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Are there any Panny St50 returners out there who went Sammy 6500?

post #1 of 98
7/31/12 at 12:24pm
Thread Starter 
If so why? and what do you think?

thanx
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post #2 of 98
7/31/12 at 2:55pm
Well I think we all know it's the image retention problems that plague this years models.
A Tv is to be watched and enjoyed like any other expensive home apliance.
If you have to run slides and baby sit the bloody thing because of IR day and night
then it's not doing what the unsuspecting consumer wants.
A warning lable would help but no, lets just sweep the IR issue under the carpet.
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post #3 of 98
7/31/12 at 5:31pm
Thread Starter 
HOW BAD IS THE IR FOLKS?

I'm seeing this now all over ????
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post #4 of 98
7/31/12 at 5:32pm
Thread Starter 
Is Panasonic denying this?
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post #5 of 98
7/31/12 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicFlair View Post

Is Panasonic denying this?
Had a Panasonic rep explain to me that 2000hrs, yes that is correct "2000hrs" of break in are needed to lessen or eliminate IR or burn-in issues on the display. I asked don't you mean 200hrs of break-in? Nope 2000hrs I explained that if this is a persistent issues with this years display it would put it way out of our 30-90 day return. It was then explained that IR/burn-in aren't covered under any manufacturer warranty.
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post #6 of 98
7/31/12 at 6:10pm
I had an ST50, didn't really notice IR unless I examined it closely. Didn't bother me at all. Returned it due to flicker in 50hz and 24p.
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post #7 of 98
7/31/12 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwbourne View Post

I had an ST50, didn't really notice IR unless I examined it closely. Didn't bother me at all. Returned it due to flicker in 50hz and 24p.

European model? Have read a number of posts that Pans have had problems with Europe's 50hz standard - but thought one of the linked reviews (probably on a British site) mentioned that the 2012s had improved in that area - ??
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post #8 of 98
7/31/12 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicFlair View Post

HOW BAD IS THE IR FOLKS?
I'm seeing this now all over ????

Our 60ST50 was prone to Quick Onset / Medium- to Long-Duration IR up until ABOUT 400 hours of usage. We noted the problem at around the 250 hour mark, but that might have simply been because that is when we stopped being Extra Careful with the set.

Since passing the 400 hour mark (and, again, that is an Approximate number, not some "magical" mark!), the set has become noticeably LESS susceptible to Quick Onset IR, and the retention time has shortened considerably. (Brief IR is pretty much a given on all of the plasma sets we've had experience with - but such "Short Duration IR" is hardly a problem worth worrying about.)
Am still taking reasonable precautions, but not Extraordinary ones, and - at least as of now - do not consider IR to be a problem with this particular panel - it seems to be getting closer and closer to our two older Pan plasmas in this area as the hours of usage add up.

To be fair, we do NOT game on it....
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post #9 of 98
7/31/12 at 9:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post

European model? Have read a number of posts that Pans have had problems with Europe's 50hz standard - but thought one of the linked reviews (probably on a British site) mentioned that the 2012s had improved in that area - ??

I think that is a different issue. Mine was an Australian model but I'm 99% sure this is a global problem. Both 50hz and 24p flickered pretty obviously. Apparently Australian models run 24p at 96hz so I would guess the VT50 would be the same. Some people are less sensitive than others though so you'll have to see for yourself whether you can detect it or not.
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post #10 of 98
8/2/12 at 3:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwbourne View Post

I think that is a different issue. Mine was an Australian model but I'm 99% sure this is a global problem. Both 50hz and 24p flickered pretty obviously. Apparently Australian models run 24p at 96hz so I would guess the VT50 would be the same. Some people are less sensitive than others though so you'll have to see for yourself whether you can detect it or not.

I'm pretty sure that european model works 24p@96 Hz, not 48Hz. Isn't this stupid that there are a lot of differently speced tvs over different countries? America, Europe, GB, Australia etc. Some have more options in menu then others, how weird is that. They should do just one version with more option to choose from and choose what you like.
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post #11 of 98
8/2/12 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post

Had a Panasonic rep explain to me that 2000hrs, yes that is correct "2000hrs" of break in are needed to lessen or eliminate IR or burn-in issues on the display. I asked don't you mean 200hrs of break-in? Nope 2000hrs I explained that if this is a persistent issues with this years display it would put it way out of our 30-90 day return.....

That rep is not knowledgeable about his product. I've picked the brains of like three different Panasonic reps at stores over the years and all of them were sorely lacking in technical knowledge not just about their TVs, but Plasma technology in general. They're not qualified to discuss tech, just marketing.

FWIW, i have not been getting any IR on my GT50 over the past month of ownership despite watching mostly news channels and Speed channel, same as on my other Plasmas.
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post #12 of 98
8/2/12 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

That rep is not knowledgeable about his product. I've picked the brains of like three different Panasonic reps at stores over the years and all of them were sorely lacking in technical knowledge not just about their TVs, but Plasma technology in general. They're not qualified to discuss tech, just marketing.
FWIW, i have not been getting any IR on my GT50 over the past month of ownership despite watching mostly news channels and Speed channel, same as on my other Plasmas.

I will agee with Randy on this and take the word of ISF calibrators as to how many hours of break in is needed.
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post #13 of 98
8/2/12 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by majki84 View Post

I'm pretty sure that european model works 24p@96 Hz, not 48Hz. Isn't this stupid that there are a lot of differently speced tvs over different countries? America, Europe, GB, Australia etc. Some have more options in menu then others, how weird is that. They should do just one version with more option to choose from and choose what you like.

I have read the same thing, you're right it is frustrating, however in terms of 24p playback it makes little difference as 96hz still flickers. It's not obvious, but once started noticing it in scenes with a lot of grey I couldn't stop seeing it. 60hz is fine though.
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post #14 of 98
8/2/12 at 1:02pm
I've had two 60ST50's and neither of them had IR issues.

Was considering the E6500 but obviously went with the ST50 because of the superior PQ. Very happy with my choice.
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post #15 of 98
8/2/12 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I will agee with Randy on this and take the word of ISF calibrators as to how many hours of break in is needed.


Anyone selling an expensive service like calibrating plasmas is going to claim
a low number because they want that new plasma owner ASAP.
Given the vast amount of heat generated by a new plasma there is no practical way those prospers
can completey age and reach their normal room temperature in 100 to 200 hours.
500 to 1000 hours is more realistic.
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post #16 of 98
8/2/12 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Anyone selling an expensive service like calibrating plasmas is going to claim
a low number because they want that new plasma owner ASAP.
Given the vast amount of heat generated by a new plasma there is no practical way those prospers
can completey age and reach their normal room temperature in 100 to 200 hours.
500 to 1000 hours is more realistic.

That is a very broad statement. I'll also bet that you have absolutely NO evidence to prove it true. rolleyes.gif
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post #17 of 98
8/2/12 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by majki84 View Post

I'm pretty sure that european model works 24p@96 Hz, not 48Hz. Isn't this stupid that there are a lot of differently speced tvs over different countries? America, Europe, GB, Australia etc. Some have more options in menu then others, how weird is that. They should do just one version with more option to choose from and choose what you like.

whats the need for 96hz, or eveh 48hz for that matter - its a bit weird

I have a PF11 Panasonic, and it outputs 24hz at 24hz - and I can't spot any flicker at all, and I used to be very sensitive to it on computer monitors

interestingly on that model there was a difference too, the American version output 24hz at 48hz

just wondered what the advantage of doubling, or quadrupling the frames is ?
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post #18 of 98
8/2/12 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Anyone selling an expensive service like calibrating plasmas is going to claim
a low number because they want that new plasma owner ASAP.
Given the vast amount of heat generated by a new plasma there is no practical way those prospers
can completey age and reach their normal room temperature in 100 to 200 hours.
500 to 1000 hours is more realistic.

No, this is unrelated to IR, and your statement about temperature suggests you don't really understand what's happening (as I'm sure most people wouldn't wink.gif). Sounds like you're saying the TV run The time required to age the phosphors to a point where IR becomes substantially reduced will probably depend on the chemical composition of the phosphors and design of the panel, among other things I'm sure. I don't think there is any hard evidence of exactly how much time is required, and that's probably because there's some variability to it (plus the fact that it would be very difficult to collect such data from a large sample set considering all of the variables involved).

Calibrators recommend a "break in" for the benefit of their customers. I believe this break in period is typically 100-200 hours because during this time the phosphors are still "settling in", meaning there is a lot of drift in their color reproduction. There is no point in paying for a calibration until after this time has passed. A "broken in" set will hold calibration quite nicely for at least 300 hours (even 500 isn't too bad) based on data I've collected with a colorimeter on my D7000. I'm up to 2000 hours now and have only calibrated a few times.
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post #19 of 98
8/2/12 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

No, this is unrelated to IR, and your statement about temperature suggests you don't really understand what's happening (as I'm sure most people wouldn't wink.gif). Sounds like you're saying the TV run The time required to age the phosphors to a point where IR becomes substantially reduced will probably depend on the chemical composition of the phosphors and design of the panel, among other things I'm sure. I don't think there is any hard evidence of exactly how much time is required, and that's probably because there's some variability to it (plus the fact that it would be very difficult to collect such data from a large sample set considering all of the variables involved).

Calibrators recommend a "break in" for the benefit of their customers. I believe this break in period is typically 100-200 hours because during this time the phosphors are still "settling in", meaning there is a lot of drift in their color reproduction. There is no point in paying for a calibration until after this time has passed. A "broken in" set will hold calibration quite nicely for at least 300 hours (even 500 isn't too bad) based on data I've collected with a colorimeter on my D7000. I'm up to 2000 hours now and have only calibrated a few times.

I never said anything about IR and IR has nothing to do with my post.
go back, re-read and try again.


"Calibrators recommend a "break in" for the benefit of their customers"

Yea right and I have bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, give me a fuggin break.
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post #20 of 98
8/2/12 at 2:58pm
AvidHiker is correct and that all Plasmas need to be aged at least 100-150 hours before it gets calibrated because the phosphors change the most during this time. If you calibrate any plasma out of the box, it will drift out of accuracy quickly. This has been shown year after year with all models with measuring equipment (colorimeters or spectroradiometers).
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post #21 of 98
8/2/12 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

whats the need for 96hz, or eveh 48hz for that matter - its a bit weird
I have a PF11 Panasonic, and it outputs 24hz at 24hz - and I can't spot any flicker at all, and I used to be very sensitive to it on computer monitors
interestingly on that model there was a difference too, the American version output 24hz at 48hz
just wondered what the advantage of doubling, or quadrupling the frames is ?

Are you sure it really displays at 24hz? The ST50 I had didn't actually report the refresh rate, it just said "24p". There are other factors at play aside from the refresh rate which I don't fully understand, but I would guess that the panel driving scheme and the rate at which the phosphors decay make a difference. For whatever reason, the Panasonic needs a higher refresh rate to reduce flicker in it's 24p playback mode.
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post #22 of 98
8/2/12 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

"Calibrators recommend a "break in" for the benefit of their customers"

Yea right and I have bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, give me a fuggin break.

I'm a DYIer and I've had nothing but support from the professional calibrators here. You are implying that ALL calibrators are unethical. I personally find that offensive. Your experience with dealing with professional calibrators may be different but these guys have helped me to learn a good deal about the in's and out's of calibrating and I'm actually taking money out of their pocket as I would have a professional calibrate my panel if I didn't calibrate it myself.
D-Nice comes in here (or elsewhere) and posts his settings for anyone to use. I'm sure several of the calibrators don't like that but he is willing to help this community. Several other calibrators post here offering their professional experience to this community. That doesn't strike me as unethical. Your last two posts do.
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post #23 of 98
8/2/12 at 10:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmwilker View Post

I'm a DYIer and I've had nothing but support from the professional calibrators here. You are implying that ALL calibrators are unethical. I personally find that offensive. Your experience with dealing with professional calibrators may be different but these guys have helped me to learn a good deal about the in's and out's of calibrating and I'm actually taking money out of their pocket as I would have a professional calibrate my panel if I didn't calibrate it myself.
D-Nice comes in here (or elsewhere) and posts his settings for anyone to use. I'm sure several of the calibrators don't like that but he is willing to help this community. Several other calibrators post here offering their professional experience to this community. That doesn't strike me as unethical. Your last two posts do.

Well said.

Speaking of D-Nice he has offered a lot of info and time on this forum and got paid 0 except for the ones that paid for his services so yes again I would take his knowledge with the highest regard.
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post #24 of 98
8/3/12 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

I never said anything about IR and IR has nothing to do with my post.
go back, re-read and try again..

Nope, I'm afraid you're the one who needs to read the earlier posts to which you were responding. Originally, break in was being discussed as it relates to IR (which some say takes a few hundred, others say takes 1000 hours or more - of course, this also depends on how abusive you are with static images). Then there was a post which confused the issue, which is probably what led you astray. Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that your comments about break in and temperature demonstrate an ignorance of the subject. Further, this has absolutely nothing to do with a calibrator's recommended break in period.

Here's how the subject of break in was introduced:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post

Had a Panasonic rep explain to me that 2000hrs, yes that is correct "2000hrs" of break in are needed to lessen or eliminate IR or burn-in issues on the display. I asked don't you mean 200hrs of break-in? Nope 2000hrs I explained that if this is a persistent issues with this years display it would put it way out of our 30-90 day return. It was then explained that IR/burn-in aren't covered under any manufacturer warranty.
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post #25 of 98
8/3/12 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwbourne View Post

Are you sure it really displays at 24hz? The ST50 I had didn't actually report the refresh rate, it just said "24p". There are other factors at play aside from the refresh rate which I don't fully understand, but I would guess that the panel driving scheme and the rate at which the phosphors decay make a difference. For whatever reason, the Panasonic needs a higher refresh rate to reduce flicker in it's 24p playback mode.

That sounds right, the plasma panels just need to be refreshed faster because they can't hold a single static frame for 1/24 of a second. When done right, 96 hz will look exactly the same as 24, but some people have always complained about flicker from these modes on Pannys. Others don't seem bothered.
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post #26 of 98
8/3/12 at 8:48am
I had my st50 since June and haven't noticed any IR. The picture has always looked great.
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post #27 of 98
8/3/12 at 10:30am
So a quick run down of all the responses shows only two to be considered even remotely on topic.
Can we please get back to the original question of any ST50 owners jumping to 6500s and why? There are many other threads on IR and calibration.
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post #28 of 98
8/3/12 at 11:38am
Apparently there not many who have, so would you prefer the thread just get buried in the forum? We're doing you a favor by bumping it.
Besides, the thread starter is the one who asked about IR and there is some credible evidence out there now which suggests that may be one of the only reasons to make the switch.
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post #29 of 98
8/3/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Anyone selling an expensive service like calibrating plasmas is going to claim
a low number because they want that new plasma owner ASAP.
Given the vast amount of heat generated by a new plasma there is no practical way those prospers
can completey age and reach their normal room temperature in 100 to 200 hours.
500 to 1000 hours is more realistic.

Sorry but you have no clue what you are talking about
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post #30 of 98
8/4/12 at 7:56pm
Returned my ST50 yesterday after the quick onset IR seemed to get worse as I aged the phosphors on the set> I noticed it began to get worse and more quickly after I passed the 200hr mark. I ordered the Samsung E7000 it will arrive Tuesday received a free sound-bar and sub-woofer with the set, not a bad deal.
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