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Windows Media Center vs TiVo Premiere - Page 18

post #511 of 537
6/5/13 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Not true, Myth works fine with Cablecard tuners and encrypted channels, because the tuners do the decryption and Myth just writes the mpeg2 UDP stream to disk. SiliconDust and Ceton both provide Linux drivers for their tuners.
Thanks for the info, that's a new one on me. I wonder if any of the PC-based DVR apps will do the same.
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post #512 of 537
6/5/13 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

If I understand you correctly, there are encrypted channels that can't be tuned with a standard QAM tuner, but if you use a CableCard to decrypt them, you're allowed to copy them freely, and MythTV can be used with a CC-compatible tuner for that purpose? I wasn't aware such a configuration was used by any content providers. I had thought that all encrypted channels were already using the "copy-once" flag, and that the "copy-freely" mode was only used in unencrypted content. I wonder how long the cable companies that provide pay channels as "copy freely" will continue to do so.
With so many customers being sold room-to-room sharing DVRs and copy-once causing some issues with that, I imagine cable companies promoting such a service to boost their sales will keep them flagged copy-freely as long as its "legal" and profitable.
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post #513 of 537
6/6/13 at 5:53am
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Originally Posted by tluxon View Post

Well, that's good to know. The last I checked on the Silicondust forums, I don't recall seeing anybody talking about using the HDHR Prime on MythTV, so when someone on the WeGotServed forums told me WMC was the only DVR application that could use them, I took their word for it. Since we're on Comcast and very few channels are flagged 'copy-once', I guess we'll have to give MythTV a shot on our Debian host. I hope it's not too much of a hassle to set up and works as well or better than WMC with the networked tuners.

They have an entire forum dedicated to the Prime with Myth, been around since the product was released. Guess you missed it.
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post #514 of 537
6/6/13 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

If I understand you correctly, there are encrypted channels that can't be tuned with a standard QAM tuner, but if you use a CableCard to decrypt them, you're allowed to copy them freely, and MythTV can be used with a CC-compatible tuner for that purpose? I wasn't aware such a configuration was used by any content providers. I had thought that all encrypted channels were already using the "copy-once" flag, and that the "copy-freely" mode was only used in unencrypted content. I wonder how long the cable companies that provide pay channels as "copy freely" will continue to do so.

Correct, as long as the channels are 'copy-free' there is no issue with Cablecard tuners for any DVR because the tuner uses the Cablecard to determine which channels it can get and decrypt and then send over your network unencrypted. So it's entirely dependent on which provider you have as to how much you can watch with a non-WMC DVR - some aggressively protect everything but the locals with copy-once, some don't.

Copy-free or once is separate from encryption, in other words.
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post #515 of 537
6/6/13 at 6:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tluxon View Post

With so many customers being sold room-to-room sharing DVRs and copy-once causing some issues with that, I imagine cable companies promoting such a service to boost their sales will keep them flagged copy-freely as long as its "legal" and profitable.
Copy-once does not cause problems with multi-room viewing (MRV) when the programs are streamed between units, only when copied. The cable and FIOS MRV setups I'm aware of will stream the content from the main multi-tuner DVR to the satellite STB's in the household. There is no copying going on so there is no violation of the copy-once flag. TiVo has always had a problem with this because their MRV solution traditionally involved a transfer (copying) of the content from TiVo-A to TiVo-B. As a result MRV was prohibited when the content was flagged with copy-once. TiVo has addressed this recently with the introduction of the TiVo Mini which is a streaming module, but only for the 4-tuner Elite.
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post #516 of 537
6/6/13 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Copy-once does not cause problems with multi-room viewing (MRV) when the programs are streamed between units, only when copied. The cable and FIOS MRV setups I'm aware of will stream the content from the main multi-tuner DVR to the satellite STB's in the household. There is no copying going on so there is no violation of the copy-once flag. TiVo has always had a problem with this because their MRV solution traditionally involved a transfer (copying) of the content from TiVo-A to TiVo-B. As a result MRV was prohibited when the content was flagged with copy-once. TiVo has addressed this recently with the introduction of the TiVo Mini which is a streaming module, but only for the 4-tuner Elite.

That is how my Moxi DVR works. I always thought of it like a server / client relationship; all recordings managed, recorded, and stored on the server, and they are streamed to the client when requested.

Mark
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post #517 of 537
6/6/13 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Copy-once does not cause problems with multi-room viewing (MRV) when the programs are streamed between units, only when copied. The cable and FIOS MRV setups I'm aware of will stream the content from the main multi-tuner DVR to the satellite STB's in the household. There is no copying going on so there is no violation of the copy-once flag. TiVo has always had a problem with this because their MRV solution traditionally involved a transfer (copying) of the content from TiVo-A to TiVo-B. As a result MRV was prohibited when the content was flagged with copy-once. TiVo has addressed this recently with the introduction of the TiVo Mini which is a streaming module, but only for the 4-tuner Elite.

You could also stream from Premiere to Premiere before the Minis came out, no need to buy Minis if you already have the boxes. The whole MRV thing was stupid anyway because Tivo could have simply deleted the original recording after it was transferred but chose not to (so there would only be one copy at any time, with a warning to the user of course). So people stuck on Time Warner etc. really hated the restriction that Tivo artifically imposed, but there weren't enough of them complaining to matter I guess.
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post #518 of 537
6/6/13 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

They have an entire forum dedicated to the Prime with Myth, been around since the product was released. Guess you missed it.
Well, apparently I have a lot of company in that regard, LOL. That forum has only existed since late February, and as a whole, the Silicondust forums see very little action relative to other forums I frequent, so I never really fell into the habit of perusing there.

Most pc/server -based forums have had a prevailing meme that MythTV -like PVR software is restricted when it comes to cable or satellite TV. When I set up my PC with WMC last year I looked for alternatives and nothing jumped out at me that would play the CableCard game and that's primarily why I stuck with WMC all the way through the NCAA tournament. Now that I'm not recording 24/7 (seemingly) and I've built a new server with a Debian host, I'm extremely interested in running something that doesn't require a Windows host and that's the reason I broached the topic.

While on the topic, I saw something on the forum suggesting that running Myth with the Prime may require updated firmware on the CableCard. Can you confirm if this is the case (so I could plan around the time required to do get this done)?

Thanks!
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post #519 of 537
6/6/13 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Copy-once does not cause problems with multi-room viewing (MRV) when the programs are streamed between units, only when copied. The cable and FIOS MRV setups I'm aware of will stream the content from the main multi-tuner DVR to the satellite STB's in the household. There is no copying going on so there is no violation of the copy-once flag. TiVo has always had a problem with this because their MRV solution traditionally involved a transfer (copying) of the content from TiVo-A to TiVo-B. As a result MRV was prohibited when the content was flagged with copy-once. TiVo has addressed this recently with the introduction of the TiVo Mini which is a streaming module, but only for the 4-tuner Elite.
Thanks for clarifying this. My myopic view of the subject was indeed tainted by too many years of relying on copying rather than streaming due to how TiVos and the old Comcast DVRs handled MRV and transferring to PC.
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post #520 of 537
6/6/13 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

The whole MRV thing was stupid anyway because Tivo could have simply deleted the original recording after it was transferred but chose not to (so there would only be one copy at any time, with a warning to the user of course). So people stuck on Time Warner etc. really hated the restriction that Tivo artifically imposed, but there weren't enough of them complaining to matter I guess.

I would put more of the blame on TWC. They are not required to flag everything copy-once, and many cable companies don't follow TWC's lead. Therefore, they appear to be doing so just to make life more difficult for customers using non-TWC equipment. But, at least they're not encrypting all channels (yet).

Nevertheless, since it's the only legal way to transfer copy-once recordings, I do agree that TiVo should add a "move" function that deletes the original once the transfer is complete.
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post #521 of 537
6/6/13 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

I would put more of the blame on TWC. They are not required to flag everything copy-once, and many cable companies don't follow TWC's lead. Therefore, they appear to be doing so just to make life more difficult for customers using non-TWC equipment. But, at least they're not encrypting all channels (yet).
I would think that it isn't so much an issue of making life difficult for customers using non-TWC equipment...I'm thinking that the parent company, which produces (I think) nearly a third of all TV/movie entertainment, wants them to set the copy-once flag. The fact that it trips up TiVo is unlikely to even be on their radar.
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post #522 of 537
6/6/13 at 1:59pm
Good point. I'm not sure it's a third, but surely it's a substantial amount: Time-Warner is one of the Big 6 content providers. OTOH, Comcast, which owns another of the Big 6 (NBC/Universal), doesn't do this.

... although Comcast is behind another cable sin: encrypting all channels, even the locals you can legally get free, and thereby bricking all clear-QAM tuners connected to them. (Depending on your location, they may still have some unscrambled analog channels, however.)
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post #523 of 537
6/7/13 at 4:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNO821 View Post

I would think that it isn't so much an issue of making life difficult for customers using non-TWC equipment...I'm thinking that the parent company, which produces (I think) nearly a third of all TV/movie entertainment, wants them to set the copy-once flag. The fact that it trips up TiVo is unlikely to even be on their radar.

Time Warner does not own TWC, it was spun off long ago. However, TWC has always been hostile to Cablecard so copy-once was easy for them to do once they figured out the FCC wouldn't do anything about it.
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post #524 of 537
6/7/13 at 4:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tluxon View Post

Well, apparently I have a lot of company in that regard, LOL. That forum has only existed since late February, and as a whole, the Silicondust forums see very little action relative to other forums I frequent, so I never really fell into the habit of perusing there.

While on the topic, I saw something on the forum suggesting that running Myth with the Prime may require updated firmware on the CableCard. Can you confirm if this is the case (so I could plan around the time required to do get this done)?

Actually the forum started with the Prime's release a couple of years ago (as indicated by the date of the sticky at the top of the forum) but SD put in crappy new forum software earlier this year and when they did so a lot of the old threads got archived or whacked. There was a lot more content there last year.

Doesn't really matter, all you need is the Myth wiki page for setup and the SD tuner web page for card activation. I have no idea if new card firmware is needed but there's not much you can do about that IIRC, the cableCo pushes that down.
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post #525 of 537
6/7/13 at 7:42am
Thread Starter 

To tread further off topic... when I moved my HTPC out of the dedicated room (into the den - selling off the Xbox) I needed a way to play HD video/audio and haven't convinced myself yet to build a PC. In there I need HD audio as badly as HD video and I found the WD TV Play. It's very low-end for a streamer but it does one thing very well. It plays MKV HD files wonderfully via DLNA. Including bitstream HD audio which the other WD models and most of the low-end models won't. It's often $69 and I grabbed one at $65.

 

http://www.amazon.com/WD-TV-Play-Media-Player/dp/B008YDUTRO/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1370614509&sr=1-1&keywords=wd+tv+play

 

I tried using XBMC as a DLNA server and it worked great. Although, I wanted to separate my MKV files from the HTPC giving it a little more space for recordings and at the same time not worry about waking it up when I wanted to access the files. Also, I could use a little backup help so I took a look at low-end NAS devices. Nothing fancy... just a place to store a few movies and a few duplicated files. I ran across the Iomega 2TB EZ Media & Backup Center. Heck it was $79 (that price seems to come and go) and includes a 2TB drive (easily removed) that was worth the price alone.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Iomega-Media-Backup-Center-35541/dp/B007A2JNGS/ref=sr_sp-atf_image_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1370615001&sr=1-1&keywords=iomega

 

Much like the streamer it's very low-end but does exactly what I needed. So far zero issues with either. There isn't a media wall or whatnot rather a simple listing of titles but it serves like a champ. Remote access is rather easy and it takes just a few minutes to configure and unlike those USB drives attached to various routers it's fast and reliable. It streams to XBMC as well so I'm covered in both places.

 

Both devices are very low-end feature wise so if you are looking to build a powerful/flexible client/server arrangement this ain't it! But if you can live within their specs you'll have a very nice solution... at least after several movies I'm convinced. Worse case you end up with a 2TB drive and a Netflix streamer for the wife. smile.gif


Edited by Charles R - 6/7/13 at 9:19am
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post #526 of 537
6/7/13 at 11:02am
@Charles - Before settling on WMC, did you ever try MythTV or one of the other PVR software solutions? Why or why not? (I'm just curious what you consider to be the pros and cons of alternatives)
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post #527 of 537
6/7/13 at 11:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tluxon View Post

Before settling on WMC, did you ever try MythTV or one of the other PVR software solutions? Why or why not? (I'm just curious what you consider to be the pros and cons of alternatives)

 

Not to any extent - just the typical research and I didn't find anything that would be better suited for my (very) limited needs. I'm a watch and delete guy so I have zero interest in archiving content and I have a need for 1.5 displays... worse case down the road 2.5. In my den, dedicated room (99% movies) and perhaps the Hearth room if my wife every finds a cabinet... exercise room I have live TV via antenna input and streamer with workout videos via USB.

 

So having tons of clients isn't required and I need to view content commercial delayed (while still being recorded) which isn't possible in some configurations. I figured WMC was free (came with the $300 PC) so why not give it a try. Fortunately, it performs as good or better (4 tuners for OTA) than TiVo ever did so I had zero reasons to look elsewhere. Now someone else might have plenty of reasons based on their needs.

 

I have looked at XBMC's DVR support with their 12.x release and so far I'm not ready to switch... just don't see any reason to and quite a few not to at this time. What little I know about MythTV (why I didn't even try) may be so far off the wall I won't even express my opinion on why I passed. I gave WMC 30 days to replace TiVo for the cost of Lifetime and it met the challenge and shortly it will be a year and I'm completely happy with the experience... not one missed recording.

 

After a year WMC is a little boring and virtually a set top box which is exactly what I appreciate. At the same time I like to tweak (on my terms) so I'm hoping SilconDust's new tuners open up a can of worms and introduce a decent DVR solution. I don't have a lot of hope regarding the DVR app so I'm guessing WMC isn't going anywhere soon.  However, if they pull it off I'll gladly recycle my tuners and add a few thin clients for the fun factor alone. It just need to come close to what WMC does now...


Edited by Charles R - 6/7/13 at 12:03pm
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post #528 of 537
6/7/13 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

However, TWC has always been hostile to Cablecard so copy-once was easy for them to do once they figured out the FCC wouldn't do anything about it.
They are pretty liberal with copy-once, but they were a lot easier (admittedly 7 years ago now, when I was in upstate NY) to get a CableCARD install from that the company I have now - had to complain to the FCC to get the company I'm currently on to cooperate at first. TWC was like "oh, you have a Series3 TiVo? Sure, 2 cards. Here's when we'll be out." Done/done.
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post #529 of 537
6/12/13 at 2:11pm
Thread Starter 

Since the thread is beyond dead... anyone else try the High contrast black Theme? I recently gave it a try and I'm using it now... quite a difference from the default one. Now, I'm not installing other Themes so don't suggest any (for me) although others might appreciate it. Quickly approaching my one year WMC anniversary... perhaps I should celebrate with building one of those NUC guys. Anyone hear about the new HDHomeRun's getting released?

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post #530 of 537
6/13/13 at 7:14pm
Are you talking about the one found here? http://www.hack7mc.com/2009/02/tired-of-blue-try-black-7mc-theme.html


I tried it. Live TV won't run with the thing. It just crashes.
Edited by bowenap - 6/13/13 at 8:31pm
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post #531 of 537
6/14/13 at 6:23am
Anyone looking for an inexpensive Windows Media Center extender, the 360 Slim 4GB at the lowest price I've ever seen it: http://slickdeals.net/f/6091786-4GB-Microsoft-Xbox-360-Console-pre-owned-60-Free-Shipping
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post #532 of 537
6/14/13 at 7:10am
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Originally Posted by rdb4133 View Post

Anyone looking for an inexpensive Windows Media Center extender, the 360 Slim 4GB at the lowest price I've ever seen it: http://slickdeals.net/f/6091786-4GB-Microsoft-Xbox-360-Console-pre-owned-60-Free-Shipping
Shoot! Already OOS. Thanks for posting though. That was a great find. Hopefully there will be many more opportunities to pick up these old ones cheap with the new 360s coming out.
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post #533 of 537
6/14/13 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowenap View Post

Are you talking about the one found here? http://www.hack7mc.com/2009/02/tired-of-blue-try-black-7mc-theme.html


I tried it. Live TV won't run with the thing. It just crashes.
Same here. I wish this stuff worked on my system, but every time I try things like this it either slows my WMC down to a crawl or makes it unstable. MCL and Relaunch seem to work fine though. Otherwise I try to leave WMC alone.
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post #534 of 537
6/14/13 at 7:25am
I actually was able to update my theme later after I posted using the MCS workaround posted here in the AVS Forum. Granted, it took me a while to figure out to create the "Apps" and "2.0" folder.

The link is here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1366982/media-center-studio-workaround

It even worked on my XBox 360.
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post #535 of 537
6/14/13 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Shoot! Already OOS. Thanks for posting though. That was a great find. Hopefully there will be many more opportunities to pick up these old ones cheap with the new 360s coming out.

Cowboom is just reselling some other users' old stuff, nothing to get excited about (good price though). Gamestop has used Xboxes all the time for $120 or so, or just get one with a broken DVD on craigslist or fleabay for less than $100.
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post #536 of 537
6/14/13 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Cowboom is just reselling some other users' old stuff, nothing to get excited about (good price though). Gamestop has used Xboxes all the time for $120 or so, or just get one with a broken DVD on craigslist or fleabay for less than $100.
Yeah, I realize Cowboom is just where Best Buy resells their returns, among other things. I recently sold all my Xboxes for about $100 each CL. I'd originally got them all from CL for $100 each to begin with. I don't necessarily want another Xbox, but $60 is too hard to pass up since I could use a few more extenders. If I'm going to have to spend a $100, I'd just hold out for more Echos. I already got a couple for that price, but they aren't as plentiful as Xboxes, so it takes a lot of searching and patience to get a really good deal. I do benefit from the fact that a lot of people hate their Echos and want to get rid of them. Since I only use them as extenders, Echos work perfectly well for me. I could do without the noise, size and power usage of Xbox.

I absolutely love Cowboom. I've been picking up Best Buy return deals for years, back when It was just an ebay store front and before it was even called Cowboom. You can get excellent deals on disc players and recorders. I got a ton of them over the years, most under $40. The beauty of it is many Best Buy returns are due to the original owner being unable to figure out how to use the device or simply changing their mind, as far as I can tell. So most are in perfect condition.
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post #537 of 537
6/14/13 at 2:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowenap View Post

Are you talking about the one found here? http://www.hack7mc.com/2009/02/tired-of-blue-try-black-7mc-theme.html


I tried it. Live TV won't run with the thing. It just crashes.

 

No, I meant the one included in WMC... it's rather hokey but different.

 

Tasks - Settings - General - Visual and Sound Effects - color theme: High contrast black

 

I tried Cowboom once and it wasn't for me... ended up returned. Although, I'm a unless it's sealed I won't purchase it guy anyway so that's not surprising. Even my wife makes fun of me.. I'll open something up (not sealed of course)... look it over and if I decide to purchase it I'll have to purchase another one that hasn't been opened. smile.gif Oh, the box has to be in perfect shape too...

 

Staying off topic the Windows 8 Netflix App has been delightful. I've burned through a season of Mad Men and closing in on House of Cards with zero complaints. Great video/audio with a nice clean interface. About my only complaint is it automatically jumps to the next episode too quickly... at times I'd prefer to enjoy the credits' sound track a little longer. Anyone else feel House of Cards plays out like a better done Damages?


Edited by Charles R - 6/14/13 at 2:46pm
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