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Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 23

post #661 of 1835
I "lost" a couple of sources during my first attempt at setup.
After a day of fiddling with the input setup screen I just reset the system and started at square one.
I am trying to do the absolute minimum alterations to my input menus
I will rename them when everything is working as it should.
post #662 of 1835
Just to make sure my question #4 in my last post is clear, what I am wondering is this:
How does music from iTunes on my iMac, assuming it was uploaded lossless, streamed via Airplay through Apple TV to my theater system (planning a Pioneer SC-68 to replace an older B&K and an Oppo 105 to replace my first gen. Denon BluRay), compare sonically with putting a CD into the Oppo and listening to it? Or, for that matter, attaching my ipod with the lossless music files, directly to the receiver?
In other words, is there some loss of quality due to any part of that path, (iTunes despite lossless, Airplay, WiFi, losing something because the Oppo 105 playing a CD is just better, etc.), most notably the streaming over WiFi?
Thanks.
post #663 of 1835
Does anybody having problem tv screen going snowy when you press iPod control on button on sc-68..... This used to work for me before now , maybe after the latest firmware upgrade, it is not workin..... My tv is connected thru arc hdmi....
post #664 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmgrenley View Post

I am thinking very seriously of getting an SC-68 to replace my old B&K AVR (that doesn't have HDMI) and it will be running my big Martin-Logan's and M-L center (I only have a 5.1 system with in wall rears), and getting an Oppo 105 (to replace my first generation Denon BluRay).

Why not add an OPPO BDP-103 instead? The BDP-105 was designed for analog output in mind. If you intend to use HDMI audio, save the money and get the BDP-103. Besides the SC-68 has features that are redundant with the BDP105 and vise-versa. If you intend to use the analog outputs, a separate pre-pro and/or amplifier will suffice.
post #665 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmgrenley View Post

I am thinking very seriously of getting an SC-68 to replace my old B&K AVR (that doesn't have HDMI) and it will be running my big Martin-Logan's and M-L center (I only have a 5.1 system with in wall rears), and getting an Oppo 105 (to replace my first generation Denon BluRay). I was wondering:

1. Would the SC-68 do well with my Martin-Logan's?

Which Martin Logans?
Quote:
2. I have an older REL subwoofer...what became of the issue regarding possible incompatibility with the D class amps? I couldn't find any further discussion after the issue was raised but maybe I missed it.

Which REL subwoofer?

AVRs in general don't have power amps for subwoofers. Hopefully your REL subwoofers have power amps of their own, in which case your question makes no sense at all.
Quote:
4. If my iTunes music library would be in lossless, how would the sound quality differ, if at all, between streaming it from iTunes through AirPlay to my system versus playing a CD in the Oppo 105? Is there degradation or loss by WiFi streaming compared to playing a CD what is supposed to be an excellent player?

Lossless is lossless whether the source is a lossless file online, on a local server, or a CD.

I don't know why anybody buys CD players with good DACs like the Oppos when every AVR has digital inputs that allow you to bypass them. Bypassing the DACs in the AVR also bypasses things that are quite valuable such as bass management, equalization, and system tuniing so you want to rely on them for sure. Bottom line, paying the big bucks for one of the upscale BD players makes no sense.
post #666 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmgrenley View Post

Just to make sure my question #4 in my last post is clear, what I am wondering is this:
How does music from iTunes on my iMac, assuming it was uploaded lossless, streamed via Airplay through Apple TV to my theater system (planning a Pioneer SC-68 to replace an older B&K and an Oppo 105 to replace my first gen. Denon BluRay), compare sonically with putting a CD into the Oppo and listening to it? Or, for that matter, attaching my ipod with the lossless music files, directly to the receiver?
In other words, is there some loss of quality due to any part of that path, (iTunes despite lossless, Airplay, WiFi, losing something because the Oppo 105 playing a CD is just better, etc.), most notably the streaming over WiFi?
Thanks.

The Apple TV sample rate converts to 48k... in reality, I don't think anyone would be able to pick out that difference..

Airplay is lossless.

A digital iPod connection is the same...

I use the Remote app on an iPad (or iPod touch) to control my iTunes library via Airplay.. works, and sounds, great...
post #667 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Bottom line, paying the big bucks for one of the upscale BD players makes no sense.
I buy Oppos because they play Mch DVD-A and SACD (with 88.2 kHz PCM output). That's not a common capability.
post #668 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I buy Oppos because they play Mch DVD-A and SACD (with 88.2 kHz PCM output). That's not a common capability.
To add to this so far it has played every single disc that has been thrown its way not the same can be said for a lot of other players out there.
post #669 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Which Martin Logans?
Which REL subwoofer?
AVRs in general don't have power amps for subwoofers. Hopefully your REL subwoofers have power amps of their own, in which case your question makes no sense at all.
Lossless is lossless whether the source is a lossless file online, on a local server, or a CD.
I don't know why anybody buys CD players with good DACs like the Oppos when every AVR has digital inputs that allow you to bypass them. Bypassing the DACs in the AVR also bypasses things that are quite valuable such as bass management, equalization, and system tuniing so you want to rely on them for sure. Bottom line, paying the big bucks for one of the upscale BD players makes no sense.


Martin Logan Ascent i's
Martin Logan Theater i center speaker
REL storm lll sub
Sorry my question makes no sense at all
So my question is whether there is any sound compromises from WiFi streaming of those lossless music on iTunes as opposed to playing a CD in the system or for that matter connecting the ipod to the AVR directly.
post #670 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Which Martin Logans?
Which REL subwoofer?
AVRs in general don't have power amps for subwoofers. Hopefully your REL subwoofers have power amps of their own, in which case your question makes no sense at all.
Lossless is lossless whether the source is a lossless file online, on a local server, or a CD.
I don't know why anybody buys CD players with good DACs like the Oppos when every AVR has digital inputs that allow you to bypass them. Bypassing the DACs in the AVR also bypasses things that are quite valuable such as bass management, equalization, and system tuniing so you want to rely on them for sure. Bottom line, paying the big bucks for one of the upscale BD players makes no sense.


And, by the way, are you saying that the question raised earlier in this thread as to possible incompatibility of class D amps with the REL subwoofer makes no sense as well?
I guess I have nothing to worry about then.
post #671 of 1835
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmgrenley View Post

And, by the way, are you saying that the question raised earlier in this thread as to possible incompatibility of class D amps with the REL subwoofer makes no sense as well?
I guess I have nothing to worry about then.

well...you still have the grounding issue according to their website. I posted somewhere (maybe this thread?) with links. check their site and FAQ's and you should find it. IIRC, you'll need their "special" cable or connect up a grounding wire. so the issue is still there. doesn't mean you can't use it with a receiver with class D amps, of course, it just means you have to do the extra step. and yes, even though the sub has its own amp, it has to do with how the receiver amps are grounded.

you should have no problems with one of the SC models as long as you do what the REL website suggests smile.gif
post #672 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

well...you still have the grounding issue according to their website. I posted somewhere (maybe this thread?) with links. check their site and FAQ's and you should find it. IIRC, you'll need their "special" cable or connect up a grounding wire. so the issue is still there. doesn't mean you can't use it with a receiver with class D amps, of course, it just means you have to do the extra step. and yes, even though the sub has its own amp, it has to do with how the receiver amps are grounded.
you should have no problems with one of the SC models as long as you do what the REL website suggests smile.gif

Thanks for your help!
post #673 of 1835
I am using an Elite SC-67 and it clearly stipulates on page 78 of the manual that sound will be put out to both A+B Speakers and Subwoofer. It seems that when both sets are enabled and Dts: Neo X is going, it only puts out sound to the heights. It never once " switches " to the wides or even duplicates the sound like it says in the manual. Can someone please tell me if they get sound with both enabled in NeoX because I am ready to return this receiver if that can not work out.
post #674 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I wouldn't give up hope yet. I'm only going by the error message you mentioned which may or may not be related smile.gif

Some good news .. I managed to get the USB-DAC driver to install smile.gif

I feel such an idiot now, but it was only after re-reading Soniky's reply that I twigged that perhaps it was in some way crucial that I have the USB-DAC input selected when I connect the USB cable from my computer to the SC-68. Anyway, this was what made the difference. I have never come across a USB capable device where I had to go in and configure its inputs first - very odd, but I assume Pioneer have a good reason for designing it to work this way. Maybe they power down that section when it is not needed to save power, or reduce the noise floor??

BTW, the reason why I did not have the USB-DAC input selected was that in order to see my PC's display on my TV I had to have the DVD input selected. (there are actually problems with that also, but I will post details on this later)

Anyway, in order to see what was going on with my PC I had to disconnect the DVI->HDMI cable from the SC-68 and route it to my TV via an old HDMI switch which I have. I then selected the USB-DAC input and connected the cable. This time (for the first time) Windows detected the new USB device and attempted to install the new hardware. This failed with the message..

"A problem occurred during hardware installation. Your new hardware might not work properly"

I tried a number of times but got the same error. In control panel/System/Hardware it indicated that the Pioneer USB Device had not been installed correctly and could not start.

Next step was to try installing the USB-DAC driver from the AVNavigator CD. In Chrome browser I selected the option to install the driver, and it downloaded the setup.exe from the CD. I double-clicked on this not nothing happened. However, I was able to successfully run the setup.exe from my hard drive (I had previously copied the contents of the CD to my hard drive because of issues I encountered earlier, i.e. couldn't install the AVNavigator app from the CD)

I have selected "DS: Pioneer USB Device" in Foobar 2000 and selected 24bit mode. I now get the sound out of my speakers.

Initial impressions are that it sometimes sounds a little harsh/edgy compared to my Mapleshade adapter but I understand that there are some adjustment that you can do on the SC-68 which might help with that. I plan to spend some time to do some proper listening tests later.

Thanks everyone for spending the time to help me with this.
post #675 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocluvr92 View Post

I am using an Elite SC-67 and it clearly stipulates on page 78 of the manual that sound will be put out to both A+B Speakers and Subwoofer. It seems that when both sets are enabled and Dts: Neo X is going, it only puts out sound to the heights. It never once " switches " to the wides or even duplicates the sound like it says in the manual. Can someone please tell me if they get sound with both enabled in NeoX because I am ready to return this receiver if that can not work out.
Page 19 states:
Quote:
It is not possible to produce sound simultaneously from the front height speakers and the front wide speakers.

The A+B mode is separate from the Neo:X mode. Page 78 says that in A+B mode the B speakers output a stereo version of whatever is available in the A speakers.

Above that is states:
Quote:
SP: FH/FW ON – Front height or front wide channels are added to the front, center, surround and surround back channels (maximum 7 channels) and a maximum of 9 channels are output. The front height and front wide channels are switched automatically according to the audio input signal.
It is unclear what "according to input signal" means in this case, since neither Neo:X nor PLIIz have flags in the input signal. In that case, if you want to hear the wide speakers, you have to manually select SP: FW ON using the Speakers function, and select Neo:X.
post #676 of 1835
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocluvr92 View Post

I am using an Elite SC-67 and it clearly stipulates on page 78 of the manual that sound will be put out to both A+B Speakers and Subwoofer. It seems that when both sets are enabled and Dts: Neo X is going, it only puts out sound to the heights. It never once " switches " to the wides or even duplicates the sound like it says in the manual. Can someone please tell me if they get sound with both enabled in NeoX because I am ready to return this receiver if that can not work out.

I saw your other thread you started. Didn't reply yet because I'm confused. You keep mentioning A+B speakers. Looking at the rear panel, yes the wides are connected to the same jacks as B speakers if you had B speakers. But you do not want to select A+B Speakers for your use, and I can't tell from your 2 posts if that's what you're doing or not...sorry it's not clear to me redface.gif

1. In the Speaker Setup Menu, make sure you select the 9.2 FH/FW option, not 7.2 + B

2. Make sure in the Manual SP Setup sub-menu, you have FW not set to No. In other words, both FH & FW should be either Small (preferred) or Large for bass management. If FW are set to No, then manually set them to Small or Large.

Auto MCACC should have detected the presence of both and sent sounds to each set but....did you hear test sounds from both your heights & wides or just the heights?

3. Using the button on the remote or front panel for switching speaker terminals, select SP: FH/FW On and not SP: A+B On (pg 78 in manual)

Two important caveats:

1. this is a 9.2 receiver not an 11.2 receiver, meaning you cannot have Front Heights & Front Wides playing at the same time. Sounds like you know this already but for the record, I posted it smile.gif

2. the manual says it switches heights to wides automatically depending on the audio input signal. I have no idea what that really means It could mean it uses some kind of algorithm to send appropriate sounds to which ever one it "think" is best (quite a bit of sophistication, if you ask me, and Pioneer has never advertised it used such a proprietary feature) or it could mean if there are encoded heights or wides, it will extract whichever one is in use - example would be the Expendables 2 Blu-ray which is optimally encoded for heights. Candidly, I suspect the 2nd is the most likely. But who knows...no one before you has posted that they've actually tried this.

I can't check it for you since I don't have wides.

either we don't know exactly how or what this ht/wide switching really means, we think it's something it's not or you may have missed a step in the setup smile.gif

if you missed a step, try it again & pretty please post back how it works for the benefit of all smile.gif thanks!
Edited by ss9001 - 12/27/12 at 12:38pm
post #677 of 1835
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Above that is states: It is unclear what "according to input signal" means in this case, since neither Neo:X nor PLIIz have flags in the input signal. In that case, if you want to hear the wide speakers, you have to manually select SP: FW ON using the Speakers function, and select Neo:X.

Thanks very much, Roger, for your help! smile.gif
Interesting that you also don't know what Pioneer means by that statement.

Crocluvr,
For the record, Roger Dressler is a recognized expert on the forum about surround matrixing formats since he used to work for Dolby. If you have a Dolby, dts, PLIIx/z or Neo related question, he & forum member "sdurani" are 2 of the most informed with answers.
Edited by ss9001 - 12/27/12 at 12:39pm
post #678 of 1835
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbear View Post

Some good news .. I managed to get the USB-DAC driver to install smile.gif...Thanks everyone for spending the time to help me with this.

congratulations! sorry I couldn't recall that 1 step I did; just didn't occur to me that that was the issue all along redface.gif
no problem - glad you got it to work & enjoying it now cool.gif
post #679 of 1835
Hey Guys,

I am looking into purchasing a Pioneer Elite Series receiver. I want to make it quasi future proof. I originally was looking at the SC-68. I have a good friend who works at Best Buy who brought up a good point. He was saying that with the constant change in technology, I might be better suited going to a SC-65 and using the extra dough on my speaker upgrades. I guess what I getting to is, are there big difference between the Sc-67/68 vs 65? The room it's going in is small. I am planning on custom building a house in the next 5 years and want to use it for multi-zone and be able to power a medium theater room. At max, I'll be running a 7.2 setup. Possibly pushing either B&W's larger 600series speakers or their smaller CM series speakers. Let me know if you need any more info to answer my question. Thanks in advance for your help!!
post #680 of 1835
Thread Starter 
^^
do you want to use HDMI in your 2nd zone so the SC becomes a source hub to a 2nd receiver in the other room?
post #681 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler

Above that is states: It is unclear what "according to input signal" means in this case, since neither Neo:X nor PLIIz have flags in the input signal. In that case, if you want to hear the wide speakers, you have to manually select SP: FW ON using the Speakers function, and select Neo:X.




Ok well the heights stay on in the FH/FW mode and nothing seems to ' flag ' or ' switch ' to the wides and no where in the manual does it say that the heights will be default in A+B mode so then the manual and the receiver is falsely advertised. It looks like I will be returning this receiver, thanks for your help!
post #682 of 1835
Iv just recently purchased the SC-67 and Im still learning alot.......what is the difference between PLII and Neo X ???
post #683 of 1835
Hi guys,

My current Onkyo AVR started giving me some trouble in the last couple of weeks so I acted fast without doing much research when a deal came up on an SC-65 (I should receive it any day now).

The specs look great and it seems really good from a connectivity perspective. However, I have AVRs in both my HT rooms that have Audyssey and I find that I regularly use Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume - does the SC-65 offer similar features and if so how do they compare in effectiveness. I ask as this could end up being a deal-breaker for me as I find these features very useful with three small children in the house.

BTW, for those who own both Denon and Pioneer AVRs of a recent vintage - how does Pioneer's HDMI video switching speed compare, I ask as I've found my Denon AVR to be well ahead of my Onkyo.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
post #684 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

Hi guys,
My current Onkyo AVR started giving me some trouble in the last couple of weeks so I acted fast without doing much research when a deal came up on an SC-65 (I should receive it any day now).
The specs look great and it seems really good from a connectivity perspective. However, I have AVRs in both my HT rooms that have Audyssey and I find that I regularly use Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume - does the SC-65 offer similar features and if so how do they compare in effectiveness. I ask as this could end up being a deal-breaker for me as I find these features very useful with three small children in the house.
BTW, for those who own both Denon and Pioneer AVRs of a recent vintage - how does Pioneer's HDMI video switching speed compare, I ask as I've found my Denon AVR to be well ahead of my Onkyo.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

It includes THX Loudness Plus which is similar to Dynamic EQ...

There is no feature that matches Dynamic Volume... you can turn on Dynamic Range Control to help out when listening at lower volume, but it won't react to wild swings in program levels like Dyn Volume does.

As far as HDMI switching, I have never really noticed it being fast or slow... it certainly isn't any slower than the Onkyo or Denon's I've had in my room recently.
post #685 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

It includes THX Loudness Plus which is similar to Dynamic EQ...
There is no feature that matches Dynamic Volume... you can turn on Dynamic Range Control to help out when listening at lower volume, but it won't react to wild swings in program levels like Dyn Volume does.
As far as HDMI switching, I have never really noticed it being fast or slow... it certainly isn't any slower than the Onkyo or Denon's I've had in my room recently.

FilmMixer, thanks for the quick response. You've given me something to think about as I've gotten pretty used to the benefits of Dynamic Volume as I've had it in my AVR for over 4 years now. I'm surprised Pioneer doesn't offer a similar technology on their AVRs - I can't see why they wouldn't just license Dolby Volume.

Thanks again for the info.
post #686 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

FilmMixer, thanks for the quick response. You've given me something to think about as I've gotten pretty used to the benefits of Dynamic Volume as I've had it in my AVR for over 4 years now. I'm surprised Pioneer doesn't offer a similar technology on their AVRs - I can't see why they wouldn't just license Dolby Volume.
Thanks again for the info.

As a side note..

The CALM act recently went into effect... for broadcast, it should alleviate some of the massive swings..

If you are concerned about DVD/BR, you can turn on DRC as I said. smile.gif
post #687 of 1835
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

FilmMixer, thanks for the quick response. You've given me something to think about as I've gotten pretty used to the benefits of Dynamic Volume as I've had it in my AVR for over 4 years now. I'm surprised Pioneer doesn't offer a similar technology on their AVRs - I can't see why they wouldn't just license Dolby Volume.
Thanks again for the info.

You also have Pioneer's Auto Level Control (ALC) surround playback mode. According to Pioneer, it "equalizes sound level playback". I have tried it but since listen on the loud side nearly all the time, I can't tell you definitively how it differs wink.gif It does have an effect on the surround balance but it's hard for me to describe exactly how it sounds.

I'll try ALC with a low volume & let you know smile.gif

As far as Dolby Volume, my guess it comes to economics & the fact that they've already got 3 technologies to essentially do the same thing. They've paid a lot of money for THX Ultra2 certification & processing, so they automatically get Loudness Plus. Add their own DRC and proprietary ALC mode, and they've got it covered. Adding yet another technology for the same thing would be superfluous plus they'd have to raise the price to cover the added cost.

Denon, OTOH, does NOT pay for THX, but since they pay for Audyssey, it makes 100% sense for them to rely on Dynamic Volume since they've paid for it already. Pioneer with THX is no different than Denon with Audyssey. Each one costs them money and they can't afford to put every company's approach in & maintain the price point.
post #688 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

As a side note..
The CALM act recently went into effect... for broadcast, it should alleviate some of the massive swings..
If you are concerned about DVD/BR, you can turn on DRC as I said. smile.gif

Thanks FilmMixer, I mostly care about late night movie watching and I like the fact that Dynamic Volume doesn't completely cripple the soundtrack the way DRC does. Still, if I have to give up something I guess I'm glad it's Volume rather than EQ as the SC-65 does still have Loudness plus which is similar to Dynamic EQ.

Thanks again.
post #689 of 1835
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

You also have Pioneer's Auto Level Control (ALC) surround playback mode. According to Pioneer, it "equalizes sound level playback". I have tried it but since listen on the loud side nearly all the time, I can't tell you definitively how it differs wink.gif It does have an effect on the surround balance but it's hard for me to describe exactly how it sounds.
I'll try ALC with a low volume & let you know smile.gif
As far as Dolby Volume, my guess it comes to economics & the fact that they've already got 3 technologies to essentially do the same thing. They've paid a lot of money for THX Ultra2 certification & processing, so they automatically get Loudness Plus. Add their own DRC and proprietary ALC mode, and they've got it covered. Adding yet another technology for the same thing would be superfluous plus they'd have to raise the price to cover the added cost.
Denon, OTOH, does NOT pay for THX, but since they pay for Audyssey, it makes 100% sense for them to rely on Dynamic Volume since they've paid for it already. Pioneer with THX is no different than Denon with Audyssey. Each one costs them money and they can't afford to put every company's approach in & maintain the price point.

Thanks ss9001, I did see ALC mentioned in the user manual but I can't find any information on it online to determine if it works in a similar fashion to Dynamic Volume or Dolby Volume or whether it's applicable to all input signals. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated. I see your point about the economics behind decisions but unless this ALC technology is equivalent it means that Pioneer AVRs come up short on a feature many people (at least people I know who all seem to have small children) use on an everyday basis so it just seems like an oversight to me, one that's easily correctable.
post #690 of 1835
Can someone tell me what significant differences exist between the SC 67 and 68?
md
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