yeah and using RMS' two ports had ~3.5 dB and showed the same results as a test for the weak rooms. So, it is not the splitters then. frown.gif
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post #34 of 54
7/22/12 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

... weak rooms started working nicely after getting two new Samsung HDTVs (55" and 20"), changing a couple short coax cables outside of the coax outlets, and moving Zeinth+CRT TV to the farthest room in the house!
Amazing what one or two crappy coax cables can do to a signal.tongue.gif
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post #35 of 54
7/22/12 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

Here's the one in the old house: http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/OldHouseRadioShackSplitterFrom2008or2009.jpg (with details I saw on it -- no model either so I assume it is just a generic one). I think I got it in the end of 2008 or early 2009. I hope to look at the other house's splitter in the attic this weekend.
I also found an used/old three ports splitter (one input + two 3.5 dB outputs) from my goodies bag. I think I used this splitter before I got RadioShack's five ports splitter since I got more tuners. :P Its sticker label said:
RMS
DigiTap(TM)
Low Intermodulation Splitter
Model 1002DWSBSCTE
6KV Surge Protected
5-1,000 MHz
-120 dB RFI
CE
Made in China
I will try that too to see if it makes any differences in the other house's attic (just to try all rooms with TVs). Also, I found out that the attic's $25 splitter was from RadioShack. That's bad quality splitter, right? frown.gif
Darn, that RMS splitter did NOT help so it is sounds like the coax cables. The one in the attic is from GE (General Electrics) and NOT RadioShack (sorry!) that was $25. FYI, I took photographs/photos. of RadioShack's and RMS' splitters: http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/2typesOfsplitters.jpg ... I can see how RadioShack's 5 ports definitely made OTA signals weaker compared to RMS' 2 ports when I did in a room for testing.

HOWEVER, we did manage to get most and stable channels (even got the missing channels like KCBS2 and stablized KTLA5) in the weak rooms with the GE splitter (wanted to keep all rooms active since RMS didn't change anything). I don't know why that worked. All we did was hook up a new Samsung 55" HDTV in the family room (the strongest and stable with about 100 channels) and move that old CRT TV with Zeinth converter box into the master bedroom (farthest room). That makes no sense. What did we do to make them work better? Or maybe we just got lucky during the late evening hours? Earlier in the day, they were weak and unstable as usual in the weak rooms. We'll keep checking and testing to be sure they are still strong and stable. Strange, eh?

phildaant,

It's time to bite the bullet and do the following: Buy a new length of RG6 that is long enough to be connect from your "splitter" to each TV location. Buy a "barrel" connector (a simple connector used to connect two pieces of coaxial cable with F-connectors together.) Then:

1) Connect your antenna to the long length of new RG6 (through the barrel connector; NO "splitter.") Connect this to TV #1. Make mental or written notes about the reception.
2) Remove the barrel connector and insert the "splitter" instead. Make mental or written notes about the reception. ANY DECREASE IN RECEPTION IS DUE TO THE SPLITTER.
3) Remove the long RG6 and connect the existing coax to that room. Make mental or written notes about the reception. ANY DECREASE IN RECEPTION COMPARED TO #2 ABOVE IS DUE TO THE OLD COAX (or its old F-connectors.)

Do the above for each room (TV.) If the TVs all get different reception when connected as in #1, it's the difference in TVs. If it looks as though the coaxial cable is the culprit (#3), it might be as simple as replacing the old connectors. Cut about 1" off of each end of the cable and put on new F-connectors. I'd use a new 4->1 splitter regardless.

Splitter: http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=201-104
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post #36 of 54
7/22/12 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

Are you saying the previous coax cables (and their heads) were only designed for Dish service? I thought coax cables were compatible with all TV services (OTA, cable, and satellite). Crap if they are not designed for OTA.
Although strange that the weak rooms started working nicely after getting two new Samsung HDTVs (55" and 20"), changing a couple short coax cables outside of the coax outlets, and moving Zeinth+CRT TV to the farthest room in the house! We will see if they will remain strong and stable in the future! That just doesn't make any sense. It can't be the splitter since we went back to that GE brand after RMS brand's two ports showed the same results and retested (still weak).
Just in case, where can we get good installers in/near Los Angeles/L.A. area assuming to avoid Best Buy's wink.gif?

That's not what I'm saying at all - the RG6 cables (and their connectors) are about the only thing from the previous Dish setup that you CAN use The switches / diplexers/etc unique for Dish are NOT usable for OTA.

Baiscally - we're saying you need to strip all other fittings except the cable completely out, and start building from there - check each cable run for acceptable OTA reception. Once each TV is working when connected to the antenna - THEN you can start worrying about splitters / distribution amps, etc.

In Short -
Step 1 - remove ALL Dish / DBS related pieces that connect 2 or more cables together
Step 2 - get adequate reception from the antenna to EACH TV with no splitters/ whatever
Step 3 - figure out what you need to put in to get OTA reception to each TV AT THE SAME TIME.

Step 3 will probably be the hardest

Keep us posted - there's alot of experiance here - ask if you have a question...
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post #37 of 54
7/22/12 at 1:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Amazing what one or two crappy coax cables can do to a signal.tongue.gif
They're not new either especially in the farthest room (also uses screw connectors) and TVs were moved to different rooms. Also, all these previous and current coax cables are not long between the coax cable outlets to the tuners.
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post #38 of 54
7/22/12 at 1:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

That's not what I'm saying at all - the RG6 cables (and their connectors) are about the only thing from the previous Dish setup that you CAN use The switches / diplexers/etc unique for Dish are NOT usable for OTA.
Baiscally - we're saying you need to strip all other fittings except the cable completely out, and start building from there - check each cable run for acceptable OTA reception. Once each TV is working when connected to the antenna - THEN you can start worrying about splitters / distribution amps, etc.
In Short -
Step 1 - remove ALL Dish / DBS related pieces that connect 2 or more cables together
Step 2 - get adequate reception from the antenna to EACH TV with no splitters/ whatever
Step 3 - figure out what you need to put in to get OTA reception to each TV AT THE SAME TIME.
Step 3 will probably be the hardest
Keep us posted - there's alot of experiance here - ask if you have a question...
Ah OK. Hopefully, those coax cables are still OK. Dish stuff were disconnected for sure like its multiswitch, coax cable and its outlet, and power AC. The only thing left behind was that Dish' small satellite dish on the roof. Obviously, that requires to be someone to be on the roof to do that (parents and I (disabled) won't go on it hence no antenna up there too). Its connection was unplugged for power and coax cable.

So far, TVs are still stable and strong. Crossing my antenna(s/e), as an ant, that they all stay this way. I hope this is the end? smile.gif
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post #39 of 54
7/22/12 at 2:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by domino92024 View Post

phildaant,
It's time to bite the bullet and do the following: Buy a new length of RG6 that is long enough to be connect from your "splitter" to each TV location. Buy a "barrel" connector (a simple connector used to connect two pieces of coaxial cable with F-connectors together.) Then:
1) Connect your antenna to the long length of new RG6 (through the barrel connector; NO "splitter.") Connect this to TV #1. Make mental or written notes about the reception.
2) Remove the barrel connector and insert the "splitter" instead. Make mental or written notes about the reception. ANY DECREASE IN RECEPTION IS DUE TO THE SPLITTER.
3) Remove the long RG6 and connect the existing coax to that room. Make mental or written notes about the reception. ANY DECREASE IN RECEPTION COMPARED TO #2 ABOVE IS DUE TO THE OLD COAX (or its old F-connectors.)
Do the above for each room (TV.) If the TVs all get different reception when connected as in #1, it's the difference in TVs. If it looks as though the coaxial cable is the culprit (#3), it might be as simple as replacing the old connectors. Cut about 1" off of each end of the cable and put on new F-connectors...
Before last night, family room was the most stable and strongest even with the splitters (RadioShack's four and RMS' two ports; both show similiar results). We used a portable 7" ATSC Prism DTV for this with many tests in the past.

Just in case in the future if needed, is replacing the coax cable connectors difficult and expensive to do? My father/dad/pa and I watched a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQvdNwmLBzs on how to make a coax cable several weeks ago. However, we would have to buy the tools and the parts (coax cables, connectors, etc.) and this would be only an one time to use since we would never use them again. Of course, we have never done it before too so we could mess up and waste times. I guess we could buy them from local retail stores to return them when done. :P
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post #40 of 54
7/22/12 at 2:15pm
I've done so much cable running around my house that I found it was well worth getting the supplies and tools. The Compression fittings are the best (even the ones at Lowes / Home Depot), followed by the crimp on type, and avoid at all costs the ones that simply screw on.
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post #41 of 54
7/22/12 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

They're not new either especially in the farthest room (also uses screw connectors) and TVs were moved to different rooms. Also, all these previous and current coax cables are not long between the coax cable outlets to the tuners.
Did I say they were new? But..... you stated you "changed" the cables. By doing so, you either "changed" something or perhaps temporarily resolved a bad/intermittent connector/connection.

How many times has it been suggested ( in this other threads) to audit each and every coax run, connectors and etc.?
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post #42 of 54
7/22/12 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

I've done so much cable running around my house that I found it was well worth getting the supplies and tools...
Ah, but do you do that often?
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post #43 of 54
7/22/12 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Did I say they were new? But..... you stated you "changed" the cables. By doing so, you either "changed" something or perhaps temporarily resolved a bad/intermittent connector/connection.
How many times has it been suggested ( in this other threads) to audit each and every coax run, connectors and etc.?
Changed only the coax cables in the room. No swaps in the attic and inside the walls. Mystery continues. We're not touching anything again unless this situation goes downhill again. For now, nothing is touched!
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post #44 of 54
7/24/12 at 3:29pm
Guys, not to hijack this guys thread but....

What is the best way to split a coax line for HD TV and for cable internet?

Do I need a 2.4GHz splitter or a TAP splitter or something else?
Just one tv and one router.
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post #45 of 54
7/24/12 at 3:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by svtfast View Post

Guys, not to hijack this guys thread but....
What is the best way to split a coax line for HD TV and for cable internet?
Do I need a 2.4GHz splitter or a TAP splitter or something else?
Just one tv and one router.
IIRC from someone online (don't remember if it was on this forum or not), you can't with OTA and cable on one coax line. Unless your TV is using cable TV, then you can.
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post #46 of 54
7/24/12 at 3:40pm
You did hijack the thread... but nonetheless, you don't need a 2.4 GHz splitter. One rated for 1GHz is just dandy if TV and internet is "cable only".
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post #47 of 54
7/24/12 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

IIRC from someone online (don't remember if it was on this forum or not), you can't with OTA and cable on one coax line. Unless your TV is using cable TV, then you can.

I am sorry guys but I mean HD cable channels.

Coax in from wall
To Moto Cable Modem
To Netgear Router


Where can I get a line for the TV in without screwing the signal?
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post #48 of 54
7/25/12 at 4:57am
Usually the cable company would put your cable modem in at a splitter to it and the other output to the rest of the house, In your case just put the splitter right after the wall, with one split going to the modem and the other to your TV.
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post #49 of 54
7/28/12 at 7:34am
Anytime you split the signal there will be some loss. Putting in a two way splitter you will lose -3.5 dBmv on both your Tx and Rx. Will this cause you problems? It very well could. Why not call your local provider and let them wire your devices correctly even if they charge you it will most likely be cheaper tha you will spend on materials and tools to do the job correctly.
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post #50 of 54
7/28/12 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollTide2011 View Post

Anytime you split the signal there will be some loss. Putting in a two way splitter you will lose -3.5 dBmv on both your Tx and Rx. Will this cause you problems? It very well could. Why not call your local provider and let them wire your devices correctly even if they charge you it will most likely be cheaper tha you will spend on materials and tools to do the job correctly.
True you do lose 3.5dB on the receive, but you don't lose on the transmit, you force the modem to transmit at a higher level. To see if you have enough signal at the modem to split it you can go to http://192.168.100.1/ from your browser and check the levels. Post the levels here and I can tell you what they mean.
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post #51 of 54
7/28/12 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

True you do lose 3.5dB on the receive, but you don't lose on the transmit, you force the modem to transmit at a higher level. To see if you have enough signal at the modem to split it you can go to http://192.168.100.1/ from your browser and check the levels. Post the levels here and I can tell you what they mean.
Can't help it, olyteddy (and you know this);

Actually, you do lose ~3.5dB on the return side as well. Splitters aren't picky about whether the signal is forward or return path -- for a 2-way splitter, ~3.2-3.8dB is lost. Cable modem's, STBs, etc compensate for that loss by transmitting at a higher level.

Just didn't want someone to think something funky about the laws of physics or how splitters work.
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post #52 of 54
7/28/12 at 2:09pm
Doesn't really matter for antenna/OTA since there's nothing to "return". biggrin.gif
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post #53 of 54
7/28/12 at 2:23pm
Won't find too many cable modems on OTA systems...
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post #54 of 54
7/28/12 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post

Won't find too many cable modems on OTA systems...
No kidding....
Sorry. I thought this was related to the OP's situation and not the "hijacker's". My bad.

Anyway, I thought his questions were already answered.
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