Clarification on technological advancements in tweeters - Page 3

'Clack' noise probably indicates clipping in the electronics, the result of pushing them too hard trying to get a high frequency tone loud enough to hear.

My speaker's frequency response is listed as 55 Hz - 60 kHz. Now I don't think anyone is saying that there is any musical information that high or that anyone would hear anything that high. What it says is that they will handle 12 kHz with ease... as it is not anywhere near their capability limits.

The ribbon tweeters in those 2-way speakers are crossed over at 2.3 kHz. As they are bi-wire capable speakers, out of curiosity the other day I listened to the tweeters by themselves. It is very surprising how little musical sound there actually is even just above 2 kHz.
Edited by kiwi2 - 8/3/12 at 5:22pm

For comparative purposes, some might find this hearing test link interesting.

Found another.

I punched out at 14kHz. I had our 24yr old son come in and he ripped the headphone off at the 14kHz setting; my sound level. After turning the volume control down, he was good all the way up to where it ended at 18kHz.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/3/12 at 7:14pm

So why would it only make the noise with the higher frequency test tones when I never touched the volume control?


Max

Really? My Focus SE's are a 4-way design with crossovers at 120Hz, 2.8kHz and 8kHz. I can hear quite a bit coming from the 8kHz and up AMT tweeter, and quite a lot of content coming through the 2.8kHz - 8kHz ribbon mid-tweeter. Then again, I guess it might depend a great deal on what kind of music you listen to. Granted, it obviously isn't as much as what comes out of the 2 Rohacell mids that play from 120Hz to 2.8kHz, but I certainly wouldn't like the sound if the twweter and mid-tweeter were taken out. As I mentioned, cymbals sound dead with speakers that roll off above 12kHz and the higher notes on violins sound dull.


Max

Have you listened to the tweeters by themselves with the other drivers disconnected? I'm not just talking about holding your ear up near the tweeters while the whole speaker is playing. I found it quite surprising what this sounds like.

No, not with the Focus SE's. They are bi-ampable so I can remove the jumpers and just run wires to the top terminals, but that means the mids that run from 120Hz - 2.8kHz are also active. I tried covering the mids, but I guess everything is relative.

When I say there is a lot of content coming from the 2.8kHz - 8kHz tweeter and the 8kHz+ tweeter, I don't mean that there is so much there that I could listen to just the tweeters without any of the other drivers playing. What I mean is that there is more than enough audible content coming from them that I couldn't imagine playing music without them. I can cover just the 8kHz+ tweeter and hear a marked difference in the sound.


Max

Thanks, appreciate the info.

Whoa, cool! 35 years old, lifelong music lover but I've generally avoided loud noises. Frankly, I've always suspected that my hearing was a little bit better than that of most people I've known. Per this test, I can hear above 18kHz but my hearing starts becoming strong and clear at 18kHz.

I never realized that the tones between 18kHz and 12kHz are so weird-sounding, especially coming from my speakers--there's a palpable sensation that's not totally unlike bass pressurization, and these are noises that I want to think mostly happen outdoors in the summer, or in nature shows about insects. Freaky! Thanks!

Sorry, but I just couldn't let this slide.

From a practical point of view, as much as I hate to admit it, commysyman is making the right point: people in this forum are living in a fantasy world about what they hear from tweeters. He just has the wrong numbers.

As you point out, from about 20, people lose their ability to hear higher frequencies, except when the sound is amplified well above any kind of normal listening volume. Failure to acknowledge that fact has led to endless spew in these forums. Everyone imagines they are better than average, one of those mythical grown ups who can hear 22khz. Just like everyone thinks they are a better than average driver.

I'm surprised you didn't call out the completely absurd comment from the guy who claims he can hear 26 khz.

Watch out with the random hearing tests. Two hazards: One, your equipment won't actually reproduce high frequencies. Or two, more dangerous, it will - and you turn it up way too loud in order to try to hear it. Set the volume with a more audible frequency, and leave it there.

there is no answer possible to that question.

I have in total 7 identical Focal speakers with the Beryllium tweeter in my homecinema since a couple of years, so I would rather say I know this tweeter you mentioned.

I also have in my other system 3 ribbon tweeters (magnetostatic), and another system with AMT (air motion transformer).


But I would never say, "it is the best". There are so many factors, defining the ability of a speaker, to reproduce the signal, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to say one system is better as the other.
Every technology has it pros and cons.


On the one hand there a the high end dome-tweeters out of beryllium or diamond. Theese materials have no internal resonances in the audible range, so in fact there are extremly few distortions in the sound. But they are not perfect at all. Higher amount of moving mass, imperfect directivity and very sensitive so they need a covering (which impacts the sound too).

On the second hand there are silk domes, wich can be extremly good to (like the Scan Speak Revelator, or some from ATC).

ribbon tweeters are mentioned earlier in this thread. They are good either, but not "the best" too. Because of some technical issues that limit theese systems (power handling for example).

Air Motion Transformers (AMT) are really goot either.

Not to forget about Ion-tweeters, where the sound is emitted from a morphing ion-plasma-ball.



For every type of speaker you find people who will bet for "it is the best".


After years of listening to many speakers (budget up to highest end) and building my own speakers, I say now: There is no "best". Every speaker is a compromise. It depends on what you need and what the conditions (room, acoustic, sound level, distance .... ) are.

If you're familiar with the equal loudness contours, then you would already know that human hearing is most sensitive in the midrange and least sensitive to the highest and lowest frequencies.

Someone linked one of the sites I've played around with before that allows you to play with a cursory form of your own personal equal loudness contour. You begin by adjusting the volume at 1kHz, then adjust all the other frequencies so they sound approximately equal in loudness to the 1kHz tone. You can then see how your curve compares.

I'll repeat once again, someone who can't hear beyond 6-7kHz has significant hearing damage, and someone who can't hear beyond 4.5kHz has severe hearing damage.

As far as the claims of hearing 26kHz, although I wouldn't say it's completely impossible, what I DID say was that a lot of playback equipment produces distortion trying to play some of the higher frequencies and these are potentially what folks are hearing. I've personally observed this on some setups and it was very obvious on one setup in particular where I could hear the 16kHz tone, but not the 17, 18 or 19 kHz tones, but I began hearing something again with the 20kHz tone and what I heard was actually progressively louder with the 21, 22 and 23kHz tones. They weren't like the pure tones that I heard up to 16kHz though, which is why I surmised that it was distortion I was hearing from the metal dome tweeters.


Max

Do you apply that curve via equalization to music you play through your system.

No need to. That is the way we naturally hear. Equal SPLs at different frequencies will have different apparent perceived loudness.

The poster inferred/assumed that if your hearing is undamaged, you should be able to hear all frequencies equally at the same volume level and that assumption is incorrect. If you try that test in the link, you can see if your hearing has significant differences from the normal equal loudness contours. Granted, it's just a rough picture and also completely depends on the playback system's ability to play back ALL the frequencies in the test with a FLAT frequency response. If the playback system is incapable of playing back some of the frequencies, then you wouldn't know if you're not hearing the frequency because YOU can't or because your system can't play it.

In addition, if the playback system is not calibrated and measured to ensure it reproduces a flat FR, then you also wouldn't know if needing to turn the volume of certain frequencies up or down to hear them at apparent equal loudness is due to deficiencies in your hearing at said frequencies or due to a dip or peak in the frequency response of the playback setup at those frequencies. If you look at the FR measurements of headphones at the one headphone website, you'll notice that most headphones don't really have a flat FR, so we'd need to keep that in mind when using tests like this.

If someone has a calibrated flat playback system measured with something like REW or Omnimic to confirm a flat FR though, they can use that test to give them a rough idea of their own equal loudness contour. If it deviates significantly from the standard contours, an appointment with an audiologist might be a good idea.


Max

FWIW, when I can, I do. For me, doing this, considerably improves the listening experience.

I can hear 16k according to the website posted on this page. Guess I'm one of the luck ones. I'm 32 now, but have been exposed to high SPL since a baby. My father was a DJ so we had loud music going in our home. 4 15" subs blasting on a daily basis and countless exposure to clubs/venues also
Edited by Del Cosmos - 8/8/12 at 4:47pm

With all due respect, thirty-two doesn't qualify as middle age. As a sixty year old, middle age is more a forty-five or fifty year old thing. Think "middle age" crisis. I don't know any thirty-two year olds suffering from a middle age crisis.

Hahaha.... I'm suffering from it man.

In that case, here's a cigar and a decent bourbon to help with the conversation.



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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/8/12 at 5:13pm

Much appreciated

I had mine in the mid/end twenties. So now you know one
the term "middle age crisis" didnt refer to a special age. It is only a possible change of ones view, which some encounter earlier, some later and some never in their life.



could it be, that we're little off topic ?

Yep, rolloff is a form of distortion because the speaker is not outputting what has been input to it. Thats why I always get a chuckle when a i hear guys say, ". I love these speakers because they are sooooo warm sounding and accurate and I can listen to them for hours.". By warm what they are usually talking about is a rolled off speaker in the mids and uppers which does not produce the highs as it should, thus giving the feeling of being pleasant to listen to for hours. It may be pleasant, it may be warm or cold depending on perception, but it definitely is not accurate when its doing that.