Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 33

good feeling, isn't it
all of us have something to contribute to the cause

I haven't tried ARC yet but now you have my interest just to see how it works!

congratulations!
we know you really wanted it

Hi bob
are you tire-kicking?

yeah, the 5805 was a beast! I've never heard the 5805 but I think the 5805 was what Pioneer had in mind as their target when SC-09 came out

I suspect & based on some old reviews that no, the SC-68 won't have the total power capacity of the 5805 or the SC-09. keep in mind, you're comparing totally different animals - the SC09 had a 1400 watt power supply & the Denon 5805's was probably at least that much, I think they claimed max current draw was something like 13 amps, so that would make it ~1500 watts. The power supply in the SC-68 is about 800 watts, IIRC.

those uber-flagships could hit 200 or more watts per, depending on how many channels driven at once. the SC-09 could do 7 x 200 & I suspect the 5805 was similar.

so, how do the new ones stack up? pretty darn good actually. early on, I ran mine with no ext amps for the fronts, just to see how it would handle 5 - 4 ohm Magnepans. I cranked volume pretty high, -8 to -2 dB IIRC, and it never shutdown nor sounded strained, any more different sounding than the SC-09 did or with the ext amp. and this was with fronts set as large. it was punchy, dynamic, not much different sounding to my ears than my 2 ch ext amp, rated @ 300 wpc 8 ohm & 500+ wpc 4 ohm, class A/B btw. to be fair, I compared with some music I typically use for sharp transient percussion, & not movies with loud LFE. nor did I have all 9 channels playing. I was listening to couple of 2 ch & a 5.1 ch music discs (Brothers in Arms, Fagen's Morph the Cat for its very low bass)

so all I can say is - it's pretty powerful but...it'd be hard to say it would "beat" your folk's 5805 the 5805 had 10 amps & the SC-68/67 has 9 but the 5805's power supply is almost twice as big but even that isn't a true comparison since the Denon was class A/B at ~50% efficient while class D amps are 80-90%. so the Denon would need a much larger pwr supply

I think a fairer comparison is the SC-09 since it's also class D with 2 x the power supply and the SC-68 stacked up pretty well. but if you check reviews of the SC-09, SC-57 & SC-68, you'll the see that the SC-09 amps still measured as more powerful, even though the rating is the same

that doesn't mean it's not going to work as well for a normal HT system. and let's be honest, both the 5805 & SC-09 were 2.5 times the price of the SC-68. not even Denon's replacement for the 5805, the 5308, was the same in power output. those were unique receivers

IMO, the SC-68/67 are as close as your going to get in a modern AVR to those uber-flagships. not even the new Denon 4520 can maintain its power rating 5 & 7 ch driven based on a German YouTube review I came across, where the SC-68, 4520 & Onkyo 5010 were reviewed, compared & bench tested. I can post the link but the translation is pretty rough. I think I can upload a screenshot from it with the power comparisons tho.

I'll do that sometime today.
Edited by ss9001 - 1/25/13 at 9:01am

they do, by app or by remote. at least these SC models do.

hmm, I think I understand what you mean...connecting preamp outs to the sub, then from the sub to the front l/r speakers? if that's it, I think so, using the sub's own crossover for what goes to the front l/r speakers.

you'd have to consult the manual for the subwoofer on the various hookup schemes but using preamp out's to sub line level in's is one way. you'd probably have to set the receiver up differently, I'm thinking fronts to Large, No Sub, so its crossover is ignored completely. I admit I've never used sub this way. but it is the way my speaker company, Magnepan, recommends for their bass limited centers, so that the fronts get the bass, then the sub gets what it's set for, and the center & surrounds get sent to the fronts & sub. SC-57 owner purdyD has his set up that way.

another way could be to connect the sub to the fronts, speaker level connection, and use sub's (I think its low pass crossover) to remove all the freq's except the bass. I tend to get low pass & high pass filters confused so you should check out which one is correct for the connection scheme you want to do. I'm not certain if the receiver's crossover is low pass or high pass & Pioneer has never spelled it out. I usually have to do some reading & checking the terminology in other company's manuals to think it through.

from wiki

Low Pass Filter - A low-pass filter is an electronic filter that passes low-frequency signals and attenuates (reduces the amplitude of) signals with frequencies higher than the cutoff frequency

High Pass Filter - A high-pass filter (HPF) is an electronic filter that passes high-frequency signals but attenuates (reduces the amplitude of) signals with frequencies lower than the cutoff frequency

Master volume control on preamps >> yes, it changes the preamp output voltage so it can control what would go to an ext amp.

Looking at the block diagram for the SC-57 (same basic layout as 68), the preamp board has connections to both the amps & preamp outputs so I think you're right, they'd be hot all the time.

well, I'm a maggie user for many years & have used the Ice amp based SC-09 and the SC-68. not sure how "warm" is "warm" but I think the sound is consistent with my former Pioneer flagships with class A/B amps, the 49txi & 59txi. there's 1 or 2 who disagree and have stayed with the 59txi even tho it's at least 8 yrs old now IIRC. I also have an Innersound amp made by Coda that's class A/B and very hi powered amp made to drive e-stats.

Emotiva: this could end up being controversial

edit - I removed most of my comments on the XPA5. It just isn't relevant to your question and all it does is foment arguments I'm not dissing the XPA-5 per se, is an OK amp for its price. but it would not find a place in my setup. the XPA-1, 2, and XPR-5 are a different story. I fully accept that those meet & maintain their rated power I think you know where I'm coming from.

the SC-68 should hold its rated power up to 5 channels, then will naturally drop. keep in mind it has a 810 watt power supply, but that is class D so being 80-90% efficient, it should have the reserve to be very dynamic. but in comparison with the Denon 4520, a german reviewer who bench tested both, showed the Denon dropping drastically off to only 35 watts per ch at 7 channels. the limits of the power supply start to come into play.

H-K: I haven't had good luck with the 2 Harmon-Kardon products I owned a long time ago. both receivers had quality problems, one required lengthy stays in the repair shop & one was DOA! so I've had no interest in 40 years to own another one. I can't give you a comparison supposedly H-K is noted for conservative rated amps, a "warm" sound and having a form of Logic 7 surround processing which many Lexicon owners highly valued

there have been a number of maggie owners using the class D SC models over the past 5 years but I can't recall names.

for the record, I have 3.6's, CC3 & MC1 for surrounds. the 3.6's are on the ext amp because they do sound their best and best dynamics the more power you feed them. but I have driven them with the SC-09 & tried out the SC-68 on them and was pleased with the sound. the SC-68 held up very well

I don't think the SC-68 will have any trouble powering your MMG''s & be able to give you decent dynamic peaks. but you'll be using a sub anyway so I'd definitely set your MMG's as small, probably use 80 hz crossover.

if you were happy with the power of the H-K's by themselves, you should be with the 68's power.

what you might be noticing as "warm" may not be the amp but how H-K does room EQ. in this, you'll have to draw your own conclusion based on listening to a SC-68 with Pioneer's MCACC room EQ system. I've been happy with it with maggies for going on 10 years now. and if you'd like a bit extra warmth, you can tweak the 125, 250 hz bands to taste. I always felt my sound had body in the mid-bass, low mid-range areas (warmth) and didn't sound "lean". some attribute an edge to hi-freqs to class D design but I have no idea. I can say that all class D amps have the characteristic that distortion starts to rise in the high freqs > about 10-15K, but it's still well within low levels & is a gentle rise until you reach the clipping point. bench tests on the SC-57, the 1st with Pioneer's new class D design, actually showed lower & flatter distortion levels than the previous Icepower amps they used. the switching power supply in the new design is pulsed at about 500-600 Khz while the Ice amps were about 50-60Khz. just like oversampling a digital recording, faster power pulsing probably does = smoother sound.

and this is very subjective but to my ears, the SC-68 did seem to have just a bit less "edge" to the sound than the Ice amps in the SC-09 did, fuller, more rounded sounding. it reminded me of my class A/B Innersound amp but I think the difference in how Air Studios tuned each design plays a role. all this is definitely not scientific or objectivist just an opinion, consider it like all others....fwiw, ymmv

there are a number of MUG forum members who have used the big maggies with class D amps from D-Sonics, Wyred4Sound, Gilmore Raptors. but these are more powerful amps, being based on the 250, 500, & even 1000 watt Ice amps: http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/

my best advice is go take a listen. also you may want to PM forum member purdyd. he also uses maggies with his SC-57 and is also happy with his sound.
Edited by ss9001 - 1/25/13 at 2:19pm