Originally Posted by TurboFC3S
You do realize I've taken more measurements than probably all but a handful of people on this forum. Exhaustive measurements are part of my job. But once you take enough measurements, AND do enough listening, you realize measurements only get you in the ballpark. It's pretty easy to build 2 speakers that measure similarly enough that you would mistake them for the same design, but that sound very different. Same with electonics, no we can't sit and say "that sounds like 120db s/n" or "that seems like .005% distortion instead of .001%", but just because we can take some measurements that show very similar performance, don't mistake that for the entire picture.
I also used to be one of you, the current you that is. I used to believe in cable swap, amp swap, disc player swap and etc. Then one day someone taunted me into developing a proper objective listening comparison method. I was the both the developer and the listener. So I invented ABX. It was a learning experience. Now it cannot be unlearned. You may just need to learn the same lessons.
First just a few, then dozens, eventually hundreds and now thousands of people have done their own ABX tests. Subsequently, some of them and others have used one of the other similar bias controlled testing methodologies such as ABC/hr. They are now foundational to documents from relevant international standards committees. They are literally required parts of relevant papers in scholarly journals.
I know the cool thing for an Objectivist to do is to make out that the Subjectivists are a bunch fools with no concept of the science involved, wasting our money based on group think and desire to impress.
Actually, its uncool to make fun of people regardless of their thinking as long as it is thinking. However, it is very common for people who call themselves subjectivists to make out people who disagree with them and are simply trying to take the higher road to be narrow-minded Objectivists as you seem to have done. Fact is that reliance on properly done subjective tests is consistent with being a subjectivist. That is why it is called "Subjective Testing" I would think that any good subjectivist would be insulted by the suggestion that reliability should not be one of their goals.
The knowledge that measurements don't paint the full picture of how our brain interprets sound doesn't mean I have no basis in reality. In fact I'd say the inverse is more likely true, that those who think it does are the ones blissfully ignorant.
But you are mistating the discussion at hand. I would be very happy to accept evidence that was either developed on the test bench or in the listening room (or both) in a reasonable way. Instead, people listen to different music, presented at different SPLs, and often in different rooms on different days and then make sweeping pronouncements.
I'm sure the answer is always bias - I hear a difference because I wanted to or something along those lines. I know better however, and you can believe me or not.
Again your words castrate the arguments against your viewpoint. Is that the high road? The kind of bias you have mentioned is far from a complete discussion of the relevant biases that one sees all over this thread, all over this forum. I listed them above. For extra fun, why not deal with the real arguments, not the ones you made up for easy debating?
Difference is I (and the vase majority of people who let their ears decide) don't attempt to belittle those in the other camp.
If this post I am responding to was anything but belittling, I would be a happy camper. It started out with name-calling. Then it picked just one of a boatload of sources of bias and pretty much just dismissed it.
Of course the listening tests that people throw around here like Frisbees find audible differences. No level matching! Listen to different musical selections! Listen on different days! Listen in different rooms! No bias controls at all.
I was one of you, convinced that amps, dacs, etc of similar measuring sound the same.
Again your post understates and trivializes the opposing view. Electronics doesn't have to measure the same or even similar. All it has to do is meet certain now easily obtained minimal standards.
I'd much rather have some $300 pro sound amp make me happy and pocket the difference
Actually, I'll put up a $229 AVR up against anything for 3, 5, 10, 20 times the price, that at least measures as well.
but what's learned cannot be unlearned.
If that is true, then once you learn a falsehood, you can never be disabused of it. I would hope that at least a few around here would be more flexible and broad minded than that.
But I always keep an open mind.
Not according to what you just said!
Recently a good friend who's ears I trust urged me to buy some power cord that he swore would make a nice improvement. I was sceptical as I've never heard a difference from a power cord, but I bit anyway. I tried it out and didn't hear any difference, so had my wife do the cord swapping so I could blind test and still hear no difference. Just yesterday I and my co-worked did a blind test between 2 amps and wrote our thoughts on paper so as not to influence each other. Funny how our impressions were almost point for point identical.
Let me explain what proper listening test methodologies do to group think. They instantly remove positive bias, everybody knows that. It is interesting to see how negative bias gets removed. There are always one or more people who want to be heroes and hear what others have not heard. This can drive some people to distant, and occasionally productive ends.
The predictable disrespect that comes from the Objectivist camp really wears over time.
That people trivialize the opposition as this post has, and then try to play the disrespect card is an interesting slice of life.
There's no reason for it, and it serves nobody any good.
You don't have all the answers, nobody does.
But one side has more answers that have stood up to formal review.
Science can't explain it all either.
Not this week. But there is little to gain from disrespecting what Science has found to be true and useful.
Acting as though you do have all the answers is a mistake that you'll most likely learn in time.
It appears that someone thinks they have all the answers, and it isn't me! ;-)
In the meantime is it too much to ask to tone down the rhetoric?
Indeed.Edited by arnyk - 7/31/12 at 4:34am