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Gabe Newell of Valve: Windows 8 “a catastrophe” - Page 2

post #31 of 56
I remember a while back Epic started saying that they would reduce or drop the price of the unreal engine for indy developers. the Indy was supposed to get all the money from the first sales of the game. when they broke a certain number of sales then they were supposed to fork over their percent. Did this ever happen?
Would be nice if all platforms had this attitude to help indy's out.
post #32 of 56
Thread Starter 
First Shot in the War?
Quote:
Valve's distaste for Windows 8 has led the company to take on an increasing interest in Linux, and the new Valve Linux blog shows that, with some work, the Source Engine actually runs faster on it than it does on Windows. The company used a testbed with an Intel i7 3930k, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680, and 32GB of RAM to pit Left 4 Dead 2 on Windows 7 against Ubuntu 12, and the results are rather interesting.

At first, Valve's Linux port of Left 4 Dead 2 ran at only 6 FPS on the i7 machine, but after tweaking the game to make effective use of the efficient characteristics of the Linux kernel and OpenGL, the Valve Linux team was able to eke out a much higher 315 FPS. Using the same machine running Windows 7 and Direct3D, the same game ran at 270.6 FPS, or roughly 14 percent slower.

After optimizing the Source Engine for the Linux platform, Valve wondered why OpenGL was outperforming Direct3D at a technical level. Their research found that, on the same hardware, there are "a few additional microseconds [of] overhead per batch in Direct3D which does not affect OpenGL," indicating that Direct3D may not be as efficient as Microsoft would like developers to believe. There are still challenges ahead for the Valve Linux team, however, as the state of Linux graphics card drivers is still a tumultuous affair. The team has yet to work with AMD and Nvidia, but collaboration with Intel's engineers took place just last month.

By Evan Rodgers


Smartest people in the room?
Quote:
traycer says:

Truly, this means 2013 will tbe the Year of Linux on the Desktop! Just like 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008, …

Posted on Aug 02, 2012 | 11:49 AM EDT reply
danharibo's reply:

One of these days!

Posted on Aug 02, 2012 | 11:50 AM EDT reply
Astromanaught's reply:

also, flying cars.

Posted on Aug 02, 2012 | 11:51 AM EDT

post #33 of 56
How closed will Win8 be? Can you only install apps that come from their app store?
Edited by sync - 8/2/12 at 12:48pm
post #34 of 56
Win8 is exactly Win7 with Metro bolted on as an option. Everything Win7 does, Win8 still does. The discussion is not about Win8, but about the direction of Win9 and 10 that Win8 points to. The question is "Does Microsoft have the balls to drop the desktop in Win9? What about 10?", in which case their app store will be the only place to get stuff.

Win8 is no more closed than 7. There is just a lot of sky-is-falling talk going on in the industry, which end users are then running with and making ill-informed comments on.
post #35 of 56
Show of hands: Who in this thread is actually running Windows 8, and therefore knows what they're talking about? And who is just regurgitating what the demonstrably terrible at their jobs gaming press is telling them because controversy equals page views?
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Show of hands: Who in this thread is actually running Windows 8, and therefore knows what they're talking about? And who is just regurgitating what the demonstrably terrible at their jobs gaming press is telling them because controversy equals page views?

Running Win 8 on my laptop and liking it so far. But I agree with you about the press going crazy over this.

This was posted on Twitter an hour ago about Kotaku
Quote:
Markus Persson ‏@notch

Just this week a reporter from them tried to get me to talk bad about Windows 8, for example. Don't like the store idea, like the rest it.

I have a feeling it's the same for Gabe and Blizzard, their comments being taken out of context and applied to Win 8 as a whole to create a media firestorm.
post #37 of 56
I don't think it's even a matter of having the balls to drop the desktop in Windows 9. I think that it'll always need to be an option, even if there's an explosion of Metro apps over the next few years. People will continue to need things like AutoCAD, or Premiere, or even business software like Microsoft's own Dynamics offerings. Now, there might be a valid question about whether it's there or not in a consumer product, but for professionals, I feel like there always will be a version that includes a desktop. I know that for myself, I'll almost definitely always continue to use the version that contains a desktop.

I think part of the confusion is that people don't really know the difference between Windows 8 and Windows RT at this juncture. On an ARM-based device running Windows RT, yes, everything will be locked down. On the actual x86 (or x64) Windows 8, you're free to use the computer the same way you always have. It's just that if you only use Metro apps, those will only be available from the Windows Store. Steam will still work perfectly.

As for me personally, I couldn't care less about other people's opinions about Windows 8, whether it's Gabe Newell, Notch, or the President's for that matter. I ran Windows 8 dual-boot for the Developer Preview and mostly stayed in Windows 7, because it wasn't ready. With the Consumer Preview, I kept dual-boot, but it mostly became my daily driver. Now with the Release Preview, it's the only OS I have installed.

To be honest, it's exactly what I want in an operating system, and the Surface Pro, at initial inspection from the presentation, appears to be exactly what I want for the form factor. For me personally, I love that I will be able to have only one device which I can use on the go as a simple touchscreen tablet similar to the iPad, and when I'm at home or at the office I can plug in a keyboard and mouse and have full access to all the functionality I need in those situations. I've got a separate tablet and laptop, and because there's things that the tablet can't do, at the moment I have to make a conscious decision of which one I'll need before I travel somewhere. With something like the Surface Pro, I don't have to decide. And the fact that I can still run my hundreds of Steam games is just the icing on the cake. In fact, I've heard the majority of complaints coming (not from here, but in general) about using Metro on a large monitor. Personally, I've even had zero issues with that on a 23" 1080p display. If you don't like the hot corners, there's still the Start button on your keyboard, despite it being gone from the taskbar. And since you can still pin any programs to the taskbar as well, I think people are sort of overreacting. But, if they don't like it, that's their prerogative. It just doesn't affect the fact that it's pretty much exactly what I want.*

*The preview Metro apps still need a lot of work though, I hope the RTM versions are better.
post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Win8 is exactly Win7 with Metro bolted on as an option.
I thought Metro always boots up by default. Then you if you want a traditional desktop you have to switch to that.

[Edit] I'm downloading the Win8 Preview. I'm going to see for myself what it is like.
Edited by sync - 8/2/12 at 1:58pm
post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by sync View Post

I thought Metro always boots up by default. Then you if you want a traditional desktop you have to switch to that.

It does, then you just clikc the tile that says 'Desktop' and ignore Metro from then on. That's how I've been using it on my laptop. Aside from that, the boot time is great, far better than Win 7. Nvidia already had Win 8 specific drivers. Everything else works fine on Win 7 drivers so far.

Calling Win 8 just Win 7 with Metro bolted on is pretty much the most basic explanation, but it's the little things that I like. The smoothness of the OS as a whole, the fact that when my wallpaper changes, the Aero UI alters its translucent colors to fit with it, even some parts of Metro are ok. Honestly though, with the upgrade to 8 Pro only being $40 bucks, I'm going to do it for my laptop. My desktop I'm going to leave on 7 Ult for a while.
post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

It does, then you just clikc the tile that says 'Desktop' and ignore Metro from then on. That's how I've been using it on my laptop. Aside from that, the boot time is great, far better than Win 7. Nvidia already had Win 8 specific drivers. Everything else works fine on Win 7 drivers so far.
Calling Win 8 just Win 7 with Metro bolted on is pretty much the most basic explanation, but it's the little things that I like. The smoothness of the OS as a whole, the fact that when my wallpaper changes, the Aero UI alters its translucent colors to fit with it, even some parts of Metro are ok. Honestly though, with the upgrade to 8 Pro only being $40 bucks, I'm going to do it for my laptop. My desktop I'm going to leave on 7 Ult for a while.

On the desktop side, I love the new copy/move window, amongst a bunch of other small things.
post #41 of 56
Thread Starter 
We need more page views.
post #42 of 56
What is the point of removing the Start button in the desktop?

How do you find out what Win 8 desktop apps are installed?
post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by sync View Post

What is the point of removing the Start button in the desktop?
How do you find out what Win 8 desktop apps are installed?

The Start page? Installed apps are pinned there?
post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

The Start page? Installed apps are pinned there?
Duh. I thought that was only for Metro apps.
post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by sync View Post

Duh. I thought that was only for Metro apps.
Nah, it puts them all on the right hand side of the page (which will become scrollable side to side when there are enough app shortcuts) Honestly I haven't bothered much with the start page. I like it enough for the actual Metro Apps, but for anything else, I'll use the regular desktop with shortcuts/taskbar launching.
post #46 of 56
Hitting the Windows key brings up the Start menu, just like it always has. It's just a different shape now. Or you can move your mouse to the bottom left corner to open Start, just as always. The only difference is you no longer have a Start icon eating up pin-able icon space on your taskbar.
post #47 of 56
A voice of dissent towards Valve's plans to develop Steam on Linux:
Quote:
Richard M Stallman – one of the founding fathers of the Free Software movement – has expressed anxiety over games company Valve’s plan to bring their gaming wares to Linux.

The bone of contention in Stallman’s eyes is Valve’s frequent use of Digital Rights Management (DRM) within its software. Rights-encumbered software is, Stallman writes on his blog, ‘unethical’.

“They deny freedom to their users. If you want freedom, one requisite for it is not having non-free programs on your computer.”

DRM is intended to prevent unauthorised copying or distribution of game titles – a mechanism vital the survival of many digital content distributers.

Linus Torvalds, the creator of the Linux kernel, has already ‘Ok’d’ the notion of companies releasing copy-protected software - despite the fact that he does not personally like the idea.

But Stallman isn’t oblivious to the benefits that this move will bring, admitting that ‘availability of popular non-free programs on GNU/Linux [could] boost adoption of the system’.

“[This move] might encourage GNU/Linux users to install these games, and it might encourage users of the games to replace Windows with GNU/Linux. My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm. But there is also an indirect effect: what does the use of these games teach people in our community?”
post #48 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

A voice of dissent towards Valve's plans to develop Steam on Linux:

I saw that. It's kind of pot meeting kettle if you ask me. Valve hates the possible walled garden of Windows and Linux hates the possible walled garden of Steam. I think nobody has to really worry about.
post #49 of 56
I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with it too.....

Steam Expands Beyond Games
post #50 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post

I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with it too.....
Steam Expands Beyond Games
Indeed.
post #51 of 56
I personally have used Windows 8 and like it, even their marketplace. If they use their marketplace to be a closed system in the future like some have said then that will indeed be a sad day. Open source is definitely the future, and I can't wait until OpenGL is available on all new games like DirectX is. When that day comes I will ditch Windows permanently for Linux. And anyone who asks, "Who wants it?", regarding Linux systems, doesn't work with computers. If you used Linux before you may not have liked it, but considering that it's free and open source you had to have some amount of respect for what those programmers are doing.
post #52 of 56
Thread Starter 
I used it for 20 minutes the other night and squashed all the complaints I've been reading about the start button and so on. I even installed Steam and ran a game. Granted this was in a VM so no 3D games but still. Catastrophe indeed.
post #53 of 56
Even after WIn8's release, yet another gaming developer (Croteam's CTO) expresses a strong dislike for the direction the OS is taking the industry:
Quote:
I have to apologize in advance for keeping off topic, but I would very much like to clear this one thing. I think that this is very important as there are "under the hood" motions related to Windows 8 that are hidden and not well understood even by many developers (yet), and certainly not by most gamers. Pardon me if this turns out to be a long post, but it is a complex issue. I'll highlight only the most important sentences if you want to skip the details.

Gabe Newel did not overreact. What you don't see here is that, under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS. There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:

One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!

I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!

If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they've banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam.[*] They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. But even if these terms were not there, this is still a certification system. With all of its downsides, including uncertain release dates, rare and late patches, and everything turning out to be more expensive and sucking more.

While, theoretically, desktop applications are exempt from these requirements, it looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique. A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed. When that happens it will be too late.

I would not invest into supporting the tiled UI apps (which MS now conveniently calls "Windows Store apps" - does that ring a bell?), until MS removes the requirement that they have to be shipped through Windows Store on desktop at least - and thereby remove the requirement of certifying them with MS. Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished.

Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of "charms" even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to "get used" to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.

So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I'll skip on that one.

---[*] Yes, I know that the PEGI-16 limit is supposed to be lifted to PEGI-18, but this is only an announcement, and we didn't see the new terms yet. There could still be another fly in the ointment. Note that besides the bare rating, they also disproved profanities, drug references, and various other things like that in terms that are separate from the rating requirement. If they don't remove all of that, a game may satisfy the ratings yet still fail the cert. Worst thing is for such things you simply cannot know what they will allow until you submit, which is terrible.
post #54 of 56
Thread Starter 
The same thing that everybody loves about Apple....
post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

The same thing that everybody loves about Apple....
Yeah, the thing that caused me to switch from iOS to Android.
post #56 of 56
It is most definitely an overreaction. Ultimately what this comes down to is that Windows 8 has a NEW feature that was never previously available (not in Windows 7 or prior). This NEW feature is not fully open and compatible with Steam or outside applications (I refuse to call desktop programs "apps"). BUT, the old way - that everyone is already used to - still works! You can still have a tile-based link for Steam or any other application on your PC not purchased through the Microsoft Store, but it will just be considered a desktop application instead of a Metro/Tile/Modern application.

BFD. NOTHING changes for people going from 7 to 8 in this regard.

EDIT: If you were expecting to see something really fancy with the tile system like live updates and other Steam info/ads like Gabe wants to do with it, then I could see where you'd have a bug up your arse.
Edited by nathanddrews - 11/6/12 at 8:59am
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