Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 42

neither will be superior to the other theoretically...but with DSD direct to analog you will lose the use of MCACC and its benefits of calibrated speaker distance, levels & EQ, etc. plus, except for the dedicated .1 LFE channel, you lose all bass redirection from "small" speakers to the subwoofer, So in practice, converting to PCM first:

1. does no audible harm to the integrity of the hi-rez audio since it will be converted from 2.8224 Mhz @ 1 bit to its PCM equivalent of 88.2 Khz or 176.4 Khz @ 24 bits.
2. gain the ability to use Pioneer DSP MCACC calibration/EQ/phase control, standing wave filters, and bass mgmt.

"audiophile" purists may want the option to use DSD direct but real world it makes no discernible difference and you gain the use of room correction going to PCM first. I would consider DSD direct for 2 ch SACD's but for 5.1 SACD's, it may actually sound worse, since you will have no bass mgmt for "small" speakers and no distance calibration. in my room, 5.1 done as DSD direct didn't sound nearly as good bass-wise as converted to PCM and using MCACC...ymmv. even with 2 ch SACD's, if you have bass shy fronts or set them as "small', be prepared to sacrifice some bass performance because there's no LFE channel for a subwoofer and no redirected bass from the fronts. there can be no digital processing on top of DSD direct unless it's converted to PCM.

I have used DSD direct on occasion and in all cases with 5.1 and most cases with 2 ch, I prefer to use MCACC & bass mgmt to having straight DSD.

you can do your own listening comparisons & then you can decide for yourself which way you prefer it's not hard to switch & compare - just set the Oppo player and receiver to DSD & Pure Direct respectively, then set to PCM & Direct respectively. if you set the Oppo to DSD but leave the Pioneer set to Direct with MCACC engaged or Auto Surround, the receiver will convert the DSD from the Oppo to PCM anyway

and from wiki on SACD:

"Comparison with DVD-A

Double-blind listening tests in 2004 between DSD and 24-bit, 176.4 kHz PCM recordings reported that among test subjects no significant differences could be heard (emphasis mine). DSD advocates and equipment manufacturers continue to assert an improvement in sound quality above PCM 24-bit 176.4 kHz."
Edited by ss9001 - 3/7/13 at 1:16pm

glad you're enjoying it so far!

the original mic position might have been in a bass null or a big peak for the particular freq(s) you noticed were missing. I've found moving the measuring mic for the Velodyne sub EQ system just a ft or 2 can make a big difference in the resulting bass response. True nulls & peaks are 100% dependent on room dimensions & listening - measurement position. Moving your Pioneer mic that 16" just might have moved it to past a null or peak and then the system has something to work with.

plus, DonH50 is right, with this being a single point measurement, you don't have the "averaging" that Audyssey does with multiple measuring positions that could add nulls with peaks to get a result

I think it's great you figured out a way to compensate, using your brain & not just post a complaint your experience and how you coped with it will help others...good job!

^^
you should be getting 9.1 simultaneously from 5.1 sources, and probably 7.1 also.

1. did you set speaker setup to A. 9.2 FH/FW in setup menu?
2. when you ran your MCACC calibration, did you hear test tones from height & rear speakers?
3. did you confirm in Data Management that they are not set to No but Yes and have distances, delays, levels, and EQ settings?
4. are you sure you have them connected properly?



5. did you try the speaker setting FH On, not FH/FW? I have mine set to FH/FW and have no problems but you should try the FH only speaker setting, page 78 in manual just to be sure.

6. how do you know you're not getting the channels? did you put your ear up to the speakers? keep in mind that for MANY if not MOST soundtracks, the derived rear channels and especially height channels may be very subtle and not readily apparent at all. it all depends on the content. you may not notice them at all, they are not "in your face". if you find the levels too low for your liking, you can copy the MCACC preset you're using, say Symmetry, by doing a Data Copy, then tweak (increase) the rear & height channel levels a dB or several dB's to bring them up in volume. even with 7.1 tracks, my experience with rear channels is mixed...some discs are mastered so that there is aggressive use of rears and others are so subtle that it makes negligible difference to the soundfield if they are there or turned off. The Star Wars discs are an example where only occasionally you will hear something distinct coming from the rears. One of the best 7.1 discs, IMO, is Dark City. I have found only a handful of others that make as good use of the rears. Good 7.1 is a missed opportunity by many studios.

7. lastly and most importantly, you will only get height channels from Dolby ProLogic IIz (not PLIIx) and Neo X modes. None of the THX modes or plain DTS-MA, Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital, DTS will derive them. Same is true of rears, unless it's a 7.1 disc, you must use ProLogic IIx, IIz, DTS Neo X, or THX Cinema to derive 7.1 rear channels from 5.1. None of the "advanced surround", Optimum Surround, ALC modes will give you height channels either. and if you are in Direct mode or Pure Direct mode, you will not get height channels or rear channels unless it's a 7.1 disc of course. Direct & Pure Direct will give you only what's on the disc, nothing more...if disc is 5.1 all you will get is 5.1 with Direct & Pure Direct. You must be select Auto Surround then IIz (for heights & rears) IIx (for rears) or Neo X (for heights & rears).

If none of these apply to you, then I can't explain why your setup isn't working right. check wiring, check connections, check settings. if all fails, then your receiver may have a defect but it's far more likely it's something in your setup

let me add one more thing....

I just noticed you have wides connected too. I missed that, sorry. this may be your issue. we're not sure how the speaker selection FH/FW On is supposed to work and so far haven't gotten an explanation from Pioneer either. the description in the manual suggests there's some sort of switching that may occur BUT this was found not to work as it's described literally. adn there is no flag in NeoX to do that kind of switching according to someone in the know who used to work for Dolby.

my advice now that I see you have both connected is to individually select speaker selection "FH On" for when you want heights & use PLIIx or NeoX. OR select "FW On" and use Neo X for when you want to use wides. I don't think the FH/FW does what one might think. and if you do have both connected & set to Yes in the MCACC setup, then the receiver can't decide what to use when and it may be causing a "glitch" for lack of better word. Make sure both are Yes in MCACC and use the speaker selector on remote to deliberately pick either heights or wides but not the FW/FW setting. See if that doesn't fix your problem. also remember that PLIIz only derives heights....and only Neo X can derive heights & wides.

you might try an experiment....disconnect your wide speakers & then see if you can hear heights & rears with IIz or NeoX. If you can, then that was your problem...reconnect the wides & use the speaker selector.

what connections from the sources to the receiver, analog, digital opt/coax or HDMI?
for multizone use, zone 2/3 it will only work with analog connections. and only the SC-68 can send HDMI to another zone.

if you are using speaker B terminals on the receiver, did you remember to use the speaker selector on the remote to select A+B On? (pg 78 in manual)

from reading similar posts elsewhere, I think either the Denon 4520 or Marantz 8801 threads, this delay is due to the fact that main zone gets processed by DSP for adding surround processing, decoding, calibration & EQ, while the 2nd zone does not. Zone 2/3 are not calibrated or go thru digital processing at all, being straight stereo. this introduces a very slight delay, it doesn't take much, between the 2 signal paths. the fact that it goes away when you use Pure Direct is no surprise in light of this.

other than tinkering in the audio parameters menu with lip sync delay or try turning off Phase Control, it is what it is. and since this is not a video/audio sync issue per se, lip sync delay adjustment may or may not help. I mention Phase Control because it alters the group delays between main zone channels so that freq's arrive at the listening position at same time...my experience is that it increases the group delay so that all channels match. therefore, turning it off may be something to try.

if it bothers you that much, you can try & see but no guarantees. or use Pure Direct.

the difference between the 2 receivers' amp architecture is night & day. your 49 is class A/B & required 2x the power supply watts, transformer & capacitors than the 68's class D amps. A/B amps at best are about 50% efficient while class D amps are 80-90% efficient. the power supply rating being halved is the result...it's not needed for the same output power. you may want to read up on class D amps, wiki is a good place to start. I can attach white papers, Pioneer info, Icepower literature (Ice amps are what Pioneer used from the SC-09tx to the SC-37 generations) and lit on the latest amp design from International Rectifier. but you need to understand the basic difference between how conventional class A/B amps work & how class D amps work to appreciate the advances & changes Pioneer has made since your 49TX came out

these class D amps have switch mode power supplies in which the power is pulsed full on & full off at a very high rate, about 450-500,000 times per second. in this fashion they work similarly to how digital audio works...sampling an analog signal at a high freq....so these amps are sometimes called digital amps although they still use analog signals from the preamp and output analog signals to the speakers.

Pioneer isn't cheating on the spec. plus, test measurements by several review sites show that while several competitive models do sag a lot when more than 5 channels are driven to same power at same time, the Pioneer class D amps can maintain close to rated power at 5-7 channels driven at once. I do agree that 9 channels, they would start to sag also no receiver on the planet can maintain rated power 9 channels driven at once the closest receivers could come to doing that where in the era of Pioneer's SC-09TX with its 1400 watt power supply & the Denon 5805 & 5308 models.

btw- I agree with your comment about the 49tx being one of the best in its day. I owned the 49txi and 59txi models and occasionally I wish I hadn't sold my 59txi...if nothing else for its build quality & all that copper I'd love to put it on a shelf just to look at it The SC-09TX that replaced the 59Txi was the last true flagship from Pioneer, but it wasn't cheap @ $7K! and I still have & use mine alongside the SC-68. I use the SC-68 as a prepro into the SC-09's amps. I won't be parting with it for the forseeable future as it represents the pinnacle of receiver design & Pioneer's heyday, IMO. the 59txi would be a close second

but other than the SC-09's build quality, higher power amps and the pinache of its front panel LCD display, the SC-68 is much more advanced technologically & has much more to offer than the SC-09 for a fraction of the price and as good as the 49 was, comparing it technically with SC-68 is not a contest

and any disappointments you may have with remote etc? look at the price difference between what the 49 cost in its day - $4500 in ~'01 dollars! - vs what the SC-68 costs in '12 dollars - $2500. something has to give...so you're not exactly making a fair comparison

I do agree the remote is probably the worst one to come out of Pioneer since the 49/59 models & even the SC-09's was a bit better. but in this day of cost cutting, razor-thin profit margins, poor economic recovery & poor company health & the fact that all A/V consumer electronic companies are really hurting...what would you have them do? - cut on a remote which can be replaced by a programmable universal remote? or cut on new amp designs, not pay for THX certification (like Denon), or use poorer quality components? keep in mind, they are directly competing with Denon 4520 at the same price point who doesn't pay to get THX certs, and the Onkyo 5010 which Onkyo charges $500 MORE for @ $3000 MSRP. I'm not apologizing for Pioneer, I am however pointing out reality in today's economy - and cheapening a remote strikes me as the least objectionable route to stay competitive

you can't have it all for 50% the price of your 49tx, not even including inflation...sorry.

just my 2c in addition to amp info. hopefully, you'll enjoy all the new formats, new processing, new features & apple/android integration & these will make up for a chintzy remote but all comments, complaints & observations, comparisons are welcome and appreciated. I also hope you join us on the forum to help others. just be prepared for lively discussion even if we may disagree on occasion

glad you're here!
Edited by ss9001 - 3/15/13 at 4:51am

you know you want to