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Sony, Panasonic and Sharp TV divisions melting down in summer 2012 heat - Page 2

post #31 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Thanks much. I am assuming it would actually be quattron panels from 10G.

Interesting. Very possible that's true.
post #32 of 149
Thread Starter 
Today's WSJ reports that Sharp's finances are dire, Hon Hai may have to back out of plans to buy part of the Sakai plant, and things are looking horribly bleak for Sharp. Solar and LCD are both losing money, the other divisions are not very valuable, etc. etc. Apple may be forced to do something it really doesn't want to do if it's committed to creating an alternative to Samsung. If Sharp collapses -- and sorry Sharp fans, but that's a real possibility -- Apple will basically have to find a way to make peace with Samsung or else it will need to build its own display fabs. The only alternative to those two is to go single source with LG. No one else is viable in small screens right now, which is why Apple was trying to get Sharp to become a viable supplier. Not sure how this all plays out, but alliances shift quickly. Apple and Google may bid together on the Kodak patents, which will effectively end Kodak ironically enough. The Apple-Samsung trial is a mess. If Samsung comes in with a settlement offer, they might win by losing. They pay Apple $1-2 billion, but get Apple back as a full-time customer for the next decade, instead of one that is moving every single piece it can away from Samsung.
post #33 of 149
Sakai 10G is a personal investment from Terry Guo, not Hon Hai per se. Today Nikkei reported Hon Hai may want to buy 20% stake in Sharp rather than 9.9% previously. I think effectively they are just paying same amount of money to get a bigger stake since Sharp share price has halved biggrin.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1402351/sharp-plays-stayin-alive-sells-shares-to-foxconn#post_21837168

In any case, the catalyst for Hon Hai's investment in Sharp is probably from their customer Apple anyway.
post #34 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Sakai 10G is a personal investment from Terry Guo, not Hon Hai per se. Today Nikkei reported Hon Hai may want to buy 20% stake in Sharp rather than 9.9% previously. I think effectively they are just paying same amount of money to get a bigger stake since Sharp share price has halved biggrin.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1402351/sharp-plays-stayin-alive-sells-shares-to-foxconn#post_21837168
In any case, the catalyst for Hon Hai's investment in Sharp is probably from their customer Apple anyway.

Actually, Spec, it was supposed to be both. Taiwanese regulators have blocked Hon Hai from investing directly at this time because of concerns that it's a bad business deal for Hon Hai (we have no such reviews here in the U.S., only anti-trust / competition-type reviews). Sharp needs all the investment it can get.

The fact that this deal might be coming apart is not good news for Sharp. The fact that by the time the deal is completed, Sharp might not own much of Sakai at all is also not good news for Sharp./
post #35 of 149
The Taiwanese regulator's stance is smoke and mirror to gain bargaining power smile.gif It is not a "proper review" as we understand it to be. As long as Apple is using Sharp panels, Foxconn/ Hon Hai will likely invest in Sharp, especially with the advent of in-cell touch.
post #36 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

The Taiwanese regulator's stance is smoke and mirror to gain bargaining power smile.gif It is not a "proper review" as we understand it to be. As long as Apple is using Sharp panels, Foxconn/ Hon Hai will likely invest in Sharp, especially with the advent of in-cell touch.

I'm not doubting that. At this point, I'm not sure Sharp will own any of the plant when all is said and done however. smile.gif

I see today's news is Sharp is trying to sell off its assembly plants. Those are not worth much of anything so this is really a move to get someone else to take the payroll. I doubt it will actually raise capital.
post #37 of 149
Thread Starter 
WSJ says it's getting even worse....
Quote:
Sharp is coming unraveled, and fast.

... shares in Osaka-based Sharp have crashed 70% in five months to 40-year lows.

... On Tuesday, it said 3,000 jobs will be cut on top of 5,000 losses already announced—together totaling 14% of its workforce. The company's also considering selling factories in China and Mexico.

A lifeline from Taiwan's Hon Hai Precision is close to the breaking point as well. Hon Hai in March initially planned to purchase a 9.9% Sharp stake, injecting $840 million into the Japanese company, based on a Sharp share price of 550 yen ($6.93). That looks far too rich given the stock's now languishing at ¥175.

With Taiwanese regulators balking at the deal, Hon Hai has told Sharp it must renegotiate. Hon Hai will want to hold out for the best deal it can, or even just wait to scoop up the pieces if Sharp can't pull out of its nosedive.

Sharp's last best hope is in no hurry to help—it's aiming to wrap up negotiations by March. Talks are said to resume next week.

Meanwhile, Sharp's banks are at the door. The company is saddled with $16 billion in debt, and has the bulk of its $4.5 billion in commercial paper coming due next month. Investors are worried—the cost of default protection on its debt has tripled to Greek levels since July.

Sharp may well be headed for bankruptcy. That doesn't mean it's going away, but it does mean independent Sharp as we know it might not be around much longer. Unfortunately, any change there doesn't really help Sony or Panasonic. It's almost like each could fail independently, regardless of what happens to the others.
post #38 of 149
How much would a Pioneer Kuro copy cost if the Chinese produced it?

Please do it China! If I could get that for a cheap price I wouldn't care if Japan went bankrupt!

Looks to me like China should make everything. Are there any countries in the world with lower labor prices than China?
post #39 of 149
^bring on the Churo Elites!
post #40 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

^bring on the Churo Elites!

Did someone say churro elites? Yum!
post #41 of 149
Serves them right for not getting behind SED like they should have. Blame me because I put a hex them for not getting behind SED TV.biggrin.gif
Edited by Auditor55 - 8/23/12 at 1:56pm
post #42 of 149
^Yes, that must be it.rolleyes.gif
post #43 of 149
greenland posted on the lg oled thread that lg is losing money selling televisions. so sony, panny, sharp and lg are all in a business in which none of them make any money.

explain how that business model is sustainable.
post #44 of 149
Hi,

You can probably add Toshiba to that list - How the mighty fall…..

Bazzy!
post #45 of 149
See LG 2Q results page 16. TV is under "Home Entertainment" segment with 3.9% POSITIVE Operating Margins.

http://www.lg.com/global/ir/reports/earning-release.jsp

"In terms of sales composition, we forecast LGE's MC division as a percentage of total sales will begin to move up in 2013 after shrinking to below 20% in 2012 from as high as 33% in 2009 due to meaningful decline in feature phones. In OP composition, we expect HE (mostly TV) to remain the biggest profit center in 2013 while MC division will contribute around 25% of total OP in 2013 compared to merely 3% in 2012." - JPM 26 July 2012
post #46 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

greenland posted on the lg oled thread that lg is losing money selling televisions. so sony, panny, sharp and lg are all in a business in which none of them make any money.
explain how that business model is sustainable.

If the corporation feels that they will be able to turn a profit at Some Future Time, they may very well be willing to subsidize a losing division - perhaps for some years, if their pockets are deep enough, and/or someone Up High "believes" in the under-performing products.


Quote:
See LG 2Q results page 16. TV is under "Home Entertainment" segment with 3.9% POSITIVE Operating Margins.

Still, for 2011, the Operating Income the Home Electronics (HE) division was Under 2%. The doubling to roughly 3.9% for the first 2 Qtrs of 2012 coincides with the addition of "the PC and Car business unit" to the HE unit. Seems likely that "PC & Car" is due credit for this Op Inc increase.

Also, HE consists of TV, Car & Media, IT (Monitor & PC) PLUS "CEM," which is expanded as "Chemical & Electronic Material" ( eek.gif )

It would take more detail than is shown to determine whether or not "TV" activities result in an operating profit (or loss), because while one might ASSUME that "TV" is the largest unit of these 4, that is not spelled out. (And, even if it IS the largest unit in HE, a Small Loss in TV might be offset by gains in the three other units.)

In any event, based upon the figures provided it does seem unlikely that LG TV operations are Losing Money Hand-over-Fist....
post #47 of 149
This is interesting. What it all means is probably that people have become bored with current flat-panel tvs and they don't feel the need to purchase anything that offers a mild spec bump. I get it. I have a Panasonic plasma from 2009 and even though there are better plasmas now, I don't feel the mildly improved specs warrant an upgrade expense. Tv sets would have to get much better to compel people to pay attention, just like FPs did as compared to CRTs. Like rogo said, 4K and OLED will probably not be enough to cause an average consumer to suddenly exclaim, "I've got to have this!" No, what consumers need now (what I need :-)) is something more revolutionary. And what would make me upgrade now is only a transparent polymer "wallpaper" "tv set" I could hang on my wall. I'd like to be able to order this >100"-diagonal, super-thin, super-light sheet in a roll so I could easily transport it home, unroll it and hang on my wall. Ease of installation is important because, even if people had the money for that 103" Panasonic plasma, how would they get it into their homes without it becoming a construction project? The bulk of current >100" flat-panel tvs is a less obvious barrier to adoption besides cost and energy consumption.

It's a given, of course, that, these huge tv sizes require 4K, at least, and nothing less than OLED PQ specs. But, it's the new form factor that will decide whether people get the irresistible urge to upgrade or not. And it all must be cheap, and it could be, once these struggling tv makers figure out reliable roll-to-roll production of these giant, wallpaper-like OLED or QLED polymer sheets. Until that happens, an average consumer will not care about these incremental improvements in specs, therefore will refuse to buy the traditional flat-panel tv set unless his current tv set breaks down.
Edited by vtms - 8/24/12 at 7:12pm
post #48 of 149
Thread Starter 
@vtms, this TV you describe sounds very very appealing. I too would like one. smile.gif
post #49 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Serves them right for not getting behind SED like they should have. Blame me because I put a hex them for not getting behind SED TV.biggrin.gif

Actually, blame them because they didn't get behind HD-DVD. A single standard shouldn't include Sony dictating the standards. Sony always had to buck the trend, and now they are reaping what they sowed.
Edited by Tazishere - 8/26/12 at 4:51pm
post #50 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms View Post

This is interesting. What it all means is probably that people have become bored with current flat-panel tvs and they don't feel the need to purchase anything that offers a mild spec bump....., an average consumer will not care about these incremental improvements in specs, therefore will refuse to buy the traditional flat-panel tv set unless his current tv set breaks down.

We have lived in a "middle-class" neighborhood in suburban Detroit for some 15 years, and take evening walks several times during the week.

Over the course of this summer, have noticed an "explosion" in LARGE Panel TV sets during the course of our evening stroll - and, of course, that is based solely upon those that are placed Front & Center in someone's living room & thus easily seen from the street. (And, in many cases, from a fair distance away!)

Would guess that these are all in the 60" And Over size class, so SOMEONE is buying the large panels.
To be fair, between an originally older local population (we were the "Young Couple" when we moved in!), and the collapse in local home prices, we now have many more younger families in the neighborhood, so perhaps we are merely seeing that reflected in large-panel HDTV ownership.
post #51 of 149
Thread Starter 
Every person buying a bargain-priced 60" TV is one more person who isn't upgrading to 4K, OLED, or whatever high-end set is coming down the pike.
post #52 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post

Still, for 2011, the Operating Income the Home Electronics (HE) division was Under 2%. The doubling to roughly 3.9% for the first 2 Qtrs of 2012 coincides with the addition of "the PC and Car business unit" to the HE unit. Seems likely that "PC & Car" is due credit for this Op Inc increase.
Also, HE consists of TV, Car & Media, IT (Monitor & PC) PLUS "CEM," which is expanded as "Chemical & Electronic Material" ( eek.gif )
It would take more detail than is shown to determine whether or not "TV" activities result in an operating profit (or loss), because while one might ASSUME that "TV" is the largest unit of these 4, that is not spelled out. (And, even if it IS the largest unit in HE, a Small Loss in TV might be offset by gains in the three other units.)
In any event, based upon the figures provided it does seem unlikely that LG TV operations are Losing Money Hand-over-Fist....

See the comment by JPM. It implies that TV is the largest profit contributor to LGE in 2012 as well, which I happen to know it is true. My posts are simply to correct perceptions that are untrue.
post #53 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

See the comment by JPM. It implies that TV is the largest profit contributor to LGE in 2012 as well, which I happen to know it is true. My posts are simply to correct perceptions that are untrue.

Was not intending to jump on the "Gee, Everyone is losing money on HDTVs" bandwagon - although my disclaimer / conclusion on that point did not appear until the final sentence.

Simply wished to point out that it would be difficult to determine TV Op Inc based upon the stats included in their document.

By extension, this seems a good example of why Insider Trading - based on Inside Information - beats the general public.... wink.gif
post #54 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Every person buying a bargain-priced 60" TV is one more person who isn't upgrading to 4K, OLED, or whatever high-end set is coming down the pike.

Sounds right.


Couple observations / speculations:

What is the definition of "bargain-priced 60" TVs" - ??

Are current (2011 - 2012) buyers of such panels likely to be in the 4K and/or OLED market even if they had NOT recently purchased a set?

We have a 60ST50, which I consider a Mid-Priced TV, and plan / hope not to replace if for 4 to 5 years.
At that time our oldest plasma will be 9 to 10 years old, so there is always the chance of equipment failure interfering with our Plans. But, assuming it is, indeed, the Oldest set that fails, the question will be whether to simply replace its Function (42" bedroom set), or to buy a new "Main HT TV" and step the others down one rung.

If the new tech - 4K or OLED - still comes only in Premium Priced sets, we will not be very tempted, even though we are considered "early adapters" by most of our friends / family.

Certainly there will be a market for these new panels - but unless we see a dramatic economic turn-around, suspect that that market will be quite small for some years yet.
post #55 of 149
Here is some interesting food for thought on how and why the major Japanese corporations lost their electronics crown.

http://www.avrev.com/forum/plasma-lcd-hdtv/6080-how-japan-lost-its-electronics-crown.html
post #56 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Every person buying a bargain-priced 60" TV is one more person who isn't upgrading to 4K, OLED, or whatever high-end set is coming down the pike.

I don't know. A bargain 60" is at best a stop-gap measure to carry over until the 4K (or better yet, 8K) OLED's arrive. There's no comparison between the two. If my next door neighbor had a 60" 4k OLED TV, I surely would want one even if I had a 2012, 60" 1080p TV. Or I would over to his house all the time watching his TV and grumbling about my 60" 1080p TV.
post #57 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

I don't know. A bargain 60" is at best a stop-gap measure to carry over until the 4K (or better yet, 8K) OLED's arrive. There's no comparison between the two. If my next door neighbor had a 60" 4k OLED TV, I surely would want one even if I had a 2012, 60" 1080p TV. Or I would over to his house all the time watching his TV and grumbling about my 60" 1080p TV.

I don't mean to offend you by this, but normal people don't think like that. They don't buy a 60" TV because it's cheap thinking, "What I really want is a very expensive TV that I've actually never really heard of, so as soon as that comes out, I'm getting it." The people buying inexpensive 60" TVs were probably never going to be OLED early adopters (and that's fine), but the fact they just bought a TV means they are also unlikely to even be on the market for another TV for 5-10 years -- the realistic lifespan of a TV. That means that as big LCDs get cheaper, the market for future, fancier TVs shrinks further. I've been saying this for years and the fact that the TV market is shrinking globally actually backs this up.
post #58 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

Here is some interesting food for thought on how and why the major Japanese corporations lost their electronics crown.
http://www.avrev.com/forum/plasma-lcd-hdtv/6080-how-japan-lost-its-electronics-crown.html

Interesting read - thanks for posting the link.
post #59 of 149
Just a few comments from down here in Electronics Retailing Hell;)

"Cheap 60"=$1500 or less, maybe 2k for a 3D capable model.

Number of customers who've mentionned OLED in the last 6 months or so=2. Both found a projected price point of 6-8k for a 55" set ludicrous.

Percentage of customers who adamantly reject plasma-75-80%

Percentage who choose based on maximum light output-80%

In my experience about half the purchasers or 60"+ sets are replacing a 7-10 year old 60-65" crt based rptv that's showing it's age.
post #60 of 149
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