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Switching from 5.1 to 2 channel... Need advice.

post #1 of 20
8/2/12 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
Current Setup

Sony STR-DG820 Reciever 100wpc x 7
Sony Blueray player
Cerwin Vega MX400's - 400w @ 4ohms
TSC Surrounds and center channel
TSC 10 Downward firing sub


Moving towards setup

Adcom 750 PreAmp
Adcom 555 Amp 200wpc x 2
Infinity Kappa 7 Speakers
Marantz Tuner

I plan on keeping the blueray player and passing left/right channel to my preamp.

My room is 20'longx14' deep. My speakers are on the 14' wall if that helps.

Any suggestions?
Edited by silvershark - 8/3/12 at 12:10am
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post #2 of 20
8/2/12 at 2:26pm
Thread Starter 
10 views and no response... I am going to assume I am on the right track.

I have an Ipod, but was planning on using 2RCA's to a single headphone jack to play mp3's. Other than that, my TV has 3 HDMI inputs, so I dont need a receiver to pass Video.

Hopefully this helps clarify why I am using older technology instead of something with integrated mp3 plugins like the Parasound 2100.
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post #3 of 20
8/2/12 at 2:29pm
The lack of response may be because it's not clear what you wanted suggestions about. You seem to know what you want.
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post #4 of 20
8/2/12 at 2:43pm
Thread Starter 
I wanted to make sure these are good quality parts and will push my speakers correctly.

Currently I have an old Analog Kenwood KR-5070 Receiver that does 85wpc but my buddy is telling me they wont drive the Kappa 7's correctly and should look into individual components.

He is letting me borrow an adcom preamp right now along with a Yamaha M-70 amp. The main difference that I can audiably tell is that the hissing or static that my kenwood introduces to my current speakers is gone with the pre-amp and the amp.

My current Sony just sounds like crap to be honest. My analog kenwood is night/day difference in sound compared to my crappy sony HT receiver. So I have seen what a decent amp can do for sound and moving towards individual products instead of an integrated I thought might give me more versatility overall.

Hopefully I am not way off base here.

Just giving my 2 cents from my very limited experience.
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post #5 of 20
8/2/12 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Currently I have an old Analog Kenwood KR-5070 Receiver that does 85wpc but my buddy is telling me they wont drive the Kappa 7's correctly and should look into individual components.
Your buddy is almost certainly wrong. The Kenwood, assuming it's in good working order, should drive those speakers just fine.
Quote:
He is letting me borrow an adcom preamp right now along with a Yamaha M-70 amp. The main difference that I can audiably tell is that the hissing or static that my kenwood introduces to my current speakers is gone with the pre-amp and the amp.
Well, that indicates that perhaps the Kenwood is not in good working order. That's a different issue.
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My current Sony just sounds like crap to be honest. My analog kenwood is night/day difference in sound compared to my crappy sony HT receiver.
The Kenwood produces hissing and static, and the Sony sounds worse? That's kind of hard to believe.
Quote:
So I have seen what a decent amp can do for sound and moving towards individual products instead of an integrated I thought might give me more versatility overall.
They will, but at a price. Separates won't really give you better sound quality, however.
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post #6 of 20
8/2/12 at 3:11pm
Thread Starter 
Maybe I am not describing the exact sound clearly from the Kenwood.... The kenwood is an integrated amplifier with a tuner. At low level volumes when I have my DVD player hooked up and I hit the switch to play the DVD on the receiver to switch audio channels, I can faintly hear the AM/FM tuner... Like its playing both sources... That would be the best way to describe it.

The other problem is that when power is applied to the kenwood it sounds much like when you play a LP... Right before the LP actually starts there is this white noise or static. At low volumes you can always here it on the kenwood... Once the volume is turned up a bit, it totally goes away, or isnt audiable because the music is loud enough where I can no longer detect it.

All in all I really like the kenwoods amplifier, but the few things listed above drive me to buy seperates. His Adcom and Yamaha give my speakers the same great sound, but remove the two issues above that my kenwood is experiencing.

The Sony sounds flat, no umph or quality sound... the highs are able to be made out, but the lows and mids sound muffled or muddy, maybe thats a good explanation?

If I turn the power on my kenwood and turn it to FM it plays great, the sound is amazing and the few options like bass boost, and a few other slider adjustments depending on the music I am listening to really lets me adjust the sound to my liking. My sony is really plane jane, it doesnt have any equalizer type things I can adjust to make the sound seem listenable and it just cant drive my 400w 4ohm CV's.

My kenwood does a better job, but I know I cant turn up the volume due to risking burning up my amp and or killing my speakers.

Either way, I have heard great reviews on the kapa 7's and I can have them for around $300 for the pair in decent condition.

Hopefully that background gives a little more explanation on why the kenwood sounds "better" than my sony AVR.
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post #7 of 20
8/2/12 at 7:34pm
Silvershark: are these the Kappa 7s you own?

http://www.infinity-classics.de/models/Kappa-series-1987/index-Kappa.htm

From their spec page:
Quote:
Nominal Impedance: 4 to 6 ohms
Power Rating: 40-200 watts RMS
Efficiency: 88 dB @1 watt, 1 meter
Crossover Frequencies: 800Hz, 4500Hz
Frequency Response: 37Hz-45kHz +/-3dB
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post #8 of 20
8/3/12 at 12:07am
Thread Starter 
Yes, those are the Kappas.
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post #9 of 20
8/3/12 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvershark View Post

Yes, those are the Kappas.
O.K., just wanted to make sure they weren't the newer and very different series sold in the mid 2000s.
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post #10 of 20
8/3/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvershark View Post

I wanted to make sure these are good quality parts and will push my speakers correctly.
Currently I have an old Analog Kenwood KR-5070 Receiver that does 85wpc but my buddy is telling me they wont drive the Kappa 7's correctly and should look into individual components.

These old Kappa 7's are legendary for their nasty, nasty (did I say nasty?) pathological impedance curve:



Note the dips below the forbidden 2.0 ohm line and even the doubly forbidden 1.0 ohm line, centered at 32 Hz and 7 KHz.

These speakers aren't fit to be driven by any real world amplifier, whether separates (even monoblocks!), in a receiver, or by a mule skinner high on meth!
Quote:
He is letting me borrow an adcom preamp right now along with a Yamaha M-70 amp. The main difference that I can audiably tell is that the hissing or static that my Kenwood introduces to my current speakers is gone with the pre-amp and the amp.

That of course has nothing to do with the nasty, out-of-date, not properly-designed when they were new Kappas.
Quote:
My current Sony just sounds like crap to be honest.

The Yamaha M-70 is a classic, and might just be a very good match for these speakers, such as they are. The M70 has puts out a conservative 200 wpc, and if memory serves it is a MOSFET design. This makes it a better choice for driving badly-designed speakers.

Some of the newer receivers that are rated for driving 2 ohm loads might work out.

When people say that just about any well-designed amp can properly drive just about any well-designed speakers, the equation doesn't hold in this rare case because these speakers, with their dips down below 1 ohm, simply aren't well-designed. Back in the day, a pair of Kappa 7s might leave a trail of burned and charred Flame Linear 700s behind them. In modern times, most good amps that are bad choices just go into protection mode, save themselves, and sound like piss at unexpectedly low volume levels.
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post #11 of 20
8/3/12 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

These old Kappa 7's are legendary for their nasty, nasty (did I say nasty?) pathological impedance curve:

Note the dips below the forbidden 2.0 ohm line and even the doubly forbidden 1.0 ohm line, centered at 32 Hz and 7 KHz.
These speakers aren't fit to be driven by any real world amplifier, whether separates (even monoblocks!), in a receiver, or by a mule skinner high on meth!
That of course has nothing to do with the nasty, out-of-date, not properly-designed when they were new Kappas.
The Yamaha M-70 is a classic, and might just be a very good match for these speakers, such as they are. The M70 has puts out a conservative 200 wpc, and if memory serves it is a MOSFET design. This makes it a better choice for driving badly-designed speakers.
Some of the newer receivers that are rated for driving 2 ohm loads might work out.
When people say that just about any well-designed amp can properly drive just about any well-designed speakers, the equation doesn't hold in this rare case because these speakers, with their dips down below 1 ohm, simply aren't well-designed. Back in the day, a pair of Kappa 7s might leave a trail of burned and charred Flame Linear 700s behind them. In modern times, most good amps that are bad choices just go into protection mode, save themselves, and sound like piss at unexpectedly low volume levels.

A nice post. Which is why I've not yet put you on my ignore list.
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post #12 of 20
8/3/12 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Note the dips below the forbidden 2.0 ohm line and even the doubly forbidden 1.0 ohm line, centered at 32 Hz and 7 KHz.
Ouch. I retract what I said about his current gear driving these.

The good news for silvershark is that he apparently hasn't bought these yet. He may want to reconsider.
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post #13 of 20
8/4/12 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

These old Kappa 7's are legendary for their nasty, nasty (did I say nasty?) pathological impedance curve:

Note the dips below the forbidden 2.0 ohm line and even the doubly forbidden 1.0 ohm line, centered at 32 Hz and 7 KHz.
These speakers aren't fit to be driven by any real world amplifier, whether separates (even monoblocks!), in a receiver, or by a mule skinner high on meth!
That of course has nothing to do with the nasty, out-of-date, not properly-designed when they were new Kappas.
The Yamaha M-70 is a classic, and might just be a very good match for these speakers, such as they are. The M70 has puts out a conservative 200 wpc, and if memory serves it is a MOSFET design. This makes it a better choice for driving badly-designed speakers.
Some of the newer receivers that are rated for driving 2 ohm loads might work out.
When people say that just about any well-designed amp can properly drive just about any well-designed speakers, the equation doesn't hold in this rare case because these speakers, with their dips down below 1 ohm, simply aren't well-designed. Back in the day, a pair of Kappa 7s might leave a trail of burned and charred Flame Linear 700s behind them. In modern times, most good amps that are bad choices just go into protection mode, save themselves, and sound like piss at unexpectedly low volume levels.

Ugg. That is a nasty impedance curve!

Still, if you dont mind the expense, some of the older Krell amps will drive a 1 ohm load pretty well (KSA 150, KSA 200, KSA 250). But even used, these amps will run you over $2000 probably. Easier just to set your sights on a different speaker.

Flame Linear...thats funny cause I knew a guy who had one of these and driving a 4 ohm loads it smoked. And yes, we called it the "Flame Linear" also smile.gif
Edited by jim19611961 - 8/4/12 at 5:11pm
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post #14 of 20
8/4/12 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Still, if you dont mind the expense, some of the older Krell amps will drive a 1 ohm load pretty well (KSA150, KSA 200, KSA 250). But even used, these amps will run you over $2000 probably.
Somehow I suspect a guy looking at spending $300 on a used pair of speakers isn't in the market for that kind of amp. Call it a hunch.

Now, it's possible to find amps that will drive those speakers for a lot less, if you know what you're looking for. But I agree he'd be better off starting fresh.

Question for the OP: What kind of $$ were you thinking of spending on a 2-channel system? (And don't worry; whatever it is, we've helped out people who were spending less!)
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post #15 of 20
8/4/12 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Somehow I suspect a guy looking at spending $300 on a used pair of speakers isn't in the market for that kind of amp. Call it a hunch.
Now, it's possible to find amps that will drive those speakers for a lot less, if you know what you're looking for. But I agree he'd be better off starting fresh.
Question for the OP: What kind of $$ were you thinking of spending on a 2-channel system? (And don't worry; whatever it is, we've helped out people who were spending less!)

Doesnt every TRUE audio enthusiast own at least one KRELL amp in their lifetime ? biggrin.gif

Really though, those amps are the only ones I could think of actually RATED at 1 ohm loads. I know, Cause I used to have a Krell KSA 200. 200/ch into 8ohms, 400 into 4, 800 into 2, 1600 watts into 1 ohm!

Ok, really really, id be afraid to hook those speakers up to most amps. The impedance goes < 3ohms at 60hz., < 2ohms at 50? The current requirements would be enormous. You would "Flame Linear" 99% of the amps out there at sustained high power levels.
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post #16 of 20
8/5/12 at 4:37am
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Ok, really really, id be afraid to hook those speakers up to most amps. The impedance goes < 3ohms at 60hz., < 2ohms at 50? The current requirements would be enormous. You would "Flame Linear" 99% of the amps out there at sustained high power levels.

The OP pretty well told the expected story about his experiences with hooking a garden variety AVR to really weird speakers like these. It sounded not good. The reason was that the amp protected itself from the load, and clipped at relatively low power levels.

Mainstream manufacturers can't afford to have equipment become warranty issues for predictable avoidable reasons like this.

People make mistakes wiring up their speakers and end up shorting their amps all the time. Shorts are even worse loads than 1 or 2 ohm speakers. Do people short speaker leads, and turn the volume up because they can't hear anything loud enough? Of course!
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post #17 of 20
8/5/12 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The OP pretty well told the expected story about his experiences with hooking a garden variety AVR to really weird speakers like these. It sounded not good. The reason was that the amp protected itself from the load, and clipped at relatively low power levels.
Mainstream manufacturers can't afford to have equipment become warranty issues for predictable avoidable reasons like this.
People make mistakes wiring up their speakers and end up shorting their amps all the time. Shorts are even worse loads than 1 or 2 ohm speakers. Do people short speaker leads, and turn the volume up because they can't hear anything loud enough? Of course!

And if the protection circuitry fails on a non-warranty amp? Its happened to me.
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post #18 of 20
8/5/12 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

And if the protection circuitry fails on a non-warranty amp? Its happened to me.
So the potential for a failure is your reasoning behind a >$2k room heater of an amp?
Buy a Behringer EP1500/2000 for about $200, and when and if it fails, replace it. You could go through about 4 sets of speakers and amp and still not be worse off than spending on the Krell.
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post #19 of 20
8/5/12 at 12:26pm
I think I am being misunderstood.

The Krell suggestion was a joke. wink.gif

My point is why buy a amp whereby you have to count on protective circuitry to keep it from flaming? Either get a amp (not a Krell) that can drive a 1 or 2 ohm loads ok, or get speakers that are easier to drive.
Edited by jim19611961 - 8/5/12 at 12:35pm
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post #20 of 20
8/9/12 at 3:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

I think I am being misunderstood.
The Krell suggestion was a joke. wink.gif

I got that.
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My point is why buy a amp whereby you have to count on protective circuitry to keep it from flaming?

Same reason your house wiring has fuses or circuit breakers. It is possible to put in wiring that is heavy enough so that if you had a problem in your house no fuse would blow in your house, and instead the power line leading up to your house would fry, or maybe the pole transformer. Obviously ludicrous and actually more unsafe because everybody wins when a bad appliance causes a house breaker to kick out.

Bad things such as shorted speaker cables even right on the back panel of the amp are just going to happen, So what makes more sense - make the amp fail safely, short term and auto-resettably, or let the whole amp fry and need repair or the trash can, or build a power amp so that when you short it out, the short itself goes up in flames?

Factor in that short circuit and low impedance load protection for power amps literally costs pennies. Two small transistors and maybe 4 low power resistors per channel.

Quote:
Either get a amp (not a Krell) that can drive a 1 or 2 ohm loads ok, or get speakers that are easier to drive.

In this case the speakers are a ludicrous load. They are artifacts of a far more naive time. Nobody in their right mind would bring such a speaker to market these days.
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