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The ending of The Dark Knight Rises - WARNING: SPOILERS - DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN YET - Page 2

post #31 of 145
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Originally Posted by ivanpino View Post

You also have to remember that Bruce also left Blake the bat cave coordinates. Who else?
Yup, I could be persuaded that someone else might have fixed the Bat-signal, but who else would have left Blake detailed information on how to get into the Bat-cave? Of the people that knew the location, including Alfred and possibly Lucius, I don't see anyone besides Wayne wanting (I mean really wanting) Blake to have it. Batman is dead, but Bruce is alive.
post #32 of 145
Movie bored me to tears. I don't see any ambiguity in the ending. It's a major cop-out, plain and simple.

The only ambiguity I see in the movie is what the villains' plans or purpose or agenda or motivations were, and how anything they did in the movie was supposed to accomplish those goals. Because that entire aspect of the script, the very heart of the story, makes no sense at all.
post #33 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The only ambiguity I see in the movie is what the villains' plans or purpose or agenda or motivations were, and how anything they did in the movie was supposed to accomplish those goals. Because that entire aspect of the script, the very heart of the story, makes no sense at all.

The very heart of the story was pretty clear, what exactly made no sense?

As far as "cop-out" goes, if I'm not mistaken all superheroes have something to answer for... being outlaws for starters.
post #34 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Movie bored me to tears. I don't see any ambiguity in the ending. It's a major cop-out, plain and simple.
.

You're entitled to your opinion even if it's wrong smile.gif

I do agree that there isn't much wiggle room in the ending except most people have been taught to fish for more and sometimes there isn't anything (not a bad thing). Searching for all that content takes all the fun out of movies these days. It's like the audience is owed something instead of just accepting things an interpretation or vision (it's ok really).

Too many people want rich, deep, intelligent stories until they get one, you know?
post #35 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The only ambiguity I see in the movie is what the villains' plans or purpose or agenda or motivations were, and how anything they did in the movie was supposed to accomplish those goals.
Same motivation, agenda, plan and purpose that the League of Shadows has always had for Gotham City. It's nothing new, we've seen this before, a couple movies ago. With that in mind, I could understand accusing the film of recycling a villian (LoS) but not of ambiguity. The League's plan for Gotham is clear and well established.
post #36 of 145
Thought this was interesting:
http://geektyrant.com/news/2012/7/24/christopher-nolans-goodbye-letter-to-batman.html
Quote:
The Dark Knight Rises director Christopher Nolan wrote a wonderful heartfelt and honest foreword for the book, The Art and Making of The Dark Knight Trilogy. The book was released in stores on July 20th, and it's basically a goodbye letter to the epic Batman franchise that he created.

I love these Batman films, I loved how Nolan ended it, and I'm excited to see what movies he makes next! Here's what Nolan had to say about his journey through the Batman franchise.

Alfred. Gordon. Lucius. Bruce . . . Wayne. Names that have come to mean so much to me. Today, I’m three weeks from saying a final good-bye to these characters and their world. It’s my son’s ninth birthday. He was born as the Tumbler was being glued together in my garage from random parts of model kits. Much time, many changes. A shift from sets where some gunplay or a helicopter were extraordinary events to working days where crowds of extras, building demolitions, or mayhem thousands of feet in the air have become familiar.

People ask if we’d always planned a trilogy. This is like being asked whether you had planned on growing up, getting married, having kids. The answer is complicated. When David and I first started cracking open Bruce’s story, we flirted with what might come after, then backed away, not wanting to look too deep into the future. I didn’t want to know everything that Bruce couldn’t; I wanted to live it with him. I told David and Jonah to put everything they knew into each film as we made it. The entire cast and crew put all they had into the first film. Nothing held back. Nothing saved for next time. They built an entire city. Then Christian and Michael and Gary and Morgan and Liam and Cillian started living in it. Christian bit off a big chunk of Bruce Wayne’s life and made it utterly compelling. He took us into a pop icon’s mind and never let us notice for an instant the fanciful nature of Bruce’s methods.

I never thought we’d do a second—how many good sequels are there? Why roll those dice? But once I knew where it would take Bruce, and when I started to see glimpses of the antagonist, it became essential. We re-assembled the team and went back to Gotham. It had changed in three years. Bigger. More real. More modern. And a new force of chaos was coming to the fore. The ultimate scary clown, as brought to terrifying life by Heath. We’d held nothing back, but there were things we hadn’t been able to do the first time out—a Batsuit with a flexible neck, shooting on Imax. And things we’d chickened out on—destroying the Batmobile, burning up the villain’s blood money to show a complete disregard for conventional motivation. We took the supposed security of a sequel as license to throw caution to the wind and headed for the darkest corners of Gotham.

I never thought we’d do a third—are there any great second sequels? But I kept wondering about the end of Bruce’s journey, and once David and I discovered it, I had to see it for myself. We had come back to what we had barely dared whisper about in those first days in my garage. We had been making a trilogy. I called everyone back together for another tour of Gotham. Four years later, it was still there. It even seemed a little cleaner, a little more polished. Wayne Manor had been rebuilt. Familiar faces were back—a little older, a little wiser . . . but not all was as it seemed.

Gotham was rotting away at its foundations. A new evil bubbling up from beneath. Bruce had thought Batman was not needed anymore, but Bruce was wrong, just as I had been wrong. The Batman had to come back. I suppose he always will.

Michael, Morgan, Gary, Cillian, Liam, Heath, Christian . . . Bale. Names that have come to mean so much to me. My time in Gotham, looking after one of the greatest and most enduring figures in pop culture, has been the most challenging and rewarding experience a filmmaker could hope for. I will miss the Batman. I like to think that he’ll miss me, but he’s never been particularly sentimental.

by Venkman
post #37 of 145
From this article:
http://geektyrant.com/news/2012/7/22/film-review-the-dark-knight-rises.html
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And while we are on this, Alfred ends up leaving Bruce because he refuses to watch him go down such a self-destructive path as Batman. Sorry, but Alfred Pennyworth would NEVER leave Bruce. At least not for the majority of the film (thanks methos84/Lou for the corrections). Alfred is loyal to the end. No matter what.

I think Alfred left Batman not Bruce.
post #38 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

Thought this was interesting:
http://geektyrant.com/news/2012/7/24/christopher-nolans-goodbye-letter-to-batman.html

thanks for posting that - and now I just ordered that book! smile.gif
post #39 of 145
I thought it was interesting that as Batman Begins borrowed from 1994's The Shadow Dark Knight Rises had some resemblances to the Bond film The World is Not Enough: villain who can't feel pain, heroine that is secretly the main villain and is the romantic partner for the villain who is reduced to her sidekick, and she's French!

Thoug it was a very good sequel though a little long, and definitely pretty dark...
post #40 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Movie bored me to tears. I don't see any ambiguity in the ending. It's a major cop-out, plain and simple.
The only ambiguity I see in the movie is what the villains' plans or purpose or agenda or motivations were, and how anything they did in the movie was supposed to accomplish those goals. Because that entire aspect of the script, the very heart of the story, makes no sense at all.

That darn Hipster talk of yours, Josh. tongue.gif
post #41 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Movie bored me to tears. I don't see any ambiguity in the ending. It's a major cop-out, plain and simple.
The only ambiguity I see in the movie is what the villains' plans or purpose or agenda or motivations were, and how anything they did in the movie was supposed to accomplish those goals. Because that entire aspect of the script, the very heart of the story, makes no sense at all.

Say what you want, but Nolan has been able to accomplish a pretty big feat. He was able to take an almost 3 hour (Batman) movie and fill it full of plot holes, while also limiting the amount of actual Batman scenes and content, and still has the majority of people exclaiming what an epic masterpiece and conclusion it is afterwards. Brilliant!!
post #42 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by maintman View Post

Say what you want, but Nolan has been able to accomplish a pretty big feat. He was able to take an almost 3 hour (Batman) movie and fill it full of plot holes, while also limiting the amount of actual Batman scenes and content, and still has the majority of people exclaiming what an epic masterpiece and conclusion it is afterwards. Brilliant!!

rolleyes.gif

can you elaborate on the plot holes and be more specific? I didn't know there was a requirement for a minimum number of "Batman scenes" either.
post #43 of 145
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Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

The very heart of the story was pretty clear, what exactly made no sense?

For one thing, what was the point of Bane's "citizen's revolution" and "reclaiming the city for the people" nonsense? That came to absolutely nothing in the movie. There was no revolution. The citizens spent the whole movie holed up in their houses, cowering in fear that Bane would blow them up, while the terrorists and criminals ran wild in the streets.

If the plan was to destroy Gotham anyway, why waste six months holding the city hostage? That seems to be entirely a waste of time with no purpose whatsoever.

I get the Christopher Nolan is trying to make a political statement about the 1 Percenters and the Occupy movement and all that, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what that statement is supposed to be. The movie's politics are an embarrassingly muddled and meaningless mess.
post #44 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

For one thing, what was the point of Bane's "citizen's revolution" and "reclaiming the city for the people" nonsense? That came to absolutely nothing in the movie. There was no revolution. The citizens spent the whole movie holed up in their houses, cowering in fear that Bane would blow them up, while the terrorists and criminals ran wild in the streets.

Kinda similar to the Joker's "upset the established order" mantra imo. It was a continuation of this "philosophy". Bane's goal is to bring Gotham down, as was Ra's Al Ghul's, this time of course with the help of Miranda/Talia. The way he presents things at the stadium clearly shows that he doesn't care for the citizens, it's just an excuse for setting a climate of anarchy and fear, until he can ultimately blow up everything. "Some people just want to watch the world burn".
post #45 of 145
To me there was no ambiguity to Alfred seeing Bruce at the end. Bruce was clearly there with Selena to show Alfred he was alive and was ready to live his life without the cowl. There really isn't anything about that montage that hints to an Inception like questionable ending to me.

As far as Bane's "Citizen's Revolution", I interpreted that as an obvious control ploy. He intends to vaporize Gotham, but he can't tell the populace that. He tells the populace the lie to keep them complacent. If the citizens know their fate is to perish in the nuclear blast, they have nothing to lose and would rise up against Bane. The detonator in the hands of a citizen is another lie to give hope.

As far as a 4th Nolan movie is concerned, it won't happen. Before May and the release of The Avengers, I would have entertained this. DC and WB are now fully committed to get a JLA film out (and I don't necessarily agree with their direction). Nolan's Batman films have tried to ground themselves in reality and this world just won't work well with the fantastical aspects of the wider DC universe. Not to mention if any other DC character existed in the Nolan films world, they certainly would have responded to the threat Bane posed. So they will be rebooting the character to fit in with the wider scope of the DC Universe. I can actually see the Nolan films hurting them at this point because they have been such good films and the average moviefan may have problems adjusting to another take on the character so soon.
post #46 of 145
if the bomb had a 6 mile kill radius wouldn't then Bane and Talia both have been killed in the blast?
post #47 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post

As far as Bane's "Citizen's Revolution", I interpreted that as an obvious control ploy. He intends to vaporize Gotham, but he can't tell the populace that. He tells the populace the lie to keep them complacent. If the citizens know their fate is to perish in the nuclear blast, they have nothing to lose and would rise up against Bane. The detonator in the hands of a citizen is another lie to give hope.

This still doesn't answer the fundamental question: Why?

Why does he need to control them? Why does he need to give them false hope? Why does he send food down to the thousands of cops in the sewers that he just tried to kill?

Why do Bane and Talia do anything that they do in the movie, rather than just blow the city up like they say they intend to do eventually anyway?

If the answer is "To taunt Batman while he rots in that prison pit," is that really an efficient or effective strategy? This was really their grand plan all along: to lure Batman out, to break his back but not kill him, to put him in the prison pit, and to spend six months holding a major metropolitian city hostage - all just as a way of saying, "Ha ha! Got you" while they don't even know whether he's still alive or dead halfway across the globe?

Seriously? This is the plot we're supposed to swallow?

Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.
post #48 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorRican View Post

if the bomb had a 6 mile kill radius wouldn't then Bane and Talia both have been killed in the blast?

That's what I gathered. Thus making them more like terrorist martyrs. I guess they don't care to continue their league of shadow work after the end of Gotham City. Speaking of which, once she saw that Gordon and co. were on top of trying to find and stop the bomb, why not go ahead and trigger the detonator then, since she's already been the one in possession of it? Since this bomb now somehow has an exact count down of the core degradation, meltdown, or whatever, why not get out of town a couple days before, blow it up, and continue your LoS objectives and visions for the rest of the world? You should'vbe already made your point to Batman after all these months. Their bad for deciding to completely wait it out.

Edit: Whoops, Josh just hit some of my points while I was away from the computer, ha.
post #49 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

This still doesn't answer the fundamental question: Why?
Why does he need to control them? Why does he need to give them false hope? Why does he send food down to the thousands of cops in the sewers that he just tried to kill?
Why do Bane and Talia do anything that they do in the movie, rather than just blow the city up like they say they intend to do eventually anyway?
If the answer is "To taunt Batman while he rots in that prison pit," is that really an efficient or effective strategy? This was really their grand plan all along: to lure Batman out, to break his back but not kill him, to put him in the prison pit, and to spend six months holding a major metropolitian city hostage - all just as a way of saying, "Ha ha! Got you" while they don't even know whether he's still alive or dead halfway across the globe?
Seriously? This is the plot we're supposed to swallow?
Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

He wants to wipe out a large portion of Gotham and it's citizens. To keep order he is giving them false hope that this "revolution" means something and they have a chance to survive it. It's the same motivation of keeping the police alive. The people see this as Bane acting in good faith. If the general populace knew about the eventual decay and detonation of the bomb there would be mass chaos and there would be no chance his small force could maintain control. He would be forced to destroy Gotham before he and Talia could bring down Batman and exact their revenge.

I assumed Bane/Talia was keeping tabs on Batman (they had satellite TV in there after all). Talia needs to make sure that Batman survived the destruction of the city he worked so hard to save. She wanted to make sure he suffered as much as possible for his actions in BB. It boils down to fanatical revenge. The six month time frame I think was to fit in the Batman's back being broke arc from the comic. It's a stretch, but it is a nice nod to the source material. Talia mentions the completion of the original goal of the League of Shadows in BB. I think this shows her derangement more than anything else. The original goal was for Gotham's destruction to act as a wake up call to bring society back in line. But the original plan was all about subterfuge. No one would have known who or what was behind the city going insane and tearing itself apart. Society was supposed to see this a failing of the system and react accordingly. In this movie tLoS was clearly moving in the open and appears as a fringe terrorist group to the outside world. I can't see it attaining the original goal. So we're back to Talia getting revenge by destroying the City and people that mean the most to Batman and ensuring he is powerless to do anything about it.
post #50 of 145
boy, even going by what the defenders of the film have to say about the plot, it seems a rather large pill to swallow.
post #51 of 145
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Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

boy, even going by what the defenders of the film have to say about the plot, it seems a rather large pill to swallow.
Not really. It's a fun ride, if you'll let it.

Not sure if it's the advent of the interwebz, but have we always nitpicked each and every nuance of a movie? Most of the complaints can and have been explained. Is this how people deem intellectual superiority? Do you seriously believe someone who spent years creating the material didn't think things through?
post #52 of 145
I don't doubt for a minute that the plot was completely thought through before filming. The problem was the way it played out on screen, for me at least, was far too drawn out and eventually became anticlimactic because of that. Both my wife and daughter (my daughter absolutely loved 1 and 2) left 60 minutes in and came back for the last 15. Her comment was "they forgot to put in the action." Catwoman was a total missed opportunity and could not have been more disonnected from the primary storyline until she suddenly decides to become involved in the final sequence of events. There was so much more they could have done with her. I really wanted to get to know more about her just as Nolan did with Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins. I would appreciate a fourth installment as payback for sitting through this one.
post #53 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

I don't doubt for a minute that the plot was completely thought through before filming. The problem was the way it played out on screen, for me at least, was far too drawn out and eventually became anticlimactic because of that. Both my wife and daughter (my daughter absolutely loved 1 and 2) left 60 minutes in and came back for the last 15. Her comment was "they forgot to put in the action." Catwoman was a total missed opportunity and could not have been more disonnected from the primary storyline until she suddenly decides to become involved in the final sequence of events. There was so much more they could have done with her. I really wanted to get to know more about her just as Nolan did with Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins. I would appreciate a fourth installment as payback for sitting through this one.
Your wife and daughter missed an hour and half and thought there should have been more action? Interesting.

FWIW, if there's any consensus, it is that Selina Kyle was awesome so I'm not sure what you were watching. I loved the way Nolan wrapped up the trilogy.
Edited by iamian - 7/25/12 at 10:50pm
post #54 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamian View Post

Your wife and daughter missed an hour and half and thought there should have been more action? Interesting.
FWIW, if there's any consensus, it is that Selina Kyle was awesome so I'm not sure what you were watching. I loved the way Nolan wrapped up the trilogy.
Seriously... what the hell?
Catwoman was great and while Michelle Pfeiffer still reigns supreme in my book I fall in with the rest that really enjoyed Hathaway and her Catwoman, if you want to see a under written/under utilized character just check out Noomi Rapace in the last Sherlock Holmes... all kind of wasted potential in the writing for her character. While the star of DK was certainly Ledger's Joker, the star of DKR was the story which is why I felt it was so spectacular.
post #55 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post


I get the Christopher Nolan is trying to make a political statement about the 1 Percenters and the Occupy movement and all that, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what that statement is supposed to be. The movie's politics are an embarrassingly muddled and meaningless mess.

Are there any politics that aren't muddled and meaningless?
post #56 of 145
Thread Starter 
As far as Bane giving hope to the people, Bane does explain his plan when he exiles Bruce to the pit. Bruce asks why Bane didn't kill him? He indicates that he plans to torture Bruce's soul by giving him false hope of an escape (being able to see the light, but not seemingly being able to make the climb due to his back). At the same time, he wants Bruce to watch in torment on the TV as the people of Gotham are given false hope of a fresh start, only to have that false hope crushed at the last moment as the bomb goes off.

Bane utilized the letter from Gordon to great effect in order to enlist the support of the criminals freed from prison. He had a way of crushing people's spirit, and it was up to some people to "RISE" in order to meet the threat.
post #57 of 145
There are things that I enjoyed about this movie and of course there are things that I need explained. What was the purpose of stealing Bruce Wayne's finger prints and holding up the stock market building? Eventually everyone was going to die from the explosion including Bane and Talia. Fox already showed Talia and gave her access to the nuclear device so it's not like she needed Bruce's finger prints to override anything she already didn't have access to.

The storyline was deep and interesting. I have to give it to the directors and definitely the actors and I appreciate it more after watching the previous iterations of Batman movies. This one was fantastic but TDKR was missing Batman action...you know Batman doing Batman stuff like more fighting and using his plethora of gadgets.

The last thing that really bothered me during the movie was how Bruce/Batman treated Catwoman after what she did to him. She watched him get his arse kicked and moved on with her life. Wasn't even a real apology after Bruce came back at the end asking her for help. That whole bit rubbed me the wrong way. If anything, Bruce should have asked Blake for help since he has been there solving puzzles and helping Gordon and Batman.
post #58 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitu View Post

There are things that I enjoyed about this movie and of course there are things that I need explained. What was the purpose of stealing Bruce Wayne's finger prints and holding up the stock market building?
It was all to execute a trade that bankrupts Bruce Wayne.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitu View Post

Eventually everyone was going to die from the explosion including Bane and Talia. Fox already showed Talia and gave her access to the nuclear device so it's not like she needed Bruce's finger prints to override anything she already didn't have access to.
Talia was only given the access after Bruce finds out he's bankrupt and the control of the energy device would have ttransferred to whoever assumes control of the Wayne Enterprises.
post #59 of 145
If I have learned anything in the years I have frequented the AVS Forum, it is that there seems to be little that Josh Z admits to liking.

But that is OK. Doesn't hurt to have at least a little dissent voiced amongst the gushing. AVS needs at least a few "Cranky Members".

That said, I enjoyed the hell out of TDKR and had no issue with the story, plot, etc. Great ending, IMO - leaves it "open" for possibilities, even if those possibilities only exist in the minds of the viewer (although WB & DC are surely not gonna let the Bat franchise just sit on the shelf, Nolan or no Nolan).
post #60 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

I get the Christopher Nolan is trying to make a political statement about the 1 Percenters and the Occupy movement and all that, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what that statement is supposed to be. The movie's politics are an embarrassingly muddled and meaningless mess.
Have you considered perhaps Nolan isn't making a political statement?
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