New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Bandwidth issues with 1080p

post #1 of 17
8/1/12 at 7:40am
Thread Starter 
I've done quite a bit of research on this, but I haven't found an answer. I'm trying to stream bluray rips, in .mkv format,
from a network share to my Panasonic DMP-BDT220. I originally tried the built in wireless, with a wireless G router.
That worked okay for 720p, but nothing higher. Next I tried "200Mb" powerline, which was better, then I ran a Cat 5e
outlet. Only the highest quality , largest files still stutter occasionally. When played from a USB drive directly connected
to the BDP, they work fine, so I figure it's not settings, or the player, or the files.. I've looked into PC settings ( the PC
is an I3 with 8 GB DDR3 and Win 7 64 bit), tried a different router (still only 100 Mb though), switched cables, no dice.
I've disabled antivirus and firewall, same. I tried sharing the files from an SSD, no improvement. It looks like (from
task manager) the files are taking less than 20% of my bandwidth, which is consistent with what I've read. Still, I've seen
posts that say Gigabit lan will fix this, and others say not. I'm about out of alternatives, so I ordered a new router with
Gigabit Ethernet, figure it couldn't hurt. Any ideas as to what I might be missing?
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2 of 17
8/1/12 at 9:43am
I encourage you to do more diagnosis, and guess less.
It doesn't cost as much in the end...biggrin.gif

Running a disk performance test across your network will reveal how well it performs.
It is important to select a test case large enough to bypass the influence of file caching on your server.

Consider how long a BD movie runs, and you can see the server will eventually start serving the file from disk and not cache.
Depending on the server, you may have some benefit from look-ahead reads.
With a large enough file, you can determine the steady state data rate your server is providing.

If you run your test case on the server itself, this will give you the disk performance without network.
Run across the wire, you will see the impact of your current network.

I use Intel gigabit NICS in my servers.
These play well with Netgear gigabit switches.
My router is an old Linksys 100mb connects to the Netgear switch for internet access.
It is pointless to have a gigabit LAN switching across a 100mb router.
Mine is isolated with a modest 5-port Netgear switch, so all traffic switches here, not in the router.
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 17
8/1/12 at 10:28am
Try a different media player that supports MKV. If that media player plays them fine, then you'll find out that the issue is your BD Player.
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 17
8/1/12 at 10:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post

I encourage you to do more diagnosis, and guess less.
It doesn't cost as much in the end...biggrin.gif
Running a disk performance test across your network will reveal how well it performs.

Could you suggest an app for that?

It is important to select a test case large enough to bypass the influence of file caching on your server.
Consider how long a BD movie runs, and you can see the server will eventually start serving the file from disk and not cache.
Depending on the server, you may have some benefit from look-ahead reads.
With a large enough file, you can determine the steady state data rate your server is providing.
If you run your test case on the server itself, this will give you the disk performance without network.
Run across the wire, you will see the impact of your current network.
I use Intel gigabit NICS in my servers.
These play well with Netgear gigabit switches.
My router is an old Linksys 100mb connects to the Netgear switch for internet access.
It is pointless to have a gigabit LAN switching across a 100mb router.

I could have used a switch, but I got a deal on the router. Traffic from the PC to the BDP will be gigbit.

Mine is isolated with a modest 5-port Netgear switch, so all traffic switches here, not in the router.
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 17
8/1/12 at 10:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

Try a different media player that supports MKV. If that media player plays them fine, then you'll find out that the issue is your BD Player.

I'm not using a media player, I setup a share on my PC, and connect the BDP directly to it.
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 17
8/1/12 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by filedog View Post

I've done quite a bit of research on this, but I haven't found an answer. I'm trying to stream bluray rips, in .mkv format,
from a network share to my Panasonic DMP-BDT220. I originally tried the built in wireless, with a wireless G router.
That worked okay for 720p, but nothing higher. Next I tried "200Mb" powerline, which was better, then I ran a Cat 5e
outlet. Only the highest quality , largest files still stutter occasionally. When played from a USB drive directly connected
to the BDP, they work fine, so I figure it's not settings, or the player, or the files.. I've looked into PC settings ( the PC
is an I3 with 8 GB DDR3 and Win 7 64 bit), tried a different router (still only 100 Mb though), switched cables, no dice.
I've disabled antivirus and firewall, same. I tried sharing the files from an SSD, no improvement. It looks like (from
task manager) the files are taking less than 20% of my bandwidth, which is consistent with what I've read. Still, I've seen
posts that say Gigabit lan will fix this, and others say not. I'm about out of alternatives, so I ordered a new router with
Gigabit Ethernet, figure it couldn't hurt. Any ideas as to what I might be missing?

If I read your post, the last solution you used is a powerline adapter. Wifi was not cutting it for you. What throughput are you "Really" getting on powerline. Just because rated at 200Mb does not mean you are getting that. I tried almost all these solutions years ago and couldnt get STEADY bandwidth. I ended up running CAT6 and problem was solved immediately.
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 17
8/1/12 at 2:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepmback View Post

If I read your post, the last solution you used is a powerline adapter. Wifi was not cutting it for you. What throughput are you "Really" getting on powerline. Just because rated at 200Mb does not mean you are getting that. I tried almost all these solutions years ago and couldnt get STEADY bandwidth. I ended up running CAT6 and problem was solved immediately.

No, I went to Ethernet after that. It works fine for all but my largest 1080p rips. It's currently only 100 Mbps,
due to my router. Unfortunately I still have occasional stuttering on the biggest files though. So, I was wondering
if anyone has any suggestions as to what the problem might be. I have a new router on order that will do
gigabit, I notice some people say it's necessary, others have no problems @ 100Mbps......just wanted some feedback
on that.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 17
8/2/12 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by filedog View Post

I'm not using a media player, I setup a share on my PC, and connect the BDP directly to it.
I thought Panasonic BD players were only DLNA clients and not capable of directly accessing SMB shares. At least that is the case with my BD-75.

With my Panasonic BD-75 I can stream the highest bitrate BD rips I have (41Mbps) without stutter when using Mezzmo DLNA server on my media-PC and across a pair of Netgear PLA's. Not the case when using serviio, TVersity, Twonky or the built-in DLNA servers on my NAS units. In addition, even when using Mezzmo, I can bitstream DTS-HD but not TrueHD -- the Mezzmo guys looked into it and told me it is a flaw with the BD-75 DLNA client.

Bottom line, Panasonic DLNA clents are picky. They are good BD players and crummy network media players. Do as Gusgus indicated and instead of spending more money replacing perfectly good routers and switches, go buy a WD Live-SMP for $99 -- or one of any number of similar media players -- and get a box that is made to do what you are trying to do. I only use my BD-75 to play disks and never as a streamer -- I have a couple WD Lives for that and they work perfectly.
Edited by Kelson - 8/2/12 at 5:35am
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 17
8/2/12 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by filedog View Post

No, I went to Ethernet after that. It works fine for all but my largest 1080p rips. It's currently only 100 Mbps,
due to my router. Unfortunately I still have occasional stuttering on the biggest files though. So, I was wondering
if anyone has any suggestions as to what the problem might be. I have a new router on order that will do
gigabit, I notice some people say it's necessary, others have no problems @ 100Mbps......just wanted some feedback
on that.

These are near impossible to answer without doing some serious tests. What kind of cable are are you running to the router and to the server? Cat 5, 5e, 6? Also, why didnt you just buy a switch instead of a new router?
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 17
8/2/12 at 6:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I thought Panasonic BD players were only DLNA clients and not capable of directly accessing SMB shares. At least that is the case with my BD-75.

As I understand it, SMB is Samba, a file structure....my drive is NTFS. The drive is made to, and can, access a network share, no problem.

With my Panasonic BD-75 I can stream the highest bitrate BD rips I have (41Mbps) without stutter when using Mezzmo DLNA server on my media-PC and across a pair of Netgear PLA's. Not the case when using serviio, TVersity, Twonky or the built-in DLNA servers on my NAS units. In addition, even when using Mezzmo, I can bitstream DTS-HD but not TrueHD -- the Mezzmo guys looked into it and told me it is a flaw with the BD-75 DLNA client.

Again, the way I understand it, mezzmo is transcoding before it goes over the network, "tailoring" the video stream to play correctly. I have been looking into this, but, if sharing works correctly, it's simpler.

Bottom line, Panasonic DLNA clents are picky. They are good BD players and crummy network media players. Do as Gusgus indicated and instead of spending more money replacing perfectly good routers and switches, go buy a WD Live-SMP for $99 -- or one of any number of similar media players -- and get a box that is made to do what you are trying to do. I only use my BD-75 to play disks and never as a streamer -- I have a couple WD Lives for that and they work perfectly.

Well, that's an idea. As I said, if I copy the file to a USB external hard drive, it plays fine, I can do that already. In the course of my research I found several cases where WD Live players were having problems with the same type of playback issues I've described.[/quote]
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 17
8/2/12 at 6:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepmback View Post

These are near impossible to answer without doing some serious tests. What kind of cable are are you running to the router and to the server? Cat 5, 5e, 6? Also, why didnt you just buy a switch instead of a new router?

My new "outlet" to the first floor is 5e, the rest are a mix of 5 and 5e, because my current network is 100Mb.
I got a wireless N, gigabit router for a price similar to a good switch. I occasionally use wifi, having "N"
available will be a bonus. When I put the new router in place, I will upgrade the rest of the cables to 5e
I have done quite a few tests, and am looking from input from those who have experienced, and hopefully fixed this issue.
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 17
8/2/12 at 6:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post


Bottom line, Panasonic DLNA clents are picky. They are good BD players and crummy network media players. Do as Gusgus indicated and instead of spending more money replacing perfectly good routers and switches, go buy a WD Live-SMP for $99 -- or one of any number of similar media players -- and get a box that is made to do what you are trying to do. I only use my BD-75 to play disks and never as a streamer -- I have a couple WD Lives for that and they work perfectly.

Hmm, now that I'm looking at this player, it DOES sound good : ) So this is the one you are talking about?
http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Streaming-Media-Player/dp/B005KOZNBW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343913967&sr=8-1&keywords=WD+Live-SMP
Looks like I can pop a large drive in an enclosure, and directly connect it......can I move files over the network to the attached drive?
Ok, after reading more, it looks like it will appear as a network storage drive - cool! I'm reading reviews, that's a bit scarey, a lot of users experiencing problems....
I'm going to try gigabit, since the hardware is already on the way. WDLIVE is an option now.
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 17
8/2/12 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by filedog View Post

As I understand it, SMB is Samba, a file structure....my drive is NTFS. The drive is made to, and can, access a network share, no problem.
SMB/CIFS is the Windows network transfer protocol not a file structure -- DLNA is also a network transfer protocol. I have read through the manual of your BDT-220. There is no indication that it is more than a DLNA client, like the rest of the Panasonic BD players. It cannot directly access an SMB shared folder (Windows share). You are using Win-7 so you are probably accessing media through the Win-7 DLNA server that is part of WMC. That DLNA server is not very good and it may be having problems with MKV files -- it may even be trans-coding and you just don't know it.

On the other hand, it is not uncommon for media players to have problems with some MKV files. But I believe you stated in your OP that the same files play fine when attached to the BDT-220 via external USB drive, so it is not the player. My money is on the DLNA server. When I set up my BD-75 I went through several DLNA servers until I found Mezzmo.
Quote:
Again, the way I understand it, mezzmo is transcoding before it goes over the network, "tailoring" the video stream to play correctly. I have been looking into this, but, if sharing works correctly, it's simpler.
Not necessarily, you can turn it off. I only stream BD.m2ts and other file types that are supported by my players so I turned off Mezzmo's transcoding.
Quote:
Well, that's an idea. As I said, if I copy the file to a USB external hard drive, it plays fine, I can do that already. In the course of my research I found several cases where WD Live players were having problems with the same type of playback issues I've described.
Problems with WD Live players and high bitrate rips are usually from people either trying to stream BD wirelessly and/or occasionally MKV files. I have never had a problem streaming BD.m2ts files of any bitrate over my wired network.
Edited by Kelson - 8/2/12 at 7:52am
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 17
8/2/12 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by filedog View Post

Hmm, now that I'm looking at this player, it DOES sound good : ) So this is the one you are talking about?
http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Streaming-Media-Player/dp/B005KOZNBW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343913967&sr=8-1&keywords=WD+Live-SMP
Looks like I can pop a large drive in an enclosure, and directly connect it......can I move files over the network to the attached drive?
Ok, after reading more, it looks like it will appear as a network storage drive - cool! I'm reading reviews, that's a bit scarey, a lot of users experiencing problems....
I'm going to try gigabit, since the hardware is already on the way. WDLIVE is an option now.
Yes, I have the Live-SMP and the previous Live+ -- both in active duty. Both work perfectly for streaming all my video content which is almost entirely DVD.iso rips, BD.m2ts rips and HDTV captures from my TiVo and HD Homerun which have been edited and saved as either .mpg or .m2ts files. I never use my BD-75 for streaming media.

I originally had a dual drive USB enclosure with a 4TB volume attached to a WD Live. Network transfers of content was slow so you would need patience -- I just set up transfers to go over night and while at work. But if you are wired, there is no need. Just set up a NAS. File sharing from Win-7 to consumer devices sucks. I still run Win-XP on my media-PC and never have a problem. If you really want to use a local drive, consider a pair of USB docks so you can pull the drive(s) and dock it to your PC for fast loading.

The one knock on the WD Live is that it doesn't bitstream DTS-HD and just sends out the core DTS audio. That was the reason I set up streaming from my BD-75 -- it would bitstream DTS-HD and I wanted to see if we could hear a difference on my AV setup. Turns out we can't, which was just fine with me. I've never streamed from the BD-75 since.
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 17
8/2/12 at 9:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Yes, I have the Live-SMP and the previous Live+ -- both in active duty. Both work perfectly for streaming all my video content which is almost entirely DVD.iso rips, BD.m2ts rips and HDTV captures from my TiVo and HD Homerun which have been edited and saved as either .mpg or .m2ts files. I never use my BD-75 for streaming media.
I originally had a dual drive USB enclosure with a 4TB volume attached to a WD Live. Network transfers of content was slow so you would need patience -- I just set up transfers to go over night and while at work. But if you are wired, there is no need. Just set up a NAS. File sharing from Win-7 to consumer devices sucks. I still run Win-XP on my media-PC and never have a problem. If you really want to use a local drive, consider a pair of USB docks so you can pull the drive(s) and dock it to your PC for fast loading.
The one knock on the WD Live is that it doesn't bitstream DTS-HD and just sends out the core DTS audio. That was the reason I set up streaming from my BD-75 -- it would bitstream DTS-HD and I wanted to see if we could hear a difference on my AV setup. Turns out we can't, which was just fine with me. I've never streamed from the BD-75 since.

Man, this stuff is complex......lucky I have gotten this info here, so many ins and outs to making this work !
What kind of problems did you have sharing files with Win 7? The USB dock is a good idea, already have one
on the PC, so that makes my "backup solution" a little easier. I have learned some great stuff with all this research,
will try using DLNA to play my music files. Still all (heh) I need to fix is playing my large .mkvs smoothly.
Sure wish gigbit was the solution, but the WDTV box may be instead.
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 17
8/2/12 at 3:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

SMB/CIFS is the Windows network transfer protocol not a file structure -- DLNA is also a network transfer protocol. I have read through the manual of your BDT-220. There is no indication that it is more than a DLNA client, like the rest of the Panasonic BD players. It cannot directly access an SMB shared folder (Windows share). You are using Win-7 so you are probably accessing media through the Win-7 DLNA server that is part of WMC. That DLNA server is not very good and it may be having problems with MKV files -- it may even be trans-coding and you just don't know it.
On the other hand, it is not uncommon for media players to have problems with some MKV files. But I believe you stated in your OP that the same files play fine when attached to the BDT-220 via external USB drive, so it is not the player. My money is on the DLNA server. When I set up my BD-75 I went through several DLNA servers until I found Mezzmo.
Not necessarily, you can turn it off. I only stream BD.m2ts and other file types that are supported by my players so I turned off Mezzmo's transcoding.
Problems with WD Live players and high bitrate rips are usually from people either trying to stream BD wirelessly and/or occasionally MKV files. I have never had a problem streaming BD.m2ts files of any bitrate over my wired network.

I really appreciate the help, but I am playing these files from a share. From "home" I got to "network drive".
Had to enter an IP address and user name /pw. I'm trying to get Mezzmo to work now. The BDP finds the DLNA
server (not how I was playing from a share) ok, but it's giving me errors. Blocky video, and an "out of memory"
error on the PC (8 GB ram, dual core i3, SSD). So, I'm working on that now, but very temted to just get the WDTV : )
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 17
8/4/12 at 6:37am
Thread Starter 
I figured I should write a follow up, for anyone who's doing research. I'm by no means an expert, most of what I know I learned here, but I am pretty tech savvy.
My goal was to playback my .mkv bluray rips. My BDP will do that from a network share or locally, from an attached drive. I initially wanted to play them from a share,
but that is tricky. There are MANY posts on different forums about this, with apparently no solution. BTW, we are talking wired connection only here, leave wireless
out of the equation. Sure, some people report success, but lots of guys, with gigabit Ethernet are still having issues with stuttering, Once my network was upgraded,
to all cat 5e and gigabit router (no improvement), I tried different drives, including SSD in my PC, turning off antivirus and firewall, even tried a freshly loaded dual core
XP box, that had never had antivirus or an aftermarket firewall installed, same stutter. After two weeks or so of working on this problem, I was ready to give up.

Thanks to members here suggesting the WD TV boxes, I started looking into that. Once I learned some folks are still having stutter issues with WIRED networks
playing .mkv on this box, and local transfer solves the issue, I figured "why fight it", I can just use the external drive and be done. Once kelson told me file transfer
to the WD TV over the network was slow, that was the clincher. The external hard drive solution isn't perfect, but the rips PLAY perfectly. Fast forward and rewind
are really quick, and NO STUTTER! Oh, I tried DLNA briefly, got Mezzmo to work, but the down side was the aspect ratio was going to need more tweaking, the IQ
did not seems as good, FF and rewind were ABYSMAL, and needing to leave the PC on was a pain. I will use DLNA for music playback, that seemed to work well,
but I'm going to sort that out later.

So, I just bring the ext. HDD to my PC for file transfer and organization, then connect it back to the BDP for playback. Not perfect, but it solves my problem nicely.
As has been said, media players and ripped file playback is kind of a red-headed stepchild at this point, and too close to the "bleeding edge" for me. I need more
time enjoying my system, and less time doing reasearch!
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

Gear mentioned in this thread: