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How do i optimize performance?

post #1 of 28
7/27/12 at 1:54am
Thread Starter 
Hi all.

I have recently moved into a new flat and am considering converting the living room into a dedicated home theater/ media room. The area is 18' long 10' wide, with the ceiling around 9' tall. The four walls are brick with plaster on it and the ceiling and the floor is cement/concrete. Need some help in understanding what kind of acoustical treatment is best for the structure. Cheers!smile.gif
Edited by Ankur - 8/15/12 at 10:04am
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post #2 of 28
8/7/12 at 2:11am
Thread Starter 

Layout for the home theater. Let me know what you think. Will share more details soon.biggrin.gif
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post #3 of 28
8/7/12 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
Equipment for the HT:-

Purchased:-

LCD/LED - Sony 40" HX- 850
AVR - Denon 1912
Speakers:- KEF Q500 (Front)
Blue Ray player- Sony BDP S490
DTH- Tata Sky+

Planned:-

120" display screen( brand To be decided) suggestions are welcome
Projector: Panasonic PT - AR100U LCD Proj, 1080P, 2800 lumens
Speakers:- Center KEF Q200, Surround KEF Q800 Sub woofer TBD

The above are in the planning stage and need to be purchased. All suggestions are welcome.smile.gif
Edited by Ankur - 10/27/12 at 12:16am
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post #4 of 28
8/8/12 at 4:34am
Thread Starter 
Picked up the Denon 1912 today.

Need advice on matching speakers...rolleyes.gif
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post #5 of 28
8/12/12 at 9:28am
Thread Starter 
Some more details that i have put together for the HT.
The back wall with surround speakers and the projector

motorized Projection screen to fall from the ceiling.

40" TV for regular viewing.

The solid lines above the sofa represent 0 degrees view for someone sitting there.

Do share your thoughts. Reach out for any questions. The wiring for speakers and projector starts tomorrow. Will post the actual pictures.biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 28
8/12/12 at 10:50am
I am not a great expert but I can share some of my findings... Since you have all concrete construction, you need to decide whether you want to do room within a room construction or not.... But based on my observation during my time in Bombay, I can bet that most of the sound should be concealed with the concrete envelope... Since you dont want the sound to reflect from the surfaces, consider putting some acoustic panels on the main seating area of the living room.... based on the construction and layout of the house, I would suggest putting atleast 1" OC703 2X2 Panels for absorption..... I would put them right behind the 2 seat sofa and opposite walll on both sides of the TV and some Tri-corner bass traps on the corners next to the main speakers since they would take care of the low frequency sound.... Also, i would put a nice heavy thick carpet below the seating area since you would want to dampen the sound... If you want to keep the sound within your living room, then you also need to put a heavy door with door bottoms since they would conceal the space... you can also get WAF if you decide on colored Fabric for the wall panels instead of the traditional black ones or generic light absorbing panels... IMO, colored fabric with some design of trees and birds will also look more pleasing in this kind of setting.... if you can, try to put just one or two celing panels as well but The MOST important thing in my point of view is that try to keep everything symmetric (In terms of speaker placement and the panels for sound absorption and reflection)

The experts will chime in but this is my understanding of the acoustic treatment.... since this is all concrete, it should not be much of a concern.... if you got time, you can take time to read Ethan Winers' articles on acoustic treatments as well and look at some of his products to give u a better idea.... thanks

Zammy
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post #7 of 28
8/15/12 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
Thanks Zammy,

The advice is helpful. Will keep you posted once the place is set up.

I have run into a little trouble, Can't mount the projector on ceiling, as it requires to be extended at least 1.5 ft below the ceiling and it will spoil the looks of the living area.mad.gif

Need suggestions on alternate arrangements
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post #8 of 28
8/15/12 at 11:10am
Mount on back wall or on the side wall

I have a setup just like you are planning, I know the pain of sacrifice's of functionality vs looks (went with inceiling speakers).....

Living Room.jpg 750k .jpg file
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post #9 of 28
8/15/12 at 12:41pm
I saw your original post a couple weeks ago, and I thought, "this looks like a pretty solid living room setup. You've thought through the dual screen and multiple uses. I don't know anything about your equipment, so I'll keep my mouth shut."

Now that you're having some glitches, maybe my perspective is more useful, so here's some thoughts.

Is the vertical placement problem because of the fan? Depending on your budget and ingenuity, you may be able to use an adjustable mount of some kind (powered lift) so that the projector can be close to the ceiling when you're not using it. Also, investigate the vertical lens shift feature; by shifting the image down on the wall, you may be able to clear the fan (if that's the problem). In fact, you will probably enjoy watching the screen lower anyway.

Unfortunately, I don't think lewke's suggestion to mount the projector off to the side will be useful, since the projector only has 25% horizontal lens shift. If you were to place the projector like lewke did in his attached picture, you'd need to aim the projector at the screen to get the image on it, but then the projector would not be aligned correctly. Whenever the projector is not totally "normal" (that is perpendicular in all planes - both horizontal and vertical) to the screen, some sort of optical distortion will occur - generally the image comes out shaped like a trapezoid, not a rectangle. Most projectors have a keystone correction feature designed to correct this, but the image manipulation that goes on degrades the image and should be avoided at almost all costs. Try it and see.

So what other options might there be? Well the projector is generally table-top mountable. You may need to invert the image and adjust the vertical lens shift, but it can work from some place near the chair, but that will be inconvenient. You probably won't want to leave the projector out in the middle of the room all the time, for both aesthetic and practical reasons. Without exact dimensions other solutions are more difficult to predict, but you may be able to wall mount (shelf mount near the wall?) the projector near the door and dining table, depending on the length of the room and your image size. In some cases a vertical compression anamorphic lens can be used both to get a cinemascope screen ratio and simultaneously lengthen the throw. (check out the CIH - constant image height - subforum)

Now back to your original concern - the acoustics. You can expect that your space, if decorated as shown and constructed of masonry, will be excessively "live" and suffer some acoustic problems, like flutter echo, and maybe some very strong early reflections that will interfere with your hearing sounds clearly. There are a couple common areas of wall that reflect sound in troubling ways. The walls directly adjacent to the speakers (directly behind them on the front wall, and on the side wall near each speaker) will reflect sound that will interfere with the sound at your seating positions changing the frequency response. These problems can be largely avoided by applying sound absorbing material on those sections of wall. Zammy's suggestion of OC703 is pretty good.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do is to start with controlled directivity speakers, and toe them in. Then treat the wall under the TV so that the sound field is more symmetrical. If you have flutter echo, I would recommend continuing the treatments above the sofa and above/around the TV.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just some dude on the internet, right?

Good luck!

Fred
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post #10 of 28
8/15/12 at 2:22pm
I was under the assumption the projector hadn't been purchased yet......thus giving you an outside the box (most people don't consider such an offset projector) options......but yeah, back wall is your best bet for best aesthics.....
Edited by lewke - 8/15/12 at 2:34pm
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post #11 of 28
8/16/12 at 12:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewke View Post

Mount on back wall or on the side wall
I have a setup just like you are planning, I know the pain of sacrifice's of functionality vs looks (went with inceiling speakers).....
Living Room.jpg 750k .jpg file

I considered the suggestion, and it looks like this is going to work for me. I am placing a power point for the plug on the back wall and extending the HDMI wire till there.

Thanks Lewke

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post #12 of 28
8/16/12 at 3:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewke View Post

I was under the assumption the projector hadn't been purchased yet......thus giving you an outside the box (most people don't consider such an offset projector) options......but yeah, back wall is your best bet for best aesthics.....

You are right. I am yet to purchase the projector. Now that i have decided to mount the projector on the back wall, i may not need to consider a projector with a lot of horizontal shift smile.gif
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post #13 of 28
8/16/12 at 11:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I saw your original post a couple weeks ago, and I thought, "this looks like a pretty solid living room setup. You've thought through the dual screen and multiple uses. I don't know anything about your equipment, so I'll keep my mouth shut."
Now that you're having some glitches, maybe my perspective is more useful, so here's some thoughts.
Is the vertical placement problem because of the fan? Depending on your budget and ingenuity, you may be able to use an adjustable mount of some kind (powered lift) so that the projector can be close to the ceiling when you're not using it. Also, investigate the vertical lens shift feature; by shifting the image down on the wall, you may be able to clear the fan (if that's the problem). In fact, you will probably enjoy watching the screen lower anyway.
Unfortunately, I don't think lewke's suggestion to mount the projector off to the side will be useful, since the projector only has 25% horizontal lens shift. If you were to place the projector like lewke did in his attached picture, you'd need to aim the projector at the screen to get the image on it, but then the projector would not be aligned correctly. Whenever the projector is not totally "normal" (that is perpendicular in all planes - both horizontal and vertical) to the screen, some sort of optical distortion will occur - generally the image comes out shaped like a trapezoid, not a rectangle. Most projectors have a keystone correction feature designed to correct this, but the image manipulation that goes on degrades the image and should be avoided at almost all costs. Try it and see.
So what other options might there be? Well the projector is generally table-top mountable. You may need to invert the image and adjust the vertical lens shift, but it can work from some place near the chair, but that will be inconvenient. You probably won't want to leave the projector out in the middle of the room all the time, for both aesthetic and practical reasons. Without exact dimensions other solutions are more difficult to predict, but you may be able to wall mount (shelf mount near the wall?) the projector near the door and dining table, depending on the length of the room and your image size. In some cases a vertical compression anamorphic lens can be used both to get a cinemascope screen ratio and simultaneously lengthen the throw. (check out the CIH - constant image height - subforum)
Now back to your original concern - the acoustics. You can expect that your space, if decorated as shown and constructed of masonry, will be excessively "live" and suffer some acoustic problems, like flutter echo, and maybe some very strong early reflections that will interfere with your hearing sounds clearly. There are a couple common areas of wall that reflect sound in troubling ways. The walls directly adjacent to the speakers (directly behind them on the front wall, and on the side wall near each speaker) will reflect sound that will interfere with the sound at your seating positions changing the frequency response. These problems can be largely avoided by applying sound absorbing material on those sections of wall. Zammy's suggestion of OC703 is pretty good.
In my opinion, the best thing you can do is to start with controlled directivity speakers, and toe them in. Then treat the wall under the TV so that the sound field is more symmetrical. If you have flutter echo, I would recommend continuing the treatments above the sofa and above/around the TV.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just some dude on the internet, right?
Good luck!
Fred

Hey Fred!

Thanks for the suggestions. i definitely didn't want to go with the table top setting or the keystone correction. Am going ahead with the back wall mounting option.
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post #14 of 28
8/16/12 at 10:25pm
I am assuming you mean 92" diagonal?
May seem large but trust me, it isn't. The first screen I bought was a 92 and it is laying in box behind my sofa collecting dust.
At 10' wide you have more than enough room for a 120". You can always project smaller on a large screen but you can't project larger on a small screen.
Leave the screen until last, watch a few movies on the wall, then decide. You tend to grow accustomed to the size and want something larger.
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post #15 of 28
8/16/12 at 10:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

I am assuming you mean 92" diagonal?
May seem large but trust me, it isn't. The first screen I bought was a 92 and it is laying in box behind my sofa collecting dust.
At 10' wide you have more than enough room for a 120". You can always project smaller on a large screen but you can't project larger on a small screen.
Leave the screen until last, watch a few movies on the wall, then decide. You tend to grow accustomed to the size and want something larger.

Hmm... Although i would love to go for a bigger size, i am just worried if it'll leave enough space for the speakers confused.gif
Guess, i'll keep the screen as the last buy smile.gif
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post #16 of 28
8/18/12 at 6:03am
Thread Starter 
Here are some pictures post the wiring and false ceiling:-

Back wall: Cable left for back surround, and HDMI Cable for Projector

Left wall: Cable for surround and left front speakers

Right wall: All the cables to connect to the AVR and the surround cable

Projection wall: Cable for the front left and right. This will have a big french window, thick curtains to cut the light and then the projection screen that'll drop from the ceiling.

biggrin.gif
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post #17 of 28
10/6/12 at 12:32pm
Thread Starter 


It's been a while... Sharing the latest pic of the screening area.

whats done:-
  1. wiring & lighting
  2. false ceiling
  3. first few coats of paint

What's to come:-

  1. AV gear &
  2. curtains

Do let me know if you have any suggestions. Thanks!smile.gif
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post #18 of 28
10/6/12 at 3:14pm
I wonder if the sliding glass behind the screen may give you problem with rattles when the speakers are firing? Maybe something to double check with the builders since it looks like it was recently completed?
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post #19 of 28
10/6/12 at 10:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

I wonder if the sliding glass behind the screen may give you problem with rattles when the speakers are firing? Maybe something to double check with the builders since it looks like it was recently completed?

That can be issue eek.gif

However, i don't have much choice but to keep it that way, as it's a living room cum HT and Mrs has asked to keep the sliding window for aesthetic reasons.

I am thinking, if i keep the floor standers set as small speakers in the AV set up, and keep the Sub next to the single seater, will that eliminate/reduce the problem?

Any thoughts and suggestions are welcome at this time. Although, i must tell you, that i can't do any structural changes now, a few additions here and there will be fine. redface.gif
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post #20 of 28
10/19/12 at 3:21am
Thread Starter 
Just put up the Sony 40HX850 in the room. Next up, speakers!
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post #21 of 28
10/27/12 at 12:14am
Thread Starter 


General viewing set up.
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post #22 of 28
10/29/12 at 5:30am
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What are the specifics to keep in mind while laying wall to wall carpet?
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post #23 of 28
10/29/12 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankur View Post

What are the specifics to keep in mind while laying wall to wall carpet?

Get more than one price quote.wink.gif
Edited by Spaceman - 10/29/12 at 6:40am
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post #24 of 28
10/29/12 at 7:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

Get more than one price quote.wink.gif

Thanks smile.gif

What material should i look for? Should i ask for foam below the carpet?
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post #25 of 28
10/29/12 at 4:11pm
the foam pad is almost as important as the carpet. A good quality pad will help the carpet last longer. Once the pad starts breaking down, wrinkles and worn spots are soon to follow.
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post #26 of 28
11/4/12 at 11:20pm
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Apart from the thickness, is there anything else to consider while choosing carpet for Home theater?
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post #27 of 28
11/18/12 at 9:34am
Enzyte _ Jimmy Johnson
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post #28 of 28
11/18/12 at 9:39am
OK, now for the serious stuff. I just hooked up my ne 70" Sharp Aquos. It's in a small room and I'm pretty happy with the sound except I want just a little more bass. I'd like to add a wireless powered subwoofer but don't want or need a separate amp/receiver. I don't want or need any other external speakers just the sub.

Any suggestions on how I can just hook up the subwoofer using one of my many outlets on the set? Thanks in advance.
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