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TiVo or HTPC?

post #1 of 46
7/30/12 at 9:16pm
Thread Starter 
I just bought 2 320GB TiVo Premiere boxes, both with lifetime for about $1000 out the door. Now I'm seriously thinking of other options. I already have an always-on box that runs Windows 7 Pro and has 10 HDD bays. It serves a Mac mini content to play on XBMC and also content to a few Popcorn Hours.

So I already have 1 Xbox 360. Should I buy a Ceton InfiniTV 4 tuner card + an additional base Xbox 360 to use as another extender? I figure the Ceton would cost $200, the Xbox $200, + maybe another $150 for a 3tb HDD. I wish there were other extenders out there as I could care less about gaming.

What have others experiences been with the Ceton card? Is it worth it? Should I just suck it up and stay with the ever reliable TiVo units?

Thoughts?
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post #2 of 46
7/31/12 at 5:13am
Let me get this straight - you just laid down a grand on Tivos and now you want to roll your own HTPC? How many TVs do you want to use DVRs on?

I use the Silicondust HD Homerun Prime in my WMC PC with a couple of Xboxes and a Linksys extender, and it's been very reliable. The only issue I've had is an occasional 'no tuners available' error which is solved by a PC reboot. Could be the SD drivers, could be WMC itself.

My Tivo HDs were rock-solid until one of the drives went out, but that was an easy fix. My latest Tivo Elite has an unstable and laggy HDUI interface which I quickly switched back to SD. It's been good since that, but it's sad that I can't run the menus in HD - the program guide in particular is way better than SD.
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post #3 of 46
7/31/12 at 7:21am
Stick with the TiVo's and network them to your always on media-PC -- that's the arrangement I have. Put the TiVo server software on the media-PC and you can transfer any non-protected recordings back and forth between your TiVo's and your disk farm for "unlimited" storage or collecting.
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post #4 of 46
7/31/12 at 9:55am
PC's are power hogs. You can probably run at least three TiVo's for the same power consumption of a single PC.
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post #5 of 46
7/31/12 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
I only have 2 tvs that need DVR service.

I'm not worried about power consumption, I already have the always-on media server.

I'm looking for reliable TiVo substitutes I can use with said always-on media server. I figure if I can save $500 or so dollars by only having to purchase a tuner (perhaps the HD Homerun), another Xbox 360 as media extender, and a hard drive, then why not.

I really just don't want this PC tuner option to turn out to be a big hassle, always having to reboot, and the wife complaining about the tv not working. That's what I don't want. That hassle would not be worth the upfront $500 savings.....
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post #6 of 46
7/31/12 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post

I'm looking for reliable TiVo substitutes I can use with said always-on media server.

 

If you haven't looked here give it a read. I'm sort of doing the same thing... for me the make it or break it is the user-interface. If the remote can even come close to the peanut I'm beginning to think it's worth a shot.

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post #7 of 46
7/31/12 at 3:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

If you haven't looked here give it a read. I'm sort of doing the same thing... for me the make it or break it is the user-interface. If the remote can even come close to the peanut I'm beginning to think it's worth a shot.

I did find your post after I posted mine. Good read indeed.

Honestly though, how stable is it?

The only reason I have Tivos is so I can record stuff that you can't download like HGTV shows and live sports.

Get a Harmony One or 900 remote. You will never use anything else. It's a must have.
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post #8 of 46
8/1/12 at 6:40am
Quote:
I'm not worried about power consumption, I already have the always-on media server.
Not very green are we?
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post #9 of 46
8/1/12 at 7:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post

Honestly though, how stable is it?

Get a Harmony One or 900 remote. You will never use anything else. It's a must have.

 

Used strictly as a DVR I don't see any stability issues. If you treat it like an appliance rather than a PC it should be as reliable. Heck TiVo is a PC that just happens to run another OS... and in the past has had various issues that waited for an update to be resolved. Now if you are using it as a PC loading this and that I can see you running into a pickle at times.

 

I'm not the biggest Harmony fan. It might have been my model (the 550). I never liked the position/feel of the buttons and after a relatively long period of time it simply stopped working (beyond the warranty). I think TiVo's peanut remote is one of the best AV things ever. TiVo's simple interface could come across as old and feature less but their remote is so easy to use (effortless and comfortable) that it makes up for it. For me ease of use is a biggie when it comes to TV viewing... WMC has to stop being a PC and become an appliance. The remote I ordered includes an IR receiver so I can use a Harmony down the line if I decide to go that way.

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post #10 of 46
8/1/12 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

PC's are power hogs. You can probably run at least three TiVo's for the same power consumption of a single PC.
You haven't built a PC lately, it's routine to see Intel boxes use less than 40w at idle. Not much more than a Premiere which uses 27 or so.
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post #11 of 46
8/1/12 at 7:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Used strictly as a DVR I don't see any stability issues. If you treat it like an appliance rather than a PC it should be as reliable. Heck TiVo is a PC that just happens to run another OS... and in the past has had various issues that waited for an update to be resolved. Now if you are using it as a PC loading this and that I can see you running into a pickle at times.

I'm not the biggest Harmony fan. It might have been my model (the 550). I never liked the position/feel of the buttons and after a relatively long period of time it simply stopped working (beyond the warranty). I think TiVo's peanut remote is one of the best AV things ever. TiVo's simple interface could come across as old and feature less but their remote is so easy to use (effortless and comfortable) that it makes up for it. For me ease of use is a biggie when it comes to TV viewing... WMC has to stop being a PC and become an appliance. The remote I ordered includes an IR receiver so I can use a Harmony down the line if I decide to go that way.

So I would most likely use two Xbox 360 units as media extenders. I have the original Xbox 360 that is loud as hell. Does the fan crank up on it when using the Media Center on it? What about the newer 'Slim' $199 version? Is it also loud?

How exactly do the 3 tuners work together on two Xbox 360 media extenders? For example, if the Xbox 360 in the family room is watching HGTV and I go into the Xbox 360 in the master bedroom and it happens to be on the same tuner as the family room and I change the channel, is it going to change the channel on the person watching HGTV in the family room? I'm really curious to see how this all works together.

I'm definitely getting closer to pulling the trigger on this setup and returning my TiVos and Lifetime.
Edited by acribb - 8/1/12 at 7:59am
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post #12 of 46
8/1/12 at 10:01am

- I haven't used the 360 extender yet. So I'd search for background on it's usage. I'll probably end up with one in my den or dedicated room. I'm guessing in the den as I don't think you can stream HD audio (DTS-HD MA and TrueHD) via the extender. That way my theater will have the good sound. :) In the den it's pretty much TV so Dolby Digital 5.1 will work.

 

- The new 360 is rather quiet. I had one in my den for a while and it was quieter than my TiVo from what I remember. I'm real picky about noise and rejected the last HTPC I tried because it was too noisy. This current one is quieter than the TiVo it would be replacing and the TiVo has the quieter version of the several fans they use.

 

- HDHomeRun will lock an individual tuner when it's in use. As an example if I am recording something via WMC I can't access the tuner it's using for the recording. I can however access the other(s) via my Mac.

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post #13 of 46
8/1/12 at 10:14am
Quote:
You haven't built a PC lately, it's routine to see Intel boxes use less than 40w at idle.
What PS, what chipset, and how about AMD?
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post #14 of 46
8/1/12 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

What PS, what chipset, and how about AMD?

 

Here's the specs for one model higher (has WIFI, faster processor, etc) than the HTPC I'm playing with... I'm presuming mine uses a little less.

 

 

Juice box
  Average watts per hour
Off (60 percent) 0.92
Sleep (10 percent) 2.24
Idle (25 percent) 40.97
Load (5 percent) 81.13
Raw kWh 166.56
EnergyStar compliant Yes
Annual energy cost $18.90

 

End result if you can use the sleep mode to any extent it will use considerably less than your typical DVR. My current understanding...

 

Windows 7 will automatically resume from sleep to record and go back to sleep after the recording is complete without the use of any third party software.  All you have to do is schedule the recordings and Windows will take care of the rest.


Edited by Charles R - 8/1/12 at 12:13pm
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post #15 of 46
8/1/12 at 10:46am
Ok, but, what PS, what chipset, and how about AMD?
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post #16 of 46
8/1/12 at 10:49am
Here ya go.

Adding a TB or so hard drive wouldn't add more than 7-8 watts, so let's say 20-25 at idle. There are plenty of other low power builds out there in the HTPC forum. Yes, it doesn't have tuners so let's say another 5-6 watts for an HD Homerun Prime on the network (that's what they draw, IIRC, I have one).
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post #17 of 46
8/1/12 at 11:44am
Thread Starter 
Guys, let's keep this thread on topic please. Power consumption is off topic. That can be debated elsewhere.



Does anyone have any Xbox 360 extender use experiences? I'm still curious to understand how 2 extenders lock up the channel correctly. I just do not want to be in a situation where someone is watching something in one room via an extender and then the other person in the other room changes a channel and the other person sees it happen. I really want to know about how recording and viewing channels using one single Homerun HD Prime integrates between two extenders.
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post #18 of 46
8/1/12 at 12:04pm
Power consumption for the thread title, "Tivo or HTPC?", is definitely not off-topic.

I use the Xboxes as extenders, WMC manages which ones are mapped to which extender. Each extender gets it's own user account and session in the server, so they are independent for channel watching purposes and WMC manages the tuner allocations. All recordings happen on the WMC PC, the Xbox just gives you an RDP-like view into WMC running there for scheduling and watching TV.
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post #19 of 46
8/1/12 at 7:43pm
Thread Starter 
I also have a Mac mini I use to run xbmc. Is there any way I can make that an extender or somehow run the he homerun tuners? Then I would only have to buy the HD homerun prime. Could I somehow use my media server (in the office), and remote Mac mini and Xbox 360 together to act as 2 DVR units?
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post #20 of 46
8/2/12 at 4:30am
Quote:
Power consumption for the thread title, "Tivo or HTPC?", is definitely not off-topic.
Thank you.
It's a major part of the argument concerning the title of the thread. Just because you don't care about what everyone should care about, doesn't mean others think the same way. An electronic debive, sitting there, not doing anything, should not have to draw as much power as when it is operating. Period. PC's or dedicated DVR's.
Quote:
powerfull enough to run XBMC with MPC-HC external player with LAV filters + MadVR
Of course, none of that means diddle squat to me. To many unheard of acronyms. But, thanks for the link, I will look into it.
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post #21 of 46
8/2/12 at 10:30am
There is no need to use a tower computer to record TV shows. A laptop can do the same job and uses less energy. That should put an end to the "which device uses more electricity" argument. I have a HD Homerun hooked up to a Lenovo X120e netbook for recording OTA shows. Been doing this for a few months now and couldn't be happier. There is also zero maintenance. The trick is to turn off Windows Update.
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post #22 of 46
8/2/12 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidt1 View Post

The trick is to turn off Windows Update.
That's a useful practice for any Windows computer, not just HTPCs.
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post #23 of 46
8/2/12 at 2:16pm
Thread Starter 
To clarify:

My current setup:
1. Always-on file server (Windows 7 Pro, QuadCore AMD Athlon II X4 630, 2800 MHz, 6GB RAM, 8 SATA HDDs with space for 2 more) connected over ethernet/switch to Mac mini running XBMC in the family room and Popcorn Hour in the master bedroom.
2. Xbox 360 in the family room. Unused, except for the occasional Beatles Rock Band session.
3. TiVo in the family room.
4. TiVo in the master bedroom.

3 and 4 together cost me $1000.

I am thinking about the $1000 cost and trying to come up with solutions to better utilize that dollar amount.

Solution 1:
Return #3 and #4 and buy an HD Homerun Prime. $200
Buy **additional** Xbox 360 Slim. $200
Buy 3TB hard drive to add to existing file server. $150
Total - $450

Solution 2:
Somehow utilize my existing infrastructure so that i would only have to buy the HD Homerun Prime $200, thus saving a boatload of money.

Solution 3:
Anyone?

Thanks again.
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post #24 of 46
8/3/12 at 6:12am
#1 is your best bet if you want to save money and have TV where you want it, but you may find the Tivos to be superior DVRs (I do).
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post #25 of 46
8/3/12 at 7:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

#1 is your best bet if you want to save money and have TV where you want it, but you may find the Tivos to be superior DVRs (I do).

So just to be clear, you use Xbox 360s as extenders, but you find the TiVo boxes to be superior?
Edited by acribb - 8/3/12 at 9:06am
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post #26 of 46
8/3/12 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
So just to be clear, you use Xbox 360s as extenders, but you find the TiVo boxes to be superior?
It is very hard to beat TiVo's simplicity and set-it-and-forget-it reliability. If you want invisible equipment that just works so you can spend your time watching instead of configuring and maintaining, just stick with the TiVo. It is worth the extra money. I have both TiVo and a small media-PC with HD Homerun that I use for "overflow" recording. Although the media-PC has proven itself to be generally reliable in it's recording, I trust the TiVo far more than I trust the media-PC. Using either TiVo or media-PC I can transfer recordings to my NAS units and stream them all over my house using WDTV Live players.
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post #27 of 46
8/3/12 at 9:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

It is very hard to beat TiVo's simplicity and set-it-and-forget-it reliability. If you want invisible equipment that just works so you can spend your time watching instead of configuring and maintaining, just stick with the TiVo. It is worth the extra money. I have both TiVo and a small media-PC with HD Homerun that I use for "overflow" recording. Although the media-PC has proven itself to be generally reliable in it's recording, I trust the TiVo far more than I trust the media-PC. Using either TiVo or media-PC I can transfer recordings to my NAS units and stream them all over my house using WDTV Live players.

Ok. I originally thought that WMC was a superior DVR experience to TiVo(and cheaper).

If WMC is inferior to TiVo, then I will stick with the TiVo and its higher price point.

I just cancelled my HD Homerun Prime order from Amazon!
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post #28 of 46
8/3/12 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post


Ok. I originally thought that WMC was a superior DVR experience to TiVo(and cheaper).

 

After using TiVo for a dozen years I wouldn't (by default) call TiVo a superior DVR. Simpler to install without doubt and I give the (peanut) remote the advantage over any WMC remote. Beyond that it becomes more what you are looking for versus one being superior. After a week of using WMC about the only thing I miss is how easy it is to switch back and forth between live programs (pausing both). Although WMC has a ton of features that more than make up for it and at this point in time regardless of price I'd pick WMC.

 

I do think you have to turn off your mind as to WMC being a computer. If you treat it strictly as a DVR I find it just as simple to use. I hit the Start button on my remote and live TV is there... it wakes itself up. One button to recordings, schedule and whatnot.. even better conflict resolution. Finally, one button on the remote and WMC (the PC) goes to sleep. :)

 

I still have my TiVo active and after using TiVo for well over a decade I think it says something when I haven't had one urge to use it (over WMC) during the week. This from someone would doesn't endorse change... :) 


Edited by Charles R - 8/3/12 at 9:46am
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post #29 of 46
8/3/12 at 9:43am
Up to about a few months about I was scared of the term "HTPC" and trembled in fear at the thought configuring and maintaining a HTPC, because I hear too many misinformation. Now, after using a HD Homerun hooked up to a laptop for a few months, I know better. Other than the 10 minutes it took for the initial setup, there has been ZERO time spent configuring and maintaining my HT laptop setup. Once every two weeks or so WMC reminds me I need to download the latest guide. That's it.
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post #30 of 46
8/3/12 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post

So just to be clear, you use Xbox 360s as extenders, but you find the TiVo boxes to be superior?
Correct, that's the opinion in my house (including the wife's) having extensively used both. It's not that WMC is bad, it's just not as easy to use and doesn't work as seamlessly as a couple of Tivos for everyday DVR use. Plus it is lacking in advanced wishlist features that make scheduling all my sports a set-and-forget operation.

Where WMC has the advantage is with the extenders plus all the add-ons like comskip, nicer UI with extensions like Media Browser, unlimited storage, etc. Some of this is offset by the great tools out there for Tivos like pyTivo, kmttg, and streambaby. WMC will be cheaper to run especially if you get multiple extenders.
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