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advice SB12-NSD vs. VTF-2 MK4 - Page 2

post #31 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, no one 'needs' a subwoofer to begin with. You only need enough to achieve your goal. if your goal is modest, a smaller sub will do. However, your goals may change if you hear something with more palpable dynamics. All I know I is I have never went from wanting more to wanting less.

This is getting close to a little too existential for me. Noone needs a home theater period. we could just use the TV speaker However, once we start setting these systems up, then you have some baseline of "need" of what is required to accomplish your goals. Then it gets tricky because you could almost always go bigger, more expensive etc.

We agree about the concept of goals though. That was why I said the SB12 was sufficient for MY needs (and why I did not posit that it would be sufficient for you, or worse (in a fashion that can be far too endemic here), that you would somehow be crazy to believe that the sub that I purchased and enjoy would not be sufficient for you as well). I think that is what we have been talking about.

Although I can imagine that I might enjoy a stronger sub, I live in a loft. My neighbors, in particular my downstairs neighbors, would not enjoy it nearly as much. I can hear the SB12 halfway down the hallway now with my front door closed. More is likely not an option even if I wanted it.
post #32 of 65
Yes, it's all about goals. For people like you Shady, achieving reference levels and higher seems to be the goal, but for you Purpose, those levels of output are not only not needed, but actually unwanted. That's why it's so important for members posting responses to ask:

1) how loud are you going to play it 2) how close are you sitting to the sub 3) what level of visceral impact do you want to feel 4) what material are you playing on it and what expectations do you have 5Z) how big of a box are you willing to accomodate

If people continue to make recommendations without taking into account the above factors, then the likelihood of overbuying or underbuying sub capability/headroom is high. It's presumptuous to assume that everybody wants a VTF15 to preesurize their space with the WOTW pod scene being looped over and over again

It's not even about "oh, you don't know what you are missing. If you heard a powerful system, you're going to want more". My friends and colleagues have serious subs and I have heard them (dual SubM HP for instance), and I'm still perfectly happy with what I have, a single sealed sub for my 2500 cubic foot open room. I choose the perfect sub for my usage and I'm never left wanting for more.
Edited by warpdrive - 8/7/12 at 5:20am
post #33 of 65
To be fair here, I have a room much smaller than the OP and I called and spoke to Chase Home Theater (Craig), Hsu, SVS, and Epik (Chad). In every single situation they recommended the larger subs that had more output and extension as soon as I told them the size of my room. I was originally thinking one Epik Legend and then add a second later, and Chad steered me immediately toward the Epik Empire.

So I think there is some substance into at recommending something based on room size, but of course you have to account for those other concerns and wants from the buyer. I think most of these companies are fearful that in a massive room, you won't be happy with a sub that is specd for a room about 1/3 the size.
post #34 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

To be fair here, I have a room much smaller than the OP and I called and spoke to Chase Home Theater (Craig), Hsu, SVS, and Epik (Chad). In every single situation they recommended the larger subs that had more output and extension as soon as I told them the size of my room. I was originally thinking one Epik Legend and then add a second later, and Chad steered me immediately toward the Epik Empire.
So I think there is some substance into at recommending something based on room size, but of course you have to account for those other concerns and wants from the buyer. I think most of these companies are fearful that in a massive room, you won't be happy with a sub that is specd for a room about 1/3 the size.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. I called SVS and HSU and the recommended larger subs as well.

The issue here is that after I posted that I was happy with my sub in my space and didnt need anything more powerful, the response was essentially: i) other people (who dont live with me and have no bearing on whether I am happy with my setup in my space) have been unhappy with larger subs; and ii) the OP doesnt know what he is missing because he hasn't heard anything larger. Hence the discussion re: goals/ need.
Edited by Purpose - 8/7/12 at 7:36am
post #35 of 65
I'm totally on board with the sentiment that not everyone needs the most powerful bass imaginable.

Can always buy a second SB12 if his output needs change. Or upgrade through SVS' great little program.
post #36 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by xaelia View Post

I'm totally on board with the sentiment that not everyone needs the most powerful bass imaginable.
Can always buy a second SB12 if his output needs change. Or upgrade through SVS' great little program.

I kind of wonder how many subs get dismissed because people don't think it will have enough output. Its seems like no matter what the OP would want someone pushes for bigger and bigger subwoofers. It goes from a small sealed 10" or 12" to SVS PB12 NSD to HSU VTF 15H to SVS Ultra to Seaton Submersive, to dual Seatons, to Capitivator to quad Capitivators to Danley DTS ect......

I think it is good practice to recommend something a little more than what the person was asking about but going from the OP wanting a small 14" cubed sealed sub to recommending a monster sized sub like the HSU VTF 15H is stretching it alittle.
post #37 of 65
This forum in general is for geeks or people passing through so we tend to get a little zealous. Going bigger upfront tends to leave people happy rather than having to upgrade down the road which many of can not do for whatever reason.

butter and jelly please.
post #38 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

I have a large living space (probably over 6000 cu ft - lofted ceilings) and I believe the amp in my old sub (Klipsch KSW-10) just went after four years. Not looking to repair it.
Instead looking for new, better sub. Want something that is great for music and will really compliment my towers (paradigm studio 60s). This will be used in HT, but not my primary concern..

Just order dual SB12-NSD subs.

Make sure you put isolution risers under each sub.
Don't play your system at insanely loud levels and your neighbors should have no reason to complain.
Edited by coolcat4843 - 8/7/12 at 11:16am
post #39 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

sb12 arrived today.
SB12 is plenty for me. biggrin.gif
Music sounds amazing. Movies are good as well. sitting on my couch watching "defiance" and I can feel the bass in some of the louder scenes. I certainly don't need anything more powerful. Absolutely the right decision for my needs.

Did you calibrate your subwoofer?
It makes a BIG difference if you do, with movies and music.
Find a receiver with Audyssey calibration and it will do all the work for you.
post #40 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Did you calibrate your subwoofer?
It makes a BIG difference if you do, with movies and music.
Find a receiver with Audyssey calibration and it will do all the work for you.

I calibrated it with Audyssey (onkyo SR-605). Think I might need to dial it down slightly, but will do that this weekend when I get a second
post #41 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

I calibrated it with Audyssey (onkyo SR-605). Think I might need to dial it down slightly, but will do that this weekend when I get a second

The 605 has Audyssey 2EQ, not MultiEQ and it does not offer correction for subwoofers. You will need to manually calibrate the sub with an SPL meter and some test tones.
post #42 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

The 605 has Audyssey 2EQ, not MultiEQ and it does not offer correction for subwoofers. You will need to manually calibrate the sub with an SPL meter and some test tones.

good to know, thanks. Makes sense given that I thought the bass was a little heavy post calibration. Guess I havent calibrated it. eek.gif
post #43 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

good to know, thanks. Makes sense given that I thought the bass was a little heavy post calibration. Guess I havent calibrated it. eek.gif

2EQ will still set the levels correctly, it just doesn't try to fix the bass problems. You can definitely fine tune to your taste afterwards. Most of the diehards probably want MOAR MOAR and will bump up the bass higher!
post #44 of 65
I went from an Onkyo 605 with 2EQ and now have the Onkyo 818 with XT 32 and its light years ahead of what 2EQ did. The only issue I've noticed is that the volume has to be turned up much high using XT32 compared to 2EQ. XT32 made it seem like it was a totally different sub.
post #45 of 65
Home audio always seems to have me spending more money smile.gif

Something like this receiver would be a pretty big upgrade over the Onkyo 605. I actually own both the 605 and the below one, and I really like the Denon for all the features. This site sells them refurbished with a full manufacturers one year warranty:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR1712/DENON-AVR-1712-7.1-A/V-Surround-Receiver/1.html

This receiver has Audyssey MutiEQ XT which is an excellent EQ system. This chart at the bottom lists the differences between 2EQ, MultiEQ, MultiEQ XT, etc:
http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq
post #46 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Home audio always seems to have me spending more money smile.gif
Something like this receiver would be a pretty big upgrade over the Onkyo 605. I actually own both the 605 and the below one, and I really like the Denon for all the features. This site sells them refurbished with a full manufacturers one year warranty:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR1712/DENON-AVR-1712-7.1-A/V-Surround-Receiver/1.html
This receiver has Audyssey MutiEQ XT which is an excellent EQ system. This chart at the bottom lists the differences between 2EQ, MultiEQ, MultiEQ XT, etc:
http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq

I will check it out, but I think the sub was my last upgrade for a little bit. Wasnt even really planning on doing that until my amp blew (presumably as a result of my move and being plugged in and unplugged. My fault in all likelihood).

Probably would have purchased different mains if I knew the sub was gone as well. Oh well, no regrets though, love all my new speakers.
post #47 of 65
I should say I don't recommend subs for reference level listening. That is absurdly loud, and I rarely listen to anything at those levels myself (although I did watch the new transfer of Total Recall at +1 the other day and it was superb!) I recommend powerful subs to defeat bass nulls. Many times the listening position is in the middle of the room, which is also where the bass will be at its weakest. In many of these instances the bass will be barely heard at all, even if you have your sub cranked it will sound like it isn't even on. Your sub needs enough air displacement to pressurize the entire room so that the bass will be heard everywhere in the room. That is why I stress output and headroom in my recommendations so much- its simply to ensure the user will be able to hear the sub at all. However, if your listening position is not in a dead zone, than you won't need something that energizes the entire space.
post #48 of 65
That's a totally ridiculous way of going about it. It doesn't matter what kind of sub you have, if you are sitting in a null modal area, then you aren't hearing bass. It's better to fix your null by using dual subs than trying to overcome the null by adding output and over pressurizing the room. What good is pressure if you still have a huge suckout in your sound and then too much bass everywhere else. Quite often, you can reduce the effect of weakened bass by minor adjustments to your seating and sub location. I had a huge suckout at 50Hz, and then I moved my couch back one foot and my response is nearly perfectly flat.
Edited by warpdrive - 8/7/12 at 7:58pm
post #49 of 65
If you have a null/cancellation it doesn't matter what sub you have. The sub isn't going to over come the room acoustics. You can crank the volume as loud as you want.
post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I recommend powerful subs to defeat bass nulls. Many times the listening position is in the middle of the room, which is also where the bass will be at its weakest. In many of these instances the bass will be barely heard at all, even if you have your sub cranked it will sound like it isn't even on. Your sub needs enough air displacement to pressurize the entire room so that the bass will be heard everywhere in the room.

I think you might have your ideas a little mixed up, or else I'm full of it, whichever.

AFAIK, pressurization of the room is related to the transfer function/room gain. At some frequency, dependent upon the room, the wave can no longer propagate, and one of the results is that you get pressurization. Above that frequency, it doesn't matter if you have a Captivator or a $100 Polk, the rooms modes will impact response.
post #51 of 65
Sorry to dig up the thread, but I'm on the fence re: the sb12-nsd.

I was really, really surprised to see that this sub performed so well in 6000 ft of room space. My situation is different, I'm closer to 3500. I also have a shared wall with the neighbor so I'm not looking to go crazy with output (though it would be nice to crank it up every once in awhile) Does it make any sense to want decent sub frequency sound at low to moderate volume? smile.gif

This will be paired with Ascend CMT-340SEs, which I love so far... I just don't have a sub at all. 50% HT, 40% Gaming, 10% Music.

Was looking at Rythmik but their FV12 is OOS/redesigning. I was also considering getting some sort of HSU since I'm within 45min driving distance of their place. Budget is probably around $700 max. The SB12-NSD seem a little overpriced to me actually, but that's probably because shipping seems to be baked in.

Would love to hear if the SB12-NSD is still satisfactory after some time listening. Or any other thoughts.
Edited by quasitime - 10/4/12 at 6:42pm
post #52 of 65
I just got my SB-12 for my 3500 ft room yesterday afternoon! I had tried to replace my tired ACI Titan with a supercube2000, and after one night of that I went online and bought the SB-12. WAF is crucial here. The SB-12 is bigger than the supercube but better proportioned with the rest of my stuff, and looks petite. NIce finish. great WAF.

My ceilings go from about 8 - 11 feet with a peak in the middle. 17' one wall, the other measure is 20' which includes a little "hallway" at the end and the it is open to the kitchen dining room behind the TV/speakers. I have PSB Synchrony 2 mains, with matching center, and a pair of Imagine mini's on the way for surrounds.

I have the SB-12 immediately to the left of the left tower, which is about 4' from the left wall and mere inches from the back wall. I'd say the room is 3500 cubic feet although a lot of that is outside the viewing/listening area.

I'm using a Pioneer Elite SC-61 AV receiver. Set the sub volume to 12:00 and MCACC calibrated sub volume to .5 db (right on the money). Sub crossover is defeated. Phase at zero.

First thing I did was watch Rattle and Hum because I wanted to hear a dedicated .1 music channel. And now I am listening to my 256kbps itunes library over appleTV. I'm playing my speakers on small, 80hz crossover.

I'm EXTREMELY PLEASED with the music performance. absolutely delighted. It is fast and accurate and plenty loud. The integration with my mains is PERFECT (good job of AVR bass management and a lucky placement maybe. From an integration standpoint, it sounds as if I'm playing my mains full range. Nothing less than perfect.

For movies in this space... my jury is still out. I have not had a chance to really test it at high volume. I played a little with The Matrix (old DVD) but could not play it really loud. I'm not sure if I want more slam or not. I just need to play around with some different material. I don't have a really good reference point. I'll get back to you when I've had a chance, maybe I'll play U571 when my wife goes on an errand.

So far - Matrix medium volume... the sub impact was a little underwhelming but I was VERY TIRED and it was very late. I'm not sure that if I got a ported box or the 13" sealed box that it would make the difference. I think if I was a bachelor, I'd probably have a little bit bigger ported sub for infrasonic bragging rights - but I haven't decided whether I need it enough to endure an angry wife.

The SB-12 is a better sub than the 15 year old Titan it replaced... not sure how it would fare head to head with a new one (Titan has more cubic feet in the box but also dated technology I think).

So far I'm happy with SB-12 for my circumstances but have not ruled out returning it, upgrading it, or adding another. Not sure yet. I guess we'll see how it does with U571 or the remainder of The Matrix or some other action movies.

For music... I'm very happy, borderline blown away... and I might just stand pat on that basis alone.

*update*: I know Kung Fu" that fight scene was great, the helicopter crash was handled with aplomb. I think for me, in MY 3500 ft room ... it is looking like a HT + music keeper.

I'm going to watch some more loud movies before my wife gets home!!! But I don't know if I can justify spending 2.5 times the price for the 13" ultra. Maybe... but I don't feel like I'm lacking right now, especially since this is a "living room home theater" and WAF is a huge consideration.
Edited by dozer95667 - 10/6/12 at 1:14pm
post #53 of 65
Looking forward to the update!
post #54 of 65
very useful review, i am most interested in HT in a 3500 room, so please let' me know your thoughts after new movies ...
post #55 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by seamount View Post

very useful review, i am most interested in HT in a 3500 room, so please let' me know your thoughts after new movies ...

After U571 and Fifth Element and The Matrix, I think it is a keeper... I'm really happy with the movie presentation. That's not to say I'd want to get in a shoot-out with a bigger ported box - I have seen U571 with a guy who had the big svs cylinder... really could crack concrete. I don't have THAT kind of slam by any means, but I don't need to have it. This sub represents the LFE channel just great for my taste and it plays rock music very loud. I even cranked up some Black Eyed Peas with electronic effects and played it LOUD... was pretty amazing and I enjoyed a lot of stuff that I had not heard over my car stereo for sure!

My opinion - it is just amazing for music, without flaw. I'm really excited to give my AV receiver some relief driving low frequencies and in fact it makes the system a little less boomy than playing my mains full range. And I think it is completely competent for HT but won't have you saying "holy cow what a shaker" as a cylinder or big ported box might. But competent and classy.

I don't know if this picture will come across, but it shows that the SB-12 is very unobtrusive just to the left of the left main speaker. I'm sitting only 14 feet straight in front of it so maybe that affects my perception. Obviously I could probably stuff a PB-12 or more in the corner but I don't know that it would improve my life enough to be worth the unhappy wife (she liked the supercube 2000 best).

If I was single I'd probably call SVS and ask them what I could expect to gain by going to a second sb12, or a ported box, or an ultra 13... but it's moot for me I think and I'm not sure on balance (music + ht) I really want more sub.

Try it.. you can always return it (and it is light... the return shipping cost/hassle would not be prohibitive if you decided you don't like it enough).

post #56 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by dozer95667 View Post

... but it's moot for me I think and I'm not sure on balance (music + ht) I really want more sub.

I've learned that questions like this are asked because the person who is asking the question, knows the answer to the question is yes but want's the answer to be no. In your case, satisfaction will only come with more subwoofer.

"More Cowbell"

You know you want to.

...........biggrin.gif
post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I've learned that questions like this are asked because the person who is asking the question, knows the answer to the question is yes but want's the answer to be no. In your case, satisfaction will only come with more subwoofer.
"More Cowbell"
You know you want to.
...........biggrin.gif

You married? Is your HT in the main living area? If both are yes, and you have a big ported box subwoofer or two... my hat is off to you! You married well!!
post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by dozer95667 View Post

You married? Is your HT in the main living area? If both are yes, and you have a big ported box subwoofer or two... my hat is off to you! You married well!!

Married? Yes.

Home Theater in main living area? Yes.

Two subs? Not ported but both are with a second passive radiator, so yes.

Married well? Actually, I got big time luck and married above myself. biggrin.gif
post #59 of 65
For dual sub, I don't think going with a Y cable is a good idea = DATA LOSS

Not good. Stick with a single sub.

Meanwhile, I do like my SVS SB12-NSD. No complaints.
post #60 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamAnoobieCheez View Post

For dual sub, I don't think going with a Y cable is a good idea = DATA LOSS
Not good. Stick with a single sub.
Meanwhile, I do like my SVS SB12-NSD. No complaints.

How would an analog Y cable cause data loss?
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