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Upgrade from SVS Pb12-plus/2 to Submersive HP or Captivator S2

Poll Results: Which Subwoofer will work in my room

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 36% (19)
    Submersive HP
  • 50% (26)
    Captivator S2
  • 1% (1)
    Captivator S
  • 7% (4)
    SVS PB13 Ultra
  • 3% (2)
    JL Audio F113
52 Total Votes  
post #1 of 57
Thread Starter 
I’ve owned SVS Pb12-plus/2 (SVS PB12+ then) since it was introduced and have been happy with it for the past 7 to 8 years IIRC.

I was casually browsing the forums and stumbled upon the Archaea sub comparsion thread. That got me interested in reading more about Submersive HP and Captivator S.
After reading the article I got the upgrade bug.
I was leaning more towards Submersive HP but then I read about Captivator S2.

That where I’m here for your advice. Now I’m torn apart between Submersive HP and S2. For $500 more i get S2 with dual drivers.
I’ve a dedicated basement HT room 16L x 12.5W x 8H. I have GIK acoustic treatments with 4 corner bass traps and 1 monster bass trap in the rear. I have SVS AS-EQ1 to equalize the sub.
My listening preference is 90% HT and 10% music. Given my prefrence i would think Captivator will work better but i might be wrong because of my room size.
Would S2 be an overkill for my room?
I'm looking for a single subwoofer setup at this time. Please no DIY suggestions as i don't have time and tools for it.
Looking forward for a great advice.
Thanks in advance
Edited by malikarshad - 7/31/12 at 8:13pm
post #2 of 57
Thread Starter 
So far only 4 votes. Captivator S2 is being favored...
Waiting for more votes
post #3 of 57
If it were me and I wanted a single subwoofer I would buy the S2. It has roughly the output of 2 co-located Submersives and I absolutely love the look of it. IMO there is no such think as too much sub. I have dual Submersives and they are awesome, and I love them, and 99% of the time I do not reach their limits but I don't feel like I have too much sub.
post #4 of 57
Just re-read your room dimensions, wow an S2 in that room is total overkill.... eek.gif

Screw it, I would still get the S2 if you are at all a bass head and you can only buy 1 sub. In a room that size you may never, ever, use the headroom that a S2 would give you over a Submersive, but if you don't you will always wonder.
post #5 of 57
Thread Starter 
i can do either 2 small subs or one large sub. since i already have a dual driver sub i guess S2 would work better in my room.
good advices.
post #6 of 57
Bit of an uncanny co-incidence, I'm going through exactly the same process!

I sold my SVS PB12+ a few months back, and am now looking at either the submersive or Cap S2.

FYI - the submersive is a twin driver sub as well. You can get them in a dual opposed configuration (which is standard), or, for an additional charge, have the drivers facing forward (known as F2).

I was pretty much set on going with the Cap S2 .

However, after seeing how gorgeous the submersive F2 looks (refer link below), I'm not so sure anymore.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/SubMersive-F2-The-same-but-different...-5509423?trail=60

I'm now just going to wait for any in depth reviews on the Cap S2, or results of a shootout, to help sway my decision one way or another.
post #7 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superaaaaa View Post

However, after seeing how gorgeous the submersive F2 looks (refer link below), I'm not so sure anymore.
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/SubMersive-F2-The-same-but-different...-5509423?trail=60
I'm now just going to wait for any in depth reviews on the Cap S2, or results of a shootout, to help sway my decision one way or another.
I prefer performance over looks. I'll choose which performs better for my preference of 90% HT & 10% music.
But the lack of reviews of Cap S2 is holding me back.
I hope some owner of S2 can chime in and shed some light on the matter. Maybe they are so busy enjoying their system they don't have time for a review.smile.gif
post #8 of 57
I owned the PB2plus. Dual plus driver 900 watt ported sub. It was about as powerful as my sealed eD 18 sub. The Cap driver is more powerful than the eD. My vote is the S2, you get the most dispalcement from the smallest package.
post #9 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by malikarshad View Post

I prefer performance over looks. I'll choose which performs better for my preference of 90% HT & 10% music.
But the lack of reviews of Cap S2 is holding me back.
I hope some owner of S2 can chime in and shed some light on the matter. Maybe they are so busy enjoying their system they don't have time for a review.smile.gif

Don't get me wrong, I would never compromise sound quality over looks.

But, based on what I recall from the shootouts, there seems to be very little separating JTR and Seaton subs.

The general consensus seems to be you cant go wrong with either brand.

Having said that, it would be great to see the Cap S2 included in a shootout.
post #10 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superaaaaa View Post

Don't get me wrong, I would never compromise sound quality over looks.
But, based on what I recall from the shootouts, there seems to be very little separating JTR and Seaton subs.
The general consensus seems to be you cant go wrong with either brand.
Having said that, it would be great to see the Cap S2 included in a shootout.
No offense I was reiterating my preference for looks vs quality.smile.gif
I'm right on the fence to pull the trigger for S2 but the lack of reviews is holding me back.
Is some S2 owners out there listening.....
post #11 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

If it were me and I wanted a single subwoofer I would buy the S2. It has roughly the output of 2 co-located Submersives and I absolutely love the look of it. IMO there is no such think as too much sub. I have dual Submersives and they are awesome, and I love them, and 99% of the time I do not reach their limits but I don't feel like I have too much sub.

Carp is correct and the S2 would be more equivalent performance to dual submersives than a single. I believe the S2 can be ordered in different finishes as well. You can contact them for pricing options on finish. You are comparing 2400 watts and two 15's to 4000 watts and two 18's with more xmax. It seems to have great value as it is only $700 more than the Cap S and you get double the cabinet volume, 1800 watts more RMS, and another long throw 18" driver. The S2 has only been available for a few months where as the submersive has been available for years. I don't think there are too many S2's in the wild yet.

Recently we got to hear a couple in a large space and they eased their way through music and movies and were excellent performers.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/871474/ia-meet/3300

That being said I am going to throw out another option. Small rooms can be very difficult for bass because of all of the close boundaries of the room creating peaks and nulls in the frequency response giving a hard to work with transfer function. I know after some experience myself I would never be happy with a single subwoofer in most rooms. At the intro. price you could get four of the power sound audio XS15. This would give you 4 point sources to help the room interaction such as in the Harman White Paper Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations. You would have 4 15" with 2 inch peak to peak excursion capabilities and 2000 watt RMS and with your rooms boundary gain and pressure vessel gain should have great output down low and smoother transfer function utilizing multiple subwoofers. You have some great options available at this time!

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xs15
Edited by Luke Kamp - 8/1/12 at 12:06pm
post #12 of 57
The XV-30 looks like a more powerful version of the PB12/plus/2.
post #13 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

That being said I am going to throw out another option. Small rooms can be very difficult for bass because of all of the close boundaries of the room creating peaks and nulls in the frequency response giving a hard to work with transfer function. I know after some experience myself I would never be happy with a single subwoofer in most rooms. At the intro. price you could get four of the power sound audio XS15. This would give you 4 point sources to help the room interaction such as in the Harman White Paper Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations. You would have 4 15" with 2 inch peak to peak excursion capabilities and 2000 watt RMS and with your rooms boundary gain and pressure vessel gain should have great output down low and smoother transfer function utilizing multiple subwoofers. You have some great options available at this time!
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xs15
4x XS15 looks tempting but placing 4 subs in a small room would be a challenge. But thanks for you suggestion as it got me thinking about dual sub setup.
How about Dual Submersive HP vs Cap S2?
post #14 of 57
For some reason I though you wanted just one sub, that's why I recommended the Cap 2. If you go 2 subs then yeah Submersives or regular cap sealed subs would be the way to go.
post #15 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

For some reason I though you wanted just one sub, that's why I recommended the Cap 2. If you go 2 subs then yeah Submersives or regular cap sealed subs would be the way to go.
Initially I thought one large sub would be enough for my small room but after getting suggestion for multi sub setup i want to give it a try.
post #16 of 57
My room is 17 wide, 23 deep, and a little less that 8 feet high and dual Submersives are incredibly impressive in here, in a room your size much more so I would think. If you listen to music at all you will love these subs, best I've heard for music IMO.
post #17 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by malikarshad View Post

No offense I was reiterating my preference for looks vs quality.smile.gif
I'm right on the fence to pull the trigger for S2 but the lack of reviews is holding me back.
Is some S2 owners out there listening.....

Sorry mate, didnt mean to come across as though I took any offense.

After reading this thread, I'm slowly swaying back towards the Cap S2.

If you do end up getting it, make sure you write a detailed review to help me make my decision tongue.gif
post #18 of 57
DSP on that XS15 isn't quite the same as these other options, so unless you're bringing your own with measurement gear the SubM and CapS will have much greater low end out of the box, no matter how many XS15's you throw into your setup. Even then, there's no telling what kind of filtering you can't defeat on the XS15 and EQing an already EQ'd sealed sub isn't exactly ideal. With these listed in specs, "Soft limiting protection & Frequency dependent compressors" you've already got things in place that you can't change.

-6dB point

SubM HP: 15Hz or 19Hz (selectable)
CapS: 15Hz
XS15: 26Hz

The CapS has over double the displacement of the SubM HP for a little more money. If bang/buck wins over aesthetics, it should be a no-brainer.
Edited by Aknot5 - 8/2/12 at 6:17am
post #19 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

DSP on that XS15 isn't quite the same as these other options, so unless you're bringing your own with measurement gear the SubM and CapS will have much greater low end out of the box, no matter how many XS15's you throw into your setup. Even then, there's no telling what kind of filtering you can't defeat on the XS15 and EQing an already EQ'd sealed sub isn't exactly ideal. With these listed in specs, "Soft limiting protection & Frequency dependent compressors" you've already got things in place that you can't change.
-6dB point
SubM HP: 15Hz or 19Hz (selectable)
CapS: 15Hz
XS15: 26Hz.

In this small of a space (16x12x8) there is assuredly going to be ample room gain(PVG) likely starting in the 30-35hz area. I would be very surprised if the XS15 wasn't relatively flat down to the 12-15hz range in this environment. The filtering in place on the Power X line is fairly minimalistic by industry standards. I agree though a single XS15 really isn't going to compete with those other options.

Tom Vodhanel
Power Sound Audio
post #20 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

In this small of a space (16x12x8) there is assuredly going to be ample room gain(PVG) likely starting in the 30-35hz area. I would be very surprised if the XS15 wasn't relatively flat down to the 12-15hz range in this environment. The filtering in place on the Power X line is fairly minimalistic by industry standards. I agree though a single XS15 really isn't going to compete with those other options.
Tom Vodhanel
Power Sound Audio

Thanks Tom. Sure enough, I must have missed the room dimensions. It certainly wouldn't hurt the OP to get a meter out and get some LP readings of his current sub vs a close mic just to give him a good idea of what he's working with.

I agree from the FR and sweeps shown the low end filtering seems to be minimal compared to most. For example, the obscene filtering of Epik's or eD's sealed subs.

Do you have plans for a sealed line targeted at the larger rooms like the other subs mentioned do?
post #21 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

Thanks Tom. Sure enough, I must have missed the room dimensions. It certainly wouldn't hurt the OP to get a meter out and get some LP readings of his current sub vs a close mic just to give him a good idea of what he's working with.
I agree from the FR and sweeps shown the low end filtering seems to be minimal compared to most. For example, the obscene filtering of Epik's or eD's sealed subs.
Do you have plans for a sealed line targeted at the larger rooms like the other subs mentioned do?

Yeah, it is called buying more of them. How about a dual opposed version that can stack on one another, like Bosso's? I would really like the dual opposed in that old SVS cylinder and rather than ports on the top shrink the height and add another woofer with feet and then just add more if needed. The numbers show it to be down 3 dBs to the empire with dual 15's so a dual opposed version would be stronger than the empire but leave the natural sealed rolloff. Bosso makes this sub already but with awesome looks, lots of power, and a frequency response shaper.
post #22 of 57
Buying more of them won't get you the 15Hz -6B point like the DSP setting on the SubM HP and CapS. You could have 50 of them and it won't change that fact. Signal shaping is very important to the low end. It's not like you have a passive sub and untouched signal you can do your own thing with, that would be ideal and then you could do what you want.

But for the guys that need extension down to the teens where their room gain kicks in Seaton and JTR's subs are doing that out of the box.

The Empire has crap for output under 20Hz though since it's filtered, whereas Tom's sealed 15 seems to have a shallower roll-off that would give you something decent in a room like the OPs.

I agree- I suggested in the PSA thread that dual 15's sealed with more power (and extended DSP) around that $1200 price point the vented unit is at would be a real killer product.
post #23 of 57
I agree that the OP should graph his rooms transfer function to get a better picture. However his longest room dimension is 16 ft and he could have pressure vessel gain starting around 35hz as Tom stated. Depending on the integrity of his boundaries could pick up to 12db/octave and is more commonly between 6-10db/octave gain. The xs-15 appears to to be -8/-9db at 20hz from 40hz and ~-19db at 10hz. He could also add a bit of boost so I think he would be just fine.

OP if you are getting a single and done I would get the S2. If you are getting two subs I would get dual SubmHP's.
post #24 of 57
Thread Starter 
Here is the sub measurement done with AS-EQ1. AS EQ-1 Sub Mesurement 116k .pdf file

Here are REW measurements that i took a while ago. It was taken with a professionally calibrated ECM8000 mic.



Edited by malikarshad - 8/3/12 at 7:42pm
post #25 of 57
This should be good enough to use to gather room gain profile:

clip_image002_014.gif
post #26 of 57
Thread Starter 
I've opened up my choice to dual sub setup since that will give more uniform coverage in case of bass variation across several sitting location. BTW I have only one row of 3 seats so i don't expect huge variations but without measurements it cannot confirm.
The choice now had boiled down to these
  • Captivator S2
  • Submersive XL (if its available)
  • Dual Captivator S
  • Dual Submersive HP
I plan to take more measurements at different seat locations to check the bass variation.I'll go for duals if it varies a lot otherwise I'll go with Cap S2 or Sub XL pursuant to its availability
I placed an order for OmniMic V2 and waiting for it to arrive next week.
I will post my measurements shortly
post #27 of 57
Thread Starter 
Cap S2 it is then!!!smile.gif
It was a tough tie between Dual Sub HP and Cap S2. Listening preference and economics were the driving factor. S2 is cheaper and more compact than Dual HP.
If Sub XL was available it would have changed the whole game plan. Will see how it stands up against S2 when its out.

Placed an order for S2. Now the wait....
post #28 of 57
Congrats mal, I'm sure you'll get great results. cool.gif
post #29 of 57
Be sure to post your impressions rolleyes.gif

Congratulations on the purchase!
post #30 of 57
Good choice on the S2. I agree that there should be more feedback from the owners to promote the AWESOMENESS of this sub. I have been enjoying my sub whenever possible.
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