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Speaker Shootout - eD Cinema 12's, JTR Triple 8's, CHT SHO-10's, Bill Fitzmaurice DR 250's. - Page 2

post #31 of 249
8/4/12 at 2:21pm
First of all, thank you very much for doing this.

Can you clarify identity of the speakers on the scorecards?
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post #32 of 249
8/4/12 at 2:52pm
Speaker A - Elemental Designs Cinema 12
Speaker B - JTR Speakers Triple 8
Speaker C - Chase Home Theater SHO-10
Speaker D - Bill Fitzmaurice DR250
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post #33 of 249
8/4/12 at 2:58pm
thank you very much.

I really appreciate the effort that was put into all this.
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post #34 of 249
8/4/12 at 3:10pm
I edited my first post with impressions. Just enjoy the writeup and try not to get too caught up into poking holes in the "scientific process" We all realize the limitations of the blind GTG. I would still encourage others to do the same kind of blind listening. It is almost nerve racking not knowing what you are listening to and you can be tentative to write your blind objective impressions for fear of "lookin da fool".

A great experience. I would make every effort to shorten and streamline the whole thing if you are going to attempt something like this. Then just put the results out there and let people poke all the holes in it that they want. If you are not having fun....you are not doing it right.

Enjoy
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post #35 of 249
8/4/12 at 3:17pm
Wow, the BFM 250's did terrible. That's a great contrast to what other's have said about them. Where they not EQ'd properly? Maybe MK can chime in about this. I would have thought the 250's would have beaten them all.
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post #36 of 249
8/4/12 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jindrak View Post

Wow, the BFM 250's did terrible. That's a great contrast to what other's have said about them. Where they not EQ'd properly? Maybe MK can chime in about this. I would have thought the 250's would have beaten them all.

I did mention how hard they are to get right. Mine are eq'd +/- 3dBs and I have a dead room. Remember I returned a set because they were unbearable. Maybe the 20 tweeters was a bit much? Desertdome likes his wedge 6's with 4. I know the difficulty with them but in my room not many speakers get harsh and these had the most detail. I am throwing the 888 lp in as a center in a few.
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post #37 of 249
8/4/12 at 3:42pm
Thanks for the impressions, guys. Sounds like it was a good time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am throwing the 888 lp in as a center in a few.

I can't wait to see what you think. If I remember correctly, you did not think that the JTR was worth the price difference over the SHO-10's. I'm interested to see what you think of the 2012 T8's and if there is any change in your opinion.
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post #38 of 249
8/4/12 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogues View Post

Thanks for the impressions, guys. Sounds like it was a good time.
I can't wait to see what you think. If I remember correctly, you did not think that the JTR was worth the price difference over the SHO-10's. I'm interested to see what you think of the 2012 T8's and if there is any change in your opinion.

I am watching ROTK right now with them. The first difference is sensitivity, my array is 10 dBs more sensitive going from -10 to 0 on the center trim knob.
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post #39 of 249
8/4/12 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

B. JTR Triple 8

Music
My favorite by a good margin for both music and HT. These speakers were NEVER harsh for me. They are the ONLY speakers that I did not get even the slightest amount of harshness and I wanted to turn them up but I resisted ( I wanted to keep the volume consistent with my material for all the speakers and that is exactly what I did). They did not seem like they were playing very loud but the SPL meter next to me told a different story.

The extra mid bass vs the previous speakers was immediately apparent and was hugely significant in my enjoyment. They win the mid bass hands down for me. They are the best all around speaker and I can really find no fault considering the price one would pay for a better all around speaker with an emphasis on HT.


And this is why nobody should rely on one person's opinion for these things. As Grant said you've got to check them out for yourself.

Grant and I were in the same room, demoing the exact same material and had different impressions on these two speakers for the areas of dynamic capability/max clean SPL and midbass. I turned Speaker B down because I felt like it was not happy playing the DeadMau5 track at +10dB. You thought it sounded good and would have preferred I turned it up. I felt that way about Speaker C and so I did, on Speaker B I didn't and so I turned it down. You thought the midbass was better on Speaker B. I agree the midbass was fantastic on Speaker B - I rated it a 4.5, but I thought Speaker C edged it out on midbass. Neither of us are wrong. We just have different tolerances, different perspectives, different historical speaker familiarity bias, different ears, different listening positions, different frequency responses at the listening positions we were in for each of those tracks etc.

WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too many variables to say - this speaker is the winner because this person said so.

Speakers are tricky to judge to be sure!


I'd probably need a round two (in my room) to decide if I personally prefer the JTR or the CHT to match my taste in sound. I know I've had the ED Cinema 12 in my room and loved them for movies. I'm going to watch a movie in my room on the Triple Eights tonight before I return them to BlueSprings1. It won't be a side by side in my room, but it'll be a fun movie watch none the less. I think I might watch Mission Impossible 4 for the first time tonight.
Edited by Archaea - 8/4/12 at 4:36pm
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post #40 of 249
8/4/12 at 4:28pm
I was lucky enough to be in Wisconsin and heard the triple 8's at JTR. I think that I'm going to order the SHO-10's and see how I like them. It seems to me that5 they should hold close to their value if I decide to sell them and go with the JTR's.
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post #41 of 249
8/4/12 at 4:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Archaea's Impressions:

Does it make sense? I was surprised with this because I always like the Cinema 12's in carps house,
[/IMG]

A few of you guys mentioned last night that the eD's had sounded better the previous times we were over here. Don't forget that you were hearing them eq'd the way I like them every time you were. Last night I obviously turned off that eq preset.
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post #42 of 249
8/4/12 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Archaea's Impressions:

Does it make sense? I was surprised with this because I always like the Cinema 12's in carps house,
[/IMG]

A few of you guys mentioned last night that the eD's had sounded better the previous times we were over here. Don't forget that you were hearing them eq'd the way I like them every time you were. Last night I obviously turned off that eq preset.

Completely agreed. I do love the Cinema 12s in your room the way you normally have them setup on every occasion I've had to listen to them (which at this point is many). Which is why I've not ruled them off own interest list, even though they placed below the other two speakers on my list in the blind (non eq'ed) test.
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post #43 of 249
8/4/12 at 4:43pm
I edited my impressions. I think Grant did a good job of covering disclaimers and caveats and I strongly echo his thoughts. I also echo Carp's thoughts, I don't feel like I'm a very proficient speaker demo'er the way a 2ch person would be, so I tried to break things up as well as I could while still giving overall impressions of what my ear is telling me to go along with the specifics. Also I inadvertently commandeered my scorecard so I'll try to scan that and get it to Archaea to post. It won't matter as nobody will be able to read any of my writing anyways, writing quickly on the floor in the dark when you can't write to begin with doesn't go so well.
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post #44 of 249
8/4/12 at 5:15pm
Thread Starter 
Here was my clip list:

1. Opeth - Bleak (Opening section with death vocals) - from Blackwater Park -

2. Opeth - A Fair Judgement (soft vocal section leading up to one of the greatest guitar solo's ever, but no time to include the solo and I already had a solo) - from Deliverance

3. Amon Amarth - Runes to my Memory (chorus) - from With Oden on Our Side

4. Metallica - Dyers Eve (last section, heavy riff leading up to "I'm in hell without you" etc.) - from And Justice for All

5. Nightwish - Dead Boy's Poem (soft vocals and small section after drums kick in) - from Wishmaster

6. Dream Theater - Hollow Years Live at Budakon - (part of amazing guitar solo) - Live at Budakon

7. Fear Factory - Resurrection - (last section, friggin awesome) - from Obsolete


Best part of all this, Archaea got goosebumps listening to METAL. Sure, the female track he could forgive himself for, the Dream Theater guitar solo is amazing so that's understandable, but Fear Factory? Frickin awesome!! He threw his pen at me in disgust when he admitted what happened. biggrin.gif

Next thing you know he'll be bobbing his head to Slayer. eek.gifsmile.gif
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post #45 of 249
8/4/12 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jindrak View Post

I would have thought the 250's would have beaten them all.
Only if EQ'd correctly, as I stated earlier in the thread. Since the listeners found them shrill they weren't. Remember that not only are they configured for maximum sensitivity at the expense of flat response, the high frequency section is configured for use at distances of 30 to 300 feet in highly reverberant spaces, so they won't sound good in an HT environment unless EQ'd flat.
Quote:
Desertdome likes his wedge 6's with 4.
Since the intended use for the W6 is as a stage monitor, where the average listening distance is about 6 feet, far fewer tweeters are used.
The sensitivity of the 20 tweeter array in the DR250 can be greatly lessened by wiring them as four series banks rather than two, or you can just use a smaller array. I know I wouldn't want to be in close proximity to a twenty tweeter array, let alone two or more of them, unless they were seriously attenuated.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 8/4/12 at 5:24pm
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post #46 of 249
8/4/12 at 6:23pm
Archaea,
I am not kidding here, before I read your post about your impressions I put the JTR 888 in and watched ROTK and one thing I noticed was the chain sounding like a chain when it fell. I read your post an laughed as we noticed the same thing. I need to put the array back in to listen to the chain now! So far my array is better with clarity(they both have gobs of it but the array is louder), dynamics, bigger sound, etc... Like I said before they are also 10 dBs more sensitive! However if they don't play the chains as good I will call them not as accurate, we shall see. I have tons of wall treatments, flat, and I am running pure class A into them.
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post #47 of 249
8/4/12 at 7:11pm
One More thing, my first set of DR's sound like ass and the builder messed up the crossover. My next set your build to spec and they are not shrill at all.
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post #48 of 249
8/4/12 at 7:43pm
How would one determine if the crossover was incorrect on the build? just the sound alone?
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post #49 of 249
8/4/12 at 8:18pm
I don' t know, every builder has the same plans but one guy never connected the crossover. Maybe that is why it was not balanced? It almost sound like something was wrong with the woofer but you said it sound great on some material. After I heard that it makes it seem like a frequency problem. A flat response should sound the same or have the same characteristics no matter what is playing. I know exactly what you guys heard and it sound like my first set with no crossovers. Also, my eD's did not sound harsh in my room as well but they had the DE-250's.
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post #50 of 249
8/4/12 at 8:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

And this is why nobody should rely on one person's opinion for these things. As Grant said you've got to check them out for yourself.
Grant and I were in the same room, demoing the exact same material and had different impressions on these two speakers for the areas of dynamic capability/max clean SPL and midbass. I turned Speaker B down because I felt like it was not happy playing the DeadMau5 track at +10dB. You thought it sounded good and would have preferred I turned it up. I felt that way about Speaker C and so I did, on Speaker B I didn't and so I turned it down. You thought the midbass was better on Speaker B. I agree the midbass was fantastic on Speaker B - I rated it a 4.5, but I thought Speaker C edged it out on midbass. Neither of us are wrong. We just have different tolerances, different perspectives, different historical speaker familiarity bias, different ears, different listening positions, different frequency responses at the listening positions we were in for each of those tracks etc.
WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too many variables to say - this speaker is the winner because this person said so.
Speakers are tricky to judge to be sure!
I'd probably need a round two (in my room) to decide if I personally prefer the JTR or the CHT to match my taste in sound. I know I've had the ED Cinema 12 in my room and loved them for movies. I'm going to watch a movie in my room on the Triple Eights tonight before I return them to BlueSprings1. It won't be a side by side in my room, but it'll be a fun movie watch none the less. I think I might watch Mission Impossible 4 for the first time tonight.

Agree with everything.

I loved MI Ghost Protocol and the sound was fantastic at the IMAX. You are going to enjoy this one.
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post #51 of 249
8/4/12 at 9:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I don' t know, every builder has the same plans but one guy never connected the crossover. Maybe that is why it was not balanced? It almost sound like something was wrong with the woofer but you said it sound great on some material. After I heard that it makes it seem like a frequency problem. A flat response should sound the same or have the same characteristics no matter what is playing. I know exactly what you guys heard and it sound like my first set with no crossovers. Also, my eD's did not sound harsh in my room as well but they had the DE-250's.

I am very interested in how the ED's would sound with the DE-250's. That might take care of one of my complaints with them. Then I would likely reverse my order on the ED and SHO-10's. All speculation of course.

But, the mid bass would still be better on the T8's in my opinion.

And as I said before it would be great to listen to the DR250's dialed in some day.
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post #52 of 249
8/4/12 at 9:29pm
I will add a bit on my JTR Orbit Shifter that I took to Carps for anyone interested. Unfortunately, we set it up wrong in the AVR (you are suppose to add 14ft to the distance setting). We were not able to find a good place in the corner for it. That may be because we did not have the distance setting correct. We also only tried one corner. The frequency response per omnimic was a bit challenging and we used his SMS-1 to help it out a little. So anyway we did not have it set up properly.

I thought it still sounded very good. I won't get too detailed here but I thought it had great impact and it was clean. My frame of reference for bass is a bit skewed recently after listening to subs WAY hot at Carps a few months ago so I was a bit confused about what I thought. I should try to listen to his dual SubM HP's at a reasonable level (maybe +5-7dB) and reset my expectations. I will let Carp add his impressions if he feels like it but I think he liked what he heard.

I can't wait to see what kind of response I get in my room. Hopefully it can be dialed in and learn to get along with another sub (possibly a Growler) for use as a room mode smoother.
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post #53 of 249
8/4/12 at 9:50pm
Hey guys, just wondering what the power as used for the speakers. If it was an AVR then that would explain why the SHO-10's could go louder better. It has an 8 ohm load and the 888 has a 4 ohm load. I used to shut down AVR's with my JBL's which are more sensitive than the 888's but a 4 ohm. If using a power amp then who knows why.
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post #54 of 249
8/4/12 at 10:47pm
Great reviews! As a SHO owner it's nice to compare blindly for the surprises. The SHO-10 is a laid back smooth operator unless you want to play street ball then it will throw elbows with the best. Even AVRs power is great but external amps can really throw the juice for greater dynamics. Wish the DR's would of had a better chance with setup. My mind goes back to Huskers meet where no review on the improper DTS-10. If setup correctly can re-arrange your perspective on what is too much and start questioning the rooms structural integrity.

Kudo's to you guys taking the time for all this.
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post #55 of 249
8/4/12 at 11:02pm
Awesome Thread Guys! I've really enjoyed reading everyones thoughts. Great Job!

Does anyone know what year build the JTR T8 were? Also were they the LP (Low Profile) or vented model. I only ask as I believe all 2011 and newer models uses an improved compression driver and different crossover.
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post #56 of 249
8/4/12 at 11:42pm
I'd like to thank you Carp, for hosting. You have a nice home and theater.

Arrived home not too long ago. Ears are still ringing a bit.
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post #57 of 249
8/5/12 at 12:34am
Thank for this guys!

I am very intrigued now. I do own DefTech speakers and like them, but am not as happy with my center channel as I used to be. It seems that it's just not large enough for the room.

It seems that the general consensus between the few chaps that did this GTG is that the JTRs and CHTs are great.

Now I have a few questions.

Are there any other reviews, tests on the JTRs and the CHTs?

How is it even remotely justifiable to pay this huge difference between the JTs and the CHTs

JTR: http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht/

CHT: https://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=142&redirected=1&Itemid=142


I understand that the JTRs have 2 more drivers than the CHTs which explains the cost difference, but how can they both sound similar?

And another question, may be a dumb question, but where are the tweeters on either of the Speakers???

Ray
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post #58 of 249
8/5/12 at 3:13am
He JTR tweeter is hidden behind the driver and the tweeter on the SHO-10 is buried in the horn. They both use a CD I think. The JTR is a coaxial and the SHO-10 is a horn. At the beginning I mentioned you guys would be impressed with the SHO-10 and would have a hard time justifying price differences. I also mentioned the issues with DR's. I know there are a few here you like their DR's very much and much better than very good speakers. The SHO-10 for me is a no brainer as ease of setup, price and performance come to mind. The DR is even cheaper and can have even greater performance but the tweaking involved makes you wonder if it is worth it, DIY is like that.
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post #59 of 249
8/5/12 at 6:12am
I posted my impressions. If I posted anything that offends you, I hope it doesn't affect you as bad as it did to me when MrSmithers and Archaea played Michael Jackson clips. The frightening memories of Neverland. I almost had those blocked out. Remember there are tons of variables and I won't even get into how hard it would be to control or even choose the ideal setup for speakers with such different implementations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Only if EQ'd correctly, as I stated earlier in the thread. Since the listeners found them shrill they weren't. Remember that not only are they configured for maximum sensitivity at the expense of flat response, the high frequency section is configured for use at distances of 30 to 300 feet in highly reverberant spaces, so they won't sound good in an HT environment unless EQ'd flat.

I'm not entirely sure how desertdome EQ the DR 250s and the specifics of the Omni-Mic measurement. He collected smoothed graphs at the listening positioning after finished integrating speakers. The JTR and Sho-10 rolled off the highs the most while the Ed and DR 250 had a more extended frequency response. The Ed extending further while the DR had some more ~ 10 kHz energy (I have no idea what the y axis scale was so not sure how much higher compared to rest). I'm not sure if the JTR and Sho-10 are more rolled on the top due to crossover, high frequency loss with distance, the mic, or a difference of 0.1-0.2 ms of delay [Edit - between left and right speaker]. If only due to high frequency loss, an extended response may seem harsher/ more fatiguing right (depending on the tweeter natural impulse)? It seemed to be mostly the 10 kHz area that was killing people. Even after attenuating the top later, it was not as bad but similar traits were still there. I'm more familiar with REWs FFT windows,and my mic so I can't really help.
Edited by kwarny - 8/5/12 at 1:52pm
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post #60 of 249
8/5/12 at 6:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

I will add a bit on my JTR Orbit Shifter that I took to Carps for anyone interested. Unfortunately, we set it up wrong in the AVR (you are suppose to add 14ft to the distance setting). We were not able to find a good place in the corner for it. That may be because we did not have the distance setting correct. We also only tried one corner. The frequency response per omnimic was a bit challenging and we used his SMS-1 to help it out a little. So anyway we did not have it set up properly.
I thought it still sounded very good. I won't get too detailed here but I thought it had great impact and it was clean. My frame of reference for bass is a bit skewed recently after listening to subs WAY hot at Carps a few months ago so I was a bit confused about what I thought. I should try to listen to his dual SubM HP's at a reasonable level (maybe +5-7dB) and reset my expectations. I will let Carp add his impressions if he feels like it but I think he liked what he heard.
I can't wait to see what kind of response I get in my room. Hopefully it can be dialed in and learn to get along with another sub (possibly a Growler) for use as a room mode smoother.

I agree that the os sounded great, I posted about it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1247005/official-jtr-orbit-shifter-subwoofer-thread/510#post_22279243
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Speaker Shootout - eD Cinema 12's, JTR Triple 8's, CHT SHO-10's, Bill Fitzmaurice DR 250's.