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What can we expect from 2013 Panasonic Plasmas? - Page 21

post #601 of 1445
Agreed. I'm surprised at how much some people factor in the bezel and stand. Sure, I bought Panasonic because it had the sharpest looking box, but some of those other factors are just ridiculous when comparing TVs.
post #602 of 1445
The 60" Elite 151fd came to market at $6500 before the world entered into a massive recession. A $6500 TV today is not feasible today. What could be done with pq if Panny had $3000 margin per panel to apply to better parts, etc.?
Edited by Glashub - 1/23/13 at 6:42pm
post #603 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

The 60" Elite 151fd came to market at $6500 before the world entered into a massive recession. A $6500 TV today is not feasible today. What could be done with pq if Panny had $3000 margin per panel to apply to better parts, etc.?

Glorious things would happen. Glorious things indeed...
post #604 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Glorious things would happen. Glorious things indeed...

Just give the public a VT at 90" and the PQ crying will go away mighty fast. size does trumps all.
post #605 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Glorious things would happen. Glorious things indeed...

Around 2002 the real estate boom started. I had friends with no skills at all making 400k a year just flipping mortgages and real estate. People were buying or leasing new BMW’s every year. Housewives were making 200K part time. Money was flying.

Since R&D and manufacturing set up begin long before the actual introduction of the product, Pioneer was making plans for the 9G and 9.5G during these heady times. By the time they came to market, the housing bubble burst and many of those high earners were unemployed or working for much less.

The global market crashed. Few people could actually afford or even justify a $6500 TV. The days of in your face, over the top consumption were over. In this new reality Pioneer folded and the others came to market with what most people could actually afford.

Of course, they didn’t meet Kuro standards in some ways. How do you match a $6500 TV when you have to sell a TV at $2000 just to sell them? And that is still a problem today.

Most on this forum probably do okay. But most Americans are not doing that great…but they want big screens too.

So Panny comes out with a 65” that is almost as good as a Kuro for about ½ the price while meeting modern eco mandates.
post #606 of 1445
400k a year??????? Jesus eek.gif
post #607 of 1445
Yes, it's true and I used to regret not going into real estate...until the bottom fell out. And, fyi, not many of those real estate/mortage people invested or saved their money or put it into businesses.

The Kuro is one of a kind and like Elvis it took a special blend of circumstances. But if reports about the ZT are accurate...the Rolling Stones are on their way...if you see what I mean.
post #608 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Yes, it's true and I used to regret not going into real estate...until the bottom fell out. And, fyi, not many of those real estate/mortage people invested or saved their money or put it into businesses.

The Kuro is one of a kind and like Elvis it took a special blend of circumstances. But if reports about the ZT are accurate...the Rolling Stones are on their way...if you see what I mean.

I don't know how you make that much money and go broke. I mean you can live off the interest, invest and make more money etc. But that's just me and how i handle money.

Anyway, this post did a good job of summing up why the kuro is still so good-

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1362804/what-makes-pioneer-kuro-so-special/60#post_21011988

It's not just black level.
post #609 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I don't know how you make that much money and go broke.

The same way Millionaire athletes go broke. They were never taught nor had any interest in learning money management after a windfall until too late.

It is exceptionally easy to mismanage money if you trust the wrong people, don't look into the details, or are too distracted with your new toys.
post #610 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbleboyjones View Post

Just give the public a VT at 90" and the PQ crying will go away mighty fast. size does trumps all.
Don't forget about a price tag under $8000 too wink.gif
post #611 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

So Panny comes out with a 65” that is almost as good as a Kuro for about ½ the price while meeting modern eco mandates.



This is exactly why its laughable when people bash Panasonic for not 'beating' the Kuro. Add in inflation and the Kuro is more like 7 grand today. They're two different pieces of electronics with very different designs and requirements and the Kuro failed in the market.
post #612 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Don't forget about a price tag under $8000 too wink.gif


Well true biggrin.gif But heck even if it was like 10 grand like the 90" Sharp there would be Kuro owners taking a mortage out for it in a second wink.gif
post #613 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I don't know how you make that much money and go broke. I mean you can live off the interest, invest and make more money etc. But that's just me and how i handle money.

Anyway, this post did a good job of summing up why the kuro is still so good-

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1362804/what-makes-pioneer-kuro-so-special/60#post_21011988

It's not just black level.

People who have very little or nothing but do have a lot of pent up desire from watching Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous or Pimp Your Crib suddenly start making crazy money (we all rose with the waters) and can buy all the things they wanted but never had.

Well it’s easy to kid yourself it’ll never end. Even The Donald was running around saying that the real estate market would never crash.

But it did and those people who went from making nothing to making easy almost free money weren’t prepared and didn’t develop the necessary skills to maintain the lifestyle.

There were tens of millions make a better living than they ever had because of the real estate bubble.
post #614 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Most on this forum probably do okay. But most Americans are not doing that great…but they want big screens too.
I squeak by. This is my main form of escapism. eek.gif
post #615 of 1445
^
Nunya needs some nightlife?
post #616 of 1445
Not much of that where I are...trekked it for something in LA last year, however. wink.gif
post #617 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbleboyjones View Post

This is exactly why its laughable when people bash Panasonic for not 'beating' the Kuro. Add in inflation and the Kuro is more like 7 grand today. They're two different pieces of electronics with very different designs and requirements and the Kuro failed in the market.

It's not laughable to want something better, not close, equal, or almost there, after nearly 5 years.

I guess you can say us kuro owners are spoiled by PQ. Blame pioneer.
post #618 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitwize View Post

I'm certain there will be side-by-side comparisons once the review models are supplied. Faith and patience in the meantime.

Also, I've received multiple reports that the ZT60 does indeed outperform the Kuro in black level. And these reports are from Kuro believers & followers wink.gif

I have owned a few Kuros and trust the ZT60 will beat out the Kuro blacks, but it remains to be seen if color, gamma, etc. will be better or worse on the ZT60.
)

Where are these reports from exactly?

To my knowledge, the TV was shown off at CES and only CES. (I could be wrong, so correct me.)

I saw it there, next to a VT50.

It was blacker than the VT50 (which I believe was set up to make the demo more impressive and not shown at its best, but I believe the ZT60 has a superior black level than the best a VT50 could do -- period.)

I haven't seen a Kuro in a while, but I also don't see how someone who even owned one could possibly have concluded which one was blacker based on the CES demo. In fact, anyone claiming they could is being ridiculous.

Again, perhaps there was some other demo I'm not aware of. But your "multiple reports" claim set off my alarms and suggests these were either (a) people who attended CES or (b) fictional stories.
post #619 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I saw it there, next to a VT50.

Is that why some GTs and VTs have IR and light blacks and some don't ?

To have models to compare with at CES ;-)
post #620 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

It's not laughable to want something better, not close, equal, or almost there, after nearly 5 years.


Kuro's can't be made now. They weren't profitable, they were super expensive and didn't meet current regs for energy. So yes, its going to take some time to reengineer things to get back to the "Kuro PQ" while maintaining reasonable prices for a recession and meeting energy regs. If Ferrari stop selling cars despite being better than the competition and Chevrolet buys the Ferrari patents, they still might need years to make the Corvette near the Ferrari performance while meeting regulations on emissions and having a price that supports its sale in a recession
post #621 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Where are these reports from exactly?

To my knowledge, the TV was shown off at CES and only CES. (I could be wrong, so correct me.)

I saw it there, next to a VT50.

It was blacker than the VT50 (which I believe was set up to make the demo more impressive and not shown at its best, but I believe the ZT60 has a superior black level than the best a VT50 could do -- period.)

I haven't seen a Kuro in a while, but I also don't see how someone who even owned one could possibly have concluded which one was blacker based on the CES demo. In fact, anyone claiming they could is being ridiculous.

Again, perhaps there was some other demo I'm not aware of. But your "multiple reports" claim set off my alarms and suggests these were either (a) people who attended CES or (b) fictional stories.

So the set was blacker, but it wasn't a night and day difference.

That's basically what it seems reports have been saying, but it's worth pointing out that the VT50 is deep enough in black level that unless someone is watching extremely low apl material ( the only reason to get deeper blacks for that sort of dark room material) blacks are basically dark enough at this point.

Doesn't mean I don't want the ZT60 to get below the 101/500m. I'm hoping Robert at Value Electronics will have a comparison between that set and his 500m when they ship in the spring.
post #622 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

You lament the potential loss of plasma, but have not invested in plasma's commercial viability since 2008?

This is the year the enthusiast crowd should pick up a new plasma - to demonstrate niche demand and possibly prolong its demise.

That is true. I paid a good buck for the pioneer and that meant keeping it for a while longer than some jalopy. And, the size thing wasn't an issue until recently. I wasn't in the market. I'm sure I'll find something that'll work. The panasonics and higher end Sammy's will have to be it. Unless one of the other brands gets it done. LG and VIzio have a chance too.
post #623 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbleboyjones View Post

Just give the public a VT at 90" and the PQ crying will go away mighty fast. size does trumps all.

No, it wouldn't, otherwise people would all buy the Sharp 80" and 90" sets with the awful video processing.
post #624 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Is that why some GTs and VTs have IR and light blacks and some don't ?

To have models to compare with at CES ;-)

I'm sure there's something funny there, but I am honestly missing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

So the set was blacker, but it wasn't a night and day difference.

That's basically what it seems reports have been saying, but it's worth pointing out that the VT50 is deep enough in black level that unless someone is watching extremely low apl material ( the only reason to get deeper blacks for that sort of dark room material) blacks are basically dark enough at this point.

Doesn't mean I don't want the ZT60 to get below the 101/500m. I'm hoping Robert at Value Electronics will have a comparison between that set and his 500m when they ship in the spring.

I'm saying the ZT60 was definitely better. I'm saying also that the original Kuro demo at CES many years ago was mind blowing. This was not even mind rattling. I'm pretty happy with the blacks on my VT50; I have no idea how they measure compare to a calibrated Kuro (although Google seems to suggest they are about 2-3x higher).

If you want a useless guess, I'm going to provide one: The ZT60 blacks will be the best Panasonic has offered by a decent margin. Kuro owners will explain to you why they are not as good as Kuro blacks.
post #625 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post



If you want a useless guess, I'm going to provide one: The ZT60 blacks will be the best Panasonic has offered by a decent margin. Kuro owners will explain to you why they are not as good as Kuro blacks.

Kuro owners will be doing that until the end of time, they will never be convinced.
post #626 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Kuro owners will be doing that until the end of time, they will never be convinced.

Hey man, i'm still waiting. I actually want panasonic to have better blacks than the kuro. It's time. And superior in everything else also. They do have the kuro engineers after all.

Maby this year will finally be the year. At CES they were even using a similar font pioneer used for the kuros. smile.gif
post #627 of 1445
Im excited to see the ZT and the F8500. Samsung stepped up their plasma game finally
post #628 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Kuro owners will be doing that until the end of time, they will never be convinced.
I'm convinced by measurements...when we get there, we'll be the first to concede.

Rogo, was that the last panel that Pioneer demoed? Maybe you weren't wowed by the ZT60 because flat panel tech has managed to creep closer to the impressiveness of that panel since then, and you have been desensitized to these improvements over the years visiting CES on a (I presume) yearly basis. I'm just trying to rationalize why the ZT60 seemed so unimpressive to you.
post #629 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


I'm saying the ZT60 was definitely better. I'm saying also that the original Kuro demo at CES many years ago was mind blowing. This was not even mind rattling. I'm pretty happy with the blacks on my VT50; I have no idea how they measure compare to a calibrated Kuro (although Google seems to suggest they are about 2-3x higher).

If you want a useless guess, I'm going to provide one: The ZT60 blacks will be the best Panasonic has offered by a decent margin. Kuro owners will explain to you why they are not as good as Kuro blacks.

The real question would be: how would the ZT60 handle the pioneer ECC demo material? I'm guessing it would hold it's own. It's going to be splitting hairs now between this set and oled in 2013. AVForums talked about the bezel disappearing or being extremely hard to find in that demo with the VT50 and with Panasonic trying to mimic the Elite graphics, I can only guess they feel they've arrived with a set that combines the best of pioneer and panasonic technology together. This was the plan a few years ago, it just took longer than expected.
post #630 of 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

have no idea how they measure compare to a calibrated Kuro (although Google seems to suggest they are about 2-3x higher).

I think you've said you have a 65VT50, correct me if I'm wrong. That set has measured anywhere from .0018-.0022 ft/L- essentially twice the mll of the 9G Kuros. If the ZT60 definitely looks blacker than the VT50, it's basically hitting 9G blacks or better. 2012 was already pretty close to begin with.

It'll be nice if the VT60 can show some mll improvements over the VT50, too, in addition to being priced as a GT50.
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