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Please Bring back CRT TV's Into the Production line Again! - Page 8

post #211 of 250
You're welcome.

I'll only spend a very limited amount of money for a few specific models and it better be in great shape as they're just too darn heavy to deal with. biggrin.gif
post #212 of 250
Originally Posted by weekendtoy View Post

You CRT guys crack me up. Thanks for the laughs.

PS I still own and use a 34inch HDCRT

I'd happily donate my eyes if I could buy a modern CRT

.....oh wait..
post #213 of 250
Originally Posted by mrslig100 View Post

That was entirely down to my unrevised posting, sorry about that.
Im well aware of the difference between flatness and thinness in CRT's
Well lets face it that:

Is most definatly a lot thinner than that:

And when I said nothing about the thinness of a CRT, it has no place in a reply to my post. I repeat what I said earlier: flat tube face televisions and monitors are almost always much heavier than curved ones. I have moved 36 inch curved CRT televisions by myself and had no problem. (I am not a big guy, either.) A flat tube television that is only 32"? I have to call a buddy to come help me lift it or it is staying put. Flat-faced tubes simply have heavier, thicker, tougher frames in general, and they have these because the tube face is flat.
I assure you (well "WAY" beyond my have been a slight exaggeration) but I have easily got mine up to 2048x1536

You do not seem to understand that you are preaching to the choir here. I own two widescreen Sony tubes, the FW900, and an hp-branded one. I am well aware of the resolutions they can achieve. But you said:
Back to my W900 that goes beyond 1080p so theirs no reason that HD-CRT TV's could be marketed.

Read that again and feel the dissonance.

There are plenty of reasons that an HDTV CRT cannot be marketed. For starters, they were marketed, and the costs associated with them drove them out of the market when put aside the margins and lesser costs of their competitors. When you have a TV that is two feet deep at a minimum, you are going to be more limited in the number of the things that you can move compared to the TV that is barely two inches. When one person can move a box with a TV in it, you are going to get more rolling than the one that two non-girly men have to lift to move from and to any location. All of these things ratchet up the cost. Heavier boxes of TVs with fewer TVs moving in any van, truck, airplane, warehouse, forklift or whatever means fewer televisions sold, more money spent to pay more people just to move them--c'mon man.
And if there's anything my old compaq 1280x1024 monitor taught me its that it can go ever higher!
I would like to go to 2560×1600 to fit the 16:10 screen but CCC wont let me :P

Well, serves you right for going AMD, choose wiser next time. wink.gif
Im using the FW900 driver however, as im told its better for higher resolutions.

I may be a little biased, but that driver is probably a lot better with the FW900. biggrin.gif
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

You lost at "non widescreen"

Lost what, exactly? Your approval? Do you really think I'm trying to get it from you?
why would you consider a 4:3 set nowadays?

Lots of reasons. If you need me to list them all for you, there is a handicap at work somewhere that isn't quite right.
They've gone the way of the dodo.

Meaning, what exactly? If you mean they aren't normally made anymore, well no **** Sherlock. If you mean that there are no 4:3 materials to view, you're el mondo wrongo. If you mean that every 4:3 screen is suddenly non-fuctional, please explain it to the many sets that are still working continually.
Also regarding frame rate, well unless your TV supports 24hz, or a multiple thereof, you will get either 3:2 pulldown or interpolation.

Only for film. I'd rather go pulldown with NTSC than the hiccup that PAL drops in, this is a really annoying tick.
Only solution is natively shot in 50hz for PAL TV's, and 60hz for NTSC TV's.

Of which there is plenty, and when viewing them comparatively, there are plenty of reasons to prefer NTSC.
I agree with 50hz flicker causes eye strain. Also for consoles, the imports were better as they ran at 60fps/60hz. As for PAL & NTSC colour, I think user level, PAL offered better colour balance. Doesn't it have higher video bandwidth?

Due to variances in vacuum tubes used in a given set, NTSC colourburst waveforms have a tendency to shift along different broadcast waves (i.e. channels), which can result in varying colours from channel to channel unless changes are made at the set (a tint control diode). PAL stands for Phase Alternate Line, and by this it means, the colourburst signal is reversed; this alternating reversal has an aftereffect of stabilizing the colourburst wave. But this has not been a problem since transistors and other solid state materials have taken the place of vacuum tubes, so to harp on this aspect of NTSC is about 50 years out of date.
Poor 3:2 conversation is another factor. Or if you want PAL material on NTSC sets conversion process (at least UK sets support Japanese and American NTSC systems, but American sets do not support PAL)

You're saying this like there are no tick issues with 50Hz, speeding up the broadcast just to insert another frame results in some really annoying sound and sync issues that are very annoying (and obvious) to see. At any rate, I use Panasonic plasma monitors that support all broadcast types. I just also have the common sense to minimize my headaches and use NTSC wherever possible.
As for PAL & NTSC resolution the differences are noticeable, I imported region 1 DVD's and whenever I tried the region 2 version the improvement was noticeable. Also when using S-video and comparing 480i and 576i, especially from a computer. 90 lines of resolution is high percentage of the resolution. Not exactly comparing 1000 versus 1100

With DVD resolutions, and DVD-era broadcasts (sub-HD) you are dealing with overscan enough to really render this difference meaningless, nevermind the uptick that creates the annoying sound/sync from film.
Interlaced artefacts are quite distracting, for example tweed jackets, and stadium stands. Jaggies, as well. Because NTSC is lower resolution these are more noticeable. Try playing 1080i, interlaced artefacts are still there, but because of the higher resolution you no longer see jaggies.

Interlacing is inevitable on any interlaced broadcast standard. If you are watching TV at sub-HD resolutions, you pretty much have to resign yourself to viewing the occasional hatching artifact--PAL included. This does not bother me as much as a great deal many other issues that any standard broadcast can bring.
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

I'd happily donate my eyes if I could buy a modern CRT

.....oh wait..

Please, don't let that stop you.
post #214 of 250
The only reason that you get CRT TVs in India even now is because of the fact that the largest CRT producer Videocon's presence there and they still have some stock unsold. Though majority of people are switching to flat TVs, they are buying it by exchanging the old CRT TVs to get discounts on new Flat Panel TVs. The exchanged CRTs then are shipped to rural areas of the country where those people can buy a refurbished CRT for as less as $20. Also its not uncommon to find homes with TVs dating back to 1960's. Dynora, Salora are few of the oldest brands, with lot of antique value.
post #215 of 250

Interesting post benjamin Welcome to AVS BTW . I'm a happy LCD/LED and Plasma owner myself. I have owned Sony HD FD Trinitron and Sharp HD CRT also .
They were good then but that was then and now is now . Ofc it won't be long we (at least most of us anyway ) will all be wanting OLED .

Interesting things about India CRT TV's there I would have otherwise never known. Are you from the area and if so how is your local internet bandwidth and HDTV programming+ availability?? Lot of high tech going on there in some areas I imagine especially aviation and defense .
Is satellite (small home dish like Direct TV ) use common or Cable or OTA ? .

US was slow to adapt HDTV especially when you consider US version at least was being developed in the 1980's and finalised with ATSC standard in 1996 it took a lot of impetus and some often delayed legislation from the government to finally make happen as the vested interests were not in any hurry , but I'm glad it is finally here. US is way behind the curve with regards to residential internet bandwidth a lot of ancient legacy telco
pots lines , copper DSL and some dial up (incredibly ) still in use.
Edited by tubetwister - 9/20/13 at 1:32pm
post #216 of 250
So, OLED won't even be as good as CRT?
post #217 of 250
Originally Posted by TeddyRuck View Post

So, OLED won't even be as good as CRT?

FWIHR they are pretty good
here is consumer reports opinion shared by many other publications ,web sites and industry professionals just FYI
judging by our tests of the Samsung KN55S9C. It's arguably the best all-around TV we've ever tested, with the highest overall picture-quality scores and no major shortcomings—except, perhaps, its steep $9,000 price. Still, that's much less than the $13,500 price disclosed when it was introduced earlier in Korea, and significantly below the current $15,000 retail price tag of LG's comparably sized 55EA9800 set, which we're hoping to test shortly.

Have you all got flat panel LCD/LED and Plasma TV's over there yet ? Been here for a good while they will make you throw rocks at the old CRT's we used to have biggrin.gif
post #218 of 250
Some of the criticism of CRT here is overblown. Inch per inch, the high end Sony CRTs would still put many flat panels to shame, especially LCD based ones.

However, I would agree, they're just too small.

(That said, there's still no true replacement for my GDM-F520 as a general purpose computer monitor. Sony's OLED screens are the closest, but I'm very weary of the burn-in issue...)
post #219 of 250
I don't even know why they bother coming here to criticize although the subject line of this thread is a bit much. biggrin.gif
I know I won't be throwing any rocks at my CRTs.
post #220 of 250
Saw this at C net
"Big problems with F520"
4 stars
January 12, 2005

I've had to change F520's 3 times, 1st time because of bluriness, 2nd time because of dead pixel, 3rd time because it just died, and now I have one that i wish i could change because the ghosting is more than 2.5cm/1.0 inch but I just can't because I'm ve

and this
It's really a shame for this monitor, because i know it had the potential and the technology to be the best monitor on earth if it wasn't for the sony's crap engineers in which i blame all the faults and the things that went wrong with this monitor.

Not to mention the Sony Trinitron monitor I had gave it up shortly after the warranty expired ,ended up with a greenish tint and something with the aperture grille .
Anyway I replaced it with a Digital Research monitor that' one lasted for years was still working fine when I changed to bigger LCD monitor.in 2005

The SONY had had a good picture to be sure but you had fiddle with it once in a while geometry stuff would drift same thing with the Digital research
OTOH this Acer IPS panel is 3 yrs in no problems , the first LCD viewsonic 2004 monitor is still in daily use and working like new that's 8 yrs now . I have another Acer on another box that's 2 yrs old .

OTOH my first Sony Trinitron TV was 14 yrs trouble free and the other HD FD trinitron or Wega was 10 or 11 yrs so no complaints there good picture also just not as good or as big as my current plasma .and the Toshiba LED ain't bad either .
Probably can't hurt an FD trinitron with a rock anyway maybe not even a handgun or most handguns anyway those things have some thick glass
and took 3 grown men to move it! There was nothing better back then or even after for a while !
I liked both of the TVs when I had them . Hey ....I can kidd around about Trinitrons I had 3 of them! Now if you never had one thats different biggrin.gif
Edited by tubetwister - 9/23/13 at 8:00pm
post #221 of 250
If you have a working GDM-F520 and can live with the smaller size, it's still arguably the finest computer display ever made. And that's almost 12 years after its introduction, which is sad...

LCD monitors are ok...especially for documents, programming, etc...actually prefer them in an office environment. However, I've always gone back to either a GDM-F520 or a GDM-FW900 eventually for my enthusiast machine. I want depth to my picture and LCD with its shallow dynamic range, poor blacks, and uniformity issues, just doesn't have it...

Only one LCD exception in my experience...the original 40" local dimming Samsung...a borderline computer monitor at 1080P and at that big size, but it had the depth. I returned it, because it had some issues and I thought something smaller and better would be sure to follow, but as was typical (e.g., SED, OLED so far for computer use) I was mistaken...what followed was local dimmers that were better, but bigger and even less suited as a computer monitor...and then that cheaper edge lit tech retreat. Oh well...maybe that original Samsung was the one that got away... smile.gif
post #222 of 250
NO I did not have the GDM-F520 in the article it was a Sony I picked up at Staples maybe 1996 1997 I couldn't tell you the model number it had a good picture when it worked
I believe something went wrong with the arpature grill or something at least that is what i was told aside from the yellowish green tint you could see a line in it would not go away .
Computer repair shop said it would need a CRT and was a known problem so I wasn't even going there I don't even know if you could get one for it then so it got recycled never had the GDM-F520 so I can not say anything about that one I don't care to have another boat anchor on my desk had them for years TV's too they were OK back then but I'm good with the stuff I have now.whatever floats your boat . I like 1959 Jaguar XK 150 also just not for a daily driver a 2013 Ford focus ST can out run it and out handle it.
I don't have either one but instead a late model GMC pickup that is faster has more horsepower and rides and handles much better than the 65 Impala super sport I had 1969. That night have been worth keeping .......... in storage though and not a daily driver.

Edited by tubetwister - 9/23/13 at 11:35pm
post #223 of 250
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

You are welcome to stay with your ~1998 CRT technology if you wish but the majority here at AVS and everywhere else do not share your preferences and you will not be able to convince very many as lots of folks here have had both technologies .
As for your argument that Panels are cheaper to produce that may be true but keep in mind the startup costs for a Panel fab can exceed
$4BN You have to sell a lot of panels to cover that. Not to mention the unsustainable environmental impact of continued CRT production ,
supply chain issues and continued production infrastructure and plant maintenance so there are indeed factors other than cost to consider.

One could have always argued that 480i black and white TV was cheaper than color in the 1950's,1960's I'm sure many did
if that argument had prevailed or even later that 480i sets were cheaper than 1080i sets what would we be watching today?

The lower production costs for LCD/LED not only benefits the producer but the consumers as well.especially that larger panels are available now The marketplace has chosen as it always does .
My Samsung 3079 is certainly not pre-1998 technology, the 1080i PQ is darned impressive and in terms of a 30" display, this 135-lb CRT still looks much better than typical entry-level LCD/LED sets in that size category.

You are fundamentally right that LCD/LED sets enjoy lower production costs and while some of us prefer the CRTs. Plasma displays tend to offer much of the richness of CRT HD sets. You are also right that the enviromental impact of CRT production, supply chain issues and so forth are much of why the marketplace has "moved on". When my Sammy 3079 expires, I am likely to embrace the newer technology though I will miss some aspects of the CRT PQ as well as the superb sound quality of my CRT's integrated speakers and audio.
post #224 of 250
My Samsung 3079 is certainly not pre-1998 technology, the 1080i PQ is darned impressive and in terms of a 30" display, this 135-lb CRT still looks much better than typical entry-level LCD/LED sets in that size category.

Sony's patent on the Trinitron display ran out in 1996, after 20 years. After the expiration of Sony's Trinitron patent, manufacturers like Mitsubishi were free to use the Trinitron design for their own product line without license from Sony although they could not use the Trinitron name. For example, Mitsubishi's are called Diamondtron .

Sony responded with the FD Trinitron,(flat tube) which used computer controlled feedback systems to ensure sharp focus across a flat screen. Initially introduced on their 27, 32 and 36 inch models in 1998, the new tubes were offered in a variety of resolutions for different uses. The basic WEGA models supported normal 480i signals, but a larger version offered 16:9 aspect ratios. The technology was quickly applied to the entire Trinitron range, from 13 to 36 inch. -wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitron#Trinitron

The reason I use 1998 technology example is the Sony HD FD Trinitron CRT was the Zenith of CRT technology, Samsung, Mitsubishi ,RCA or Toshiba notwithstanding the Sony HD FD trinitron was the best of the best CRT technology (Just ask someone that owned one .... me for instance) and broadcast professionals ofc. it was mostly fully developed by 1998

I enjoyed mine for many years they were expensive quality sets . The newer HD flat panels are quite good big improvements even at entry level
last couple of years . Not saying HD CRT can not make a good picture, it can it's just that things are changing and Since I owned 2 Sony TV's one being an HD FD Trinitron ,and one Sharp flat tube HD CRT and one Sony std black. trinitron so I can kidd around about CRT
. Now if you never owned an HD CRT that might be different!biggrin.gif

.I have both LED/LCD and Plasma now ( 2012 sets ) and a 2009 CCFL /LCD also) they both have their own advantages probably OLED will eventually or already is closest to perfect of all displays .

Problem with the Samsung 3079 and other slimline type thinner CRT's is they had geometry and control issues common to all thinner CRT's due to physical limitations of CRT technology that were not as evident in thicker bulky Sony FD trinitron,despite being able to produce a very good picture . My 36" HD FD Sony weighed well over 200lbs. However I'm glad yours is working well for you enjoy it while you can...
Edited by tubetwister - 9/25/13 at 7:53pm
post #225 of 250
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

reply,The reason I use 1998 technology example is the Sony HD FD Trinitron CRT was the Zenith of CRT technology, Samsung, Mitsubishi ,RCA or Toshiba notwithstanding the Sony HD FD trinitron was the best of the best CRT technology (Just ask someone that owned one .... me for instance) and broadcast professionals ofc. it was mostly fully developed by 1998.

I enjoyed mine for many years they were expensive quality sets . The newer HD flat panels are quite good big improvements even at entry level last couple of years . Not saying HD CRT can not make a good picture, it can it's just that things are changing and Since I owned 2 Sony TV's one being an HD FD Trinitron ,and one Sharp flat tube HD CRT and one Sony std black. trinitron so I can kidd around about CRT . Now if you never owned an HD CRT that might be different!: D I have both LED/LCD and Plasma now ( 2012 sets ) and a 2009 CCFL /LCD also) they both have their own advantages probably OLED will eventually or already is closest to perfect of all displays.

Problem with the Samsung 3079 and other slimline type thinner CRT's is they had geometry and control issues common to all thinner CRT's due to physical limitations of CRT technology that were not as evident in thicker bulky Sony FD trinitron,despite being able to produce a very good picture . My 36" HD FD Sony weighed well over 200lbs. However I'm glad yours is working well for you enjoy it while you can...
I agree with you that the Samsung "Slim-Fit" CRTs such as my 3079 do exhibit display issues that you referenced. When we have a television installed in our own home and we generally "like" it, as humans we tend to mentally "adjust" to those flaws and tend to overlook these issues.

I had a friend over yesterday who is a full-time A/V system installer. He convinced me that although I'm kinda fond of that 135-pound 3079 (which weighs less than the Sony HD FD Trinitrons you mentioned), newer sets have major advantages.

Having read through this thread, I'm becoming more convinced that newer displays may well be an overall improvement. The remaining argument in favor of CRTs is that, after being perfected over several decades, most CRTs have very long life spans and very good reliability, and the information as to long-term reliability of LCD, LED, Plasma and OLED displays is incomplete. Obviously, there are a lot of "the sky is falling" conspiracy theorists, and I want to avoid falling into that trap.

In short, I've changed my mind.

I'm in the process of selling a condo. After it sells and the money is in the bank, I may go ahead and purchase a newer display (not a CRT). Anyone in the Greater Seattle area who is craving a Samsung 3079 in working condition may get a fabulous deal....
post #226 of 250
seatacboy wrote

When we have a television installed in our own home and we generally "like" it, as humans we tend to mentally "adjust" to those flaws and tend to overlook these issues.

ha ha ha funny you mention we also do that with wives,girlfriends and also how they cook (sometimes), ex wives (never) kids ,family (but not mother in law ) and lots of things including ourselves biggrin.gif
post #227 of 250
Well, serves you right for going AMD, choose wiser next time.
You don't mean....
Nvidea mad.gif
Back when I got the card,
I was running a 1280x1024 unbranded flatscreen panel :P
post #228 of 250
Originally Posted by seatacboy View Post

When we have a television installed in our own home and we generally "like" it, as humans we tend to mentally "adjust" to those flaws and tend to overlook these issues.

Good point. My Panny widescreen CRT has one off-color corner (lower left, possibly from being banged around) which bugged me at first but I hardly notice it anymore unless I'm really trying; I also improved it with strategically placed old CRT magnets on the cabinet. My PC monitor anti-glare film has a small hole in it upper right which bugged the heck out of me at first but not anymore.

Funny one tubetwister! biggrin.gif
post #229 of 250
Oled still have some motion blur...and loses blue color after 1.500 hours.......Crt tv and Crt pc monitor "Are" the technology
post #230 of 250
Yes open back up the zenith pland in Chicago Illinois on Austin ave in Chicago . I my self like the zenith televisions , but if I cant find zenith than sony Trinitron will do . I like the crt televisions and would like them back in the stores . We haveknow American made televisions anymore Just that cheapo Chinese televisions that break after three years or right after the warranty has expired . The RCA ,Zenith from the 1970's and some of the 1980,s televisions are the best made I used to own a admiral television when I was a teenager and my father toss it in the alley it still worked fine . He didn't like to plug it in he thought it smelled bad and tossed it . It had a good picture and the sound was very good . The Japanese televisions couldn't match zenith or RCA FOR sound ,much better the American made sets where .When the Japanese flooded the market with televisions and put the American companies out of business because they couldn't compete with when as in price wise . they when under . Zenith was the last set made in the Chicago plant . I was to work there back in the 1980's if business was better , but it wasn't they folded . But now you can thank LG AKA GOLDSTAR electronics for that . All they wanted is zenith HDTV patent that would of saved zenith . where were the American politicians then I wonder . Now you see foreign banks and companies like G.M and capital one and bank of America capital one being bailed out with hard American tax payers money .I Don't like one bit what the American politicians are doing to this country now . So yes I would like to see CRT set back on the market , My the way They had or have a CRT Plastic picture tube that would not melt if got hot too and is real light as well . 90 0/0 less the weight as a glass one . I think zenith was the first to make a plastic picture tube .
post #231 of 250

With all due respect let me jog your memory here if I may , First off I don't want to discuss CRT VS PLASMA ,CCFL /LCD , LED /LCD , OLED or otherwise that's and old debate CRT's aren't coming back anyway so what is the point . I've owned good examples of every one except OLED . each has or had at one time their relative attributes . Looks Like Plasma may not be around much longer either market forces will always prevail that's just business just like what happened to CRT If you all want to hang on to your CRT's or otherwise prefer them for whatever reasons that's fine.

I Hate to tell you but the old american tube TV's and some of the solid state sets weren't that reliable by today's standards.neither were some foreign sets I was there I worked on some also .I worked for a Magnavox dealer for a while doing bench work and occasional installs and service calls
we took in broken Zeniths occasionally as well replaced some with new Magnavox sets as well .I'm sure the local Zenith dealer did the same likewise replacing
Magnavox sets with Zeniths .We both bought proprietary parts from one another all the shops knew each other then .

Now if they could just get TV's as reliable as PC's I have one that's been on 24/7 for 3yrs now for the most part another for 2 yrs on 14 hrs a day making a living in the studio no sleep modes either I had another one on 24/7 for 5 yrs . along with an old always on p4 running cycles for charity box that one has had one hdd ,fan and PSU in 11years. the 3 yr old is showing hdd smart warnings when you re boot fie system is OK and otherwise working fine though so HDD might be happening pretty soon soon
if it develops to many bad sectors. I've got another Linux drive in it so it can keep going in any event if the windows drive fails until I can replace it.

The RCA,Zenith and Magnavox sets were fairly comprable in most respects feature and reliability wise better than the others except for the occasional bad circuit design /chassis and they all had them now and then !
If anyone would have had a slight technological advantage then it would have certainly been RCA given the size of their R & D budgets back then they owned the market until the mid to later 60's and even for quite some time after that.until the eventual sale to Thomson S. A .

You wouldent want to spend 30 or 40 yrs working on a television production line anyway jusk ask the kids working at Foxconn
should you still have any doubts about that.

The B/W family sets I grew up with as a kid with were notoriously unreliable first an RCA followed by a Stromberg Carlson then a Packard bell Parent's were on a first name basis with the local repair shop
Horizontal and vertical stability problems were common on all the old B/W sets quite frequently nobody could make reliable sweep circuits in consumer gear then including Zenith.

In 1963 my parents got a monster Curtis Mathes color roundie stereo TV combo it had an RCA CTC 12 chassis or clone chassis and tube in it ofc the stereo part outlasted the TV part it required frequent repairs and 1 CRT as well . . it was eventually replaced by a Magnavox combo in 72 I think

My last American made sets were an RCA 21" color roundie then a 1971 Magnavox 25"rect replaced by n 1979 Magnavox 25"

The circuit boards in the RCA roundie finally deteriorated and crumbled to the point of being irreparable console, not an uncommon problem on a lot of sets then.

8 yrs later the first Magnavox died a natural death with a couple of not inexpensive repairs in it's lifetime that was replaced

The ft Wayne Indiana made 1979 Magnavox set's digital Tuner went south just out of warranty as did the CRT red gun shortly after not quite 3 yrs of ownership it was a Sylvania black matrix tube .
fixed those items about a year and a half later the high voltage module went amok and sent KV voltage to the deflection yoke and welded the neck off the back of the CRT !

Next set was a Toshiba 10 yrs trouble free . After that I bought a new Sony 27" Trinitron the ubiquitos black table set they made by the millions Then I bought a 36" Sony HD FD Trinitron and put the 27" in the home office and later the bedroom after I put a flat panel in the office.

Sony # 1 was still working fine after 14 yrs when I gave it way , Sony # 2 was also working fine after ~ 10 yrs when I gave that one away .

I have a Sammy large plasma and a Toshiba LED /LCD both 2012 models ,hopefully they will do as well as the Sony's and Toshiba I had . If I had to pick which one would last longer I would put my money on the Toshiba though. .Sammie's haven't exactly had stellar reliability records over the years but short of a panel or otherwise cost prohibitive part I can fix it. if need be .

I'm sure some remember the famous Zenith hand wired advertisements they stayed with hand wiring longer than most because they simply did not have the money to change over the plants to printed circuit production processes .
legacy production costs even further reduced their cash reserves had absolutely nothing to do with quality. By that time reliable epoxy coated PC boards were available.
they changed over when Solid state manufacturing processes made that required .

Their sets were as good as any better than most but not remarkably better than RCA or Magnavox . Hang on to your memories if you want . I'll take a modern set any day
you don't have to fiddle with the color either once you set it even the pre sets are not half bad now.

Zenith did not completely patent or invent HDTV in it's entirety or the current ATSC standard (another long held myth) they did make some important contributions. The work was was done by the Digital HDTV Grand Alliance,a group of television, electronic equipment, communications companies consisting of AT&T Bell Labs, General Instrument, Philips, Sarnoff (RCA) , Thomson, Zenith and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. -further the alliance agreed to make any relevant patents that they owned available either free of charge or on a reasonable, nondiscriminatory basis -wikipedia-
Europe and Asia also had their own systems .

Lots of the 1930's and 1940's Zenith Radios were great products ,not EH Scotts or Silver Mcmurdo's (none were) but better than most to be sure even the Transoceanic portables were good up until they quit production.
Not to say Zenith didn't make good TV sets just that they were fairly even with the other majors in most respects as far as the TV's went.

You coulden't buy a 32" 1080p flat panel TV or any 32" TV for $250.00 or less back then or even 30 yr later but you could spend that replacing a fly back xformer and a CRT easily .

I think reliability in general has and will probably improve since the electrolytic chemical formulations were changed in electronic circuit electrolytic capacitors in ~2010 or so that was causing so many early failures.manufacturing processes and tolerances have improved immeasurably since then in all respects .

Unfortunate in some respects for some ,fortunate for others that Geo political and technological change has altered the landscape in so many ways but it is what it is.

I have some fond memories of those times especially the cars I had (unreliable and unsafe as they were as compared to what I'm driving today ) they wer fun though.

I don't have any fond memories of reliable consumer electronics then most of it wasn't reliable and the mean time to failure would simply be unacceptable today.
same with the cars back then a 10 yr old 100K car was done and then some many before that , again it is what it is. Like Walter Cronkite used to say "That's the way it was"

best regards
Edited by tubetwister - 10/17/13 at 2:34am
post #232 of 250

I see your point , But wouldn't you want a television set still made in America For Americas by Americans . I know I would not one is currently made in the usa No one can tell me it cost to must to manufacture it in the usa . That's hogwash if you ask me . The people are hear and ready to work on it and will . But I see your point , but I still like the tube television better I really can stand wall mount televisions where's the style in that at least with older style televisions you have piece future in your living room . but if the people want that style of television in there house that's up to them . I like seeing something like my television I own a Sony KV-40XBR800 The sound and picture blows away any television in the store now . How do I know this well I was at bestbuy and would of bought a plasma I don't have a problem spending the money , but I didn't like the picture quality or sound from them . So there's that also . But for some reason if I HD CRT televisions come back in the stores I will be the first in line to by on . Oh you know about the plastic CRT tube right , well you should of it would of made the sets real light .
post #233 of 250
Well you can get you a Moto X smartphone made right here in Fort Worth, Texas! wink.gif
post #234 of 250

LCD is a subtractive system there where CRT, laser or even plasma works cumulative.

With LCD you you have a 100% white light source and colors are taken away (substractive) to produce a picture while the other systems just produce the light that's necessary to enlighten a picture.

That's why LCD will always be a system of compromise and thus less good.

post #235 of 250

I see your point , But wouldn't you want a television set still made in America For Americas by Americans .

Sure doubtful we have the manufacturing skills any more likely not . Certainly the supply chain infrastructure does not exist the best we could hope for is a few assy . plants.
The people are hear and ready to work on it and will

Again (see above)
further any TV manufacturing jobs created here would likely utilize low paid workers without benefits probably contract workers for the established Asian brands subcontractors we don't have any US brands anymore.

Element is assembling some TV's from Chinese knock down kits in US as are Sceptre and Seiki in US from Chinese knock down kits, The Sceptre and Seiki kits are made by TongFang global, which is a northern Chinese based manufacturer. .both are marketed in us by southern electronics .They have assy.
plants in Oxnard ,Ca and Neveda assy is hardly the same as manufacturing .

but I still like the tube television better

That's fine I'm sure it makes a good picture, FD HD Trinitrons never had trouble doing that mine didn't .

OTOH I like the bigger plasma screen though .and you can hang it on a wall if you like try that with a 40" FD Trinitron !
I like that my 32" LED easily fits on an ordinary bookcase in the bedroom, makes a decent bright picture , is only maybe 3" thick and weighs only 18 lbs as opposed
to an ~ 180 LB 34" maybe 25" deep flat glass tube FD Trinitron what's not to like?

style of television
thats subjective everyone likes different things that's fine
Edited by tubetwister - 10/18/13 at 7:35pm
post #236 of 250
LCD is a subtractive system there where CRT, laser or even plasma works cumulative.
works cumulative
I'm sure you meant emissive in the case of plasma and more accurately passive in respects to LCD . all progressive displays are cumulative by nature
Otoh one could argue that alternating frame interlaced electron scanning CRT displays are subtractive by nature but at the same time emissive certainly the internal shadow masks or wire fine wire grids by necessity are subtractive .

All three have strengths and weaknesses market forces are the deciding factor and it looks like plasma is approaching EOL also CRT had a long run for over 65 yrs but it has already passed . OLED looms on the horizon now .
Edited by tubetwister - 10/18/13 at 7:49pm
post #237 of 250
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

Lol, this is hilarious, All right now that i'm done rolling on the floor laughing biggrin.gif This thread clearly has some very nostalgic people in it, but you have to realize your plans for 4:3 crt redomination are just nostalgic not practical.
The image quality on modern flat panels has caught up for the most part with even the best full hd crt's (I'm typing this on a 51 inch hd crt rear pro) noone wants to pay serious cash for hd crt's anymore let alone 4:3 curved tube dinosaurs biggrin.gif.

You can get flat panels that hit nearly as deep in the blacks, can hold their black better with bigger portions of the screen lit for better static contrast, provide a higher resolution than even hd crt's, draw less power etc etc.

You can even do most of that and more on the cheap (600-800$) and buy a plasma which currently have life expectancies of 30 years (far from the original plasmas which burnt up in a few years).

If you can think of 1 legitimate reason why we should start production of crt's again i'm all ears, otherwise thanks for brightning my day with a good laugh biggrin.gif

EDIT: I should say i'm a big crt fan myself, and i love my 51" beast with all the tweaks and time i've put into it, but the majority of people don't know any of the benefits of crts, theres just no way you could convince even 3-4 % of the population that they should trade in their flat panels for something that can get slightly deeper on a black screen, or can do slightly better with gradation, especially with all the work that has to go into them to keep them going for even 10 years. I see directview tubes dying left and right, most of them are around 10 years old, we have to let them go and hope to god oled makes it to the mainstream. It has potential that sed and crt never had, it can do everything they did while also being thin, drawing little power and being very cost effective once the production line gets rolling.

On what planet do Plasma TVs last 30 years????????? mad.gif I just trashed a ~$2,500+ ~7 year old 50" Toshiba plasma that had the screen go out ~ 2 months ago mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif .....

On the flip side of that I am watching right now a SD 25" NEC monitor that is about turn 30 years old! It cost about the same $2,500 with a stand, external speakers & a NEC superbeta recorder in spring of 1984 new.....I plan to keep this thing going as long feasibly possible. It was on 24/7 for 20+ years and is still working like a champ.

I also have a heavily used 25" Zenith that is now approaching 35 years old that still works perfectly, never once had a failure.

I had a 32" Flat screen SD Sony CRT that just died last year, it was a 1996 model that was on pretty much 24/7 from spring on 96 til winter of 2010. Now this thing weighed a ton, ~150+lbs, with all of the weight in the screen. The thing even had a belt on the back connected by buckle to the back of the stand to prevent the weighted front from toppling it over. After it failed it was dropped a couple of inches off of the floor while moving it destroying the case making repairing it impossible or I would still be using it.

Something I left out, the Plasma was only on when I was in front of it so only had what I would consider a fraction of the hours on it that should have been it's useful lifespan !

WT!, a low hour use compared to every other tv I have owned $2,500+ plasma TV that now is trash 6 years after purchased it????? I feel the short life my plasma tv gave me for what it cost me in 2007 to be criminal.....!!!!!...And what I have found short lifespans are not uncommon for plasma tvs of all makes....

Give me a flat screen LCD, LED-LCD or OLED that can give that kind of service and then we can talk.....Until then CRTs are still the best longest lived technology in my book.....
Edited by dieselrat - 10/27/13 at 9:39pm
post #238 of 250
Originally Posted by neccrttv View Post

Exactly. Sadly.... we shall never see again good quality crt's since no company will ever again be willing to make a close to perfect CRT like Mitsubishi and Nec did.

Most people nowadays don't care however better a tech is compared to another. Most people just prefer having a big screen even if it has clear disadvantages. Plasma tech is very very good these days and CRT's are just so costly and hard to manufacture that nobody bothers with them.

The only companies interested would be ones who make arcades, etc. Only there would it be worth it.

I for myself, cannot endure LCD, neither can my wife. Causes motion sickness, headaches and red eyes every time we watch one for more than 2-3 hours (and lol its not 240hz silly advertising that will change the fault of the tech.)
Plasma would be the only way to go... but when you are used to watch a 36" from 4-5 feet... you can't stand the digital noise, etc etc from plasmas and lcd's at that distance. (especially when most plasmas are 42'' up)

The way I have come up with dealing with the really crappy way the analog signal looks on my big LED-LCD picture, compared to the CRTs is by sitting 15-20 ft or farther away from it on the other side of the room!
post #239 of 250
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

People still watching 480i anymore ? More importantly why would they?

Because I have control over what I can record & watch off my HDD-DVD recorder. I have a new 58" LED-LCD that I watch mostly only upscaled 480i recordings. And I am perfectly ok with that! In fact I just purchased a new Panny HDD-DVD recorder so I can continue to do this well into the future.

Also ALL of the local over the air, cable, SAT, ect...TV is broadcasted in native either 1080i or 720p maximum, with the majority of over the air broadcast channels today still only using 480i. In the city I am in there are 10 channels in true HD( 4 in 720p & 6 in 1080i )and 36 in 480i....

While the current HD(720p max over the air) does look a little clearer, it's really not so much better than a upscaled 480i signal. And I am unwilling to give up my ability/right to record what I want to watch when I want.

Give me the ability to do that with a stand alone off air or HD input equipped HDD-Blu-ray recorder then we can talk!

But short of that you can keep the current HDTV........
I owned both a Sony Trinitron and an FD Trinitron so I know what they can do .
They hande 480i pretty well save for scan lines on 32" and up.
still for ancient Never The Same Color Twice signals they were pretty good that was then. Line doubling helped bit they still dithered just like flat panel can with 480i/480p If all you watch is 480i sub channels then 480i set is for you but what about the rest of the channels ?

I watch over the air hd but I record that onto a HDD-DVD recorder that upconverts to 1080p. That is mainly because today there is no ATSC equipped HDD-Blu-Ray recorder on the market. And at the distance I sit from the tv the difference in picture is really not that noticeable.
It is true flat panels usually aren't that good on 480i better quality sets
tend to handle 480i better . I try not to watch 480i when I have 1080p sets
as for Movies Netflix HD is OK once you go flat panel HD you never go back
(usually any way)
Footbal good in HD

Good for you but there are still plenty of us that prefer the ability to watch upconverted 480i recordings. Also all of the over the air channels may be digital but there are still plenty of programs transmitted in 480i.
OTA,+ Sat/Cable channels have a lot of older movies re scanned by the content delivery partners into HD now they can look very good.
35mm film is naturally very high resolution so it looks good re scanned.
You start watching some of that on a decent flat panel you will throw rocks at your 480i .

OTA Sub channels usually have very poor quality
because of low bandwidth . OK for B/W Twilight Zone re runs though !

The majority of over the air channels today transmit in digital 480i. In fact in my city there are 10 over the air primary channels that transmit in higher resolution, 4 in 720p & 6 in 1080i. But there are ~3 times that many that still transmit in 480i, ~36 channels that I can pick up that transmit digitally in the old 480i format!
Only 1080i max ? On a good 4K set Sony ,Sammy ,etc Decently upscaled 1080p/1080i to 4k looks pretty good even better than native 1080p
Like it or not 4K is the future no need to rush into it though .1080i/p is fine for a good while yet but it will eventually come to the mainstream down from the premium market just like 1080p did 1080p will be the budget sets of the future like 720p is today They have some 8K in Japan already ,.

OTA 1080i /720p or Sat/cable Hd also on a decent flat panel
blows 480i/480p crt away

Over the air in the US today there is no native 1080p! Today 720p is the maximum transmitted native over the air network signal available. And most of the over the air HDTV is transmitted in 1080i maximum.

And to respond to your quoted statement above, not when they are displaying the still transmitted today digitally widely used 480i over the air.!.

I have yet to see a flat panel, LCD, Plasma, or LED-LCD that a 480i signal doesn't look like garbage if you are closer than 10 ft. While You can be inches away from a good CRT and that signal is as clear as the 720p or1080i picture on the best of the current offerings. It does not have the resolution but the picture is just as clear & defined within the ability of the resolution.
I upscale DVD's to 1080p with PS3 on one set and Dedicated PC HD video card on another set they look much better than quality Sony ES DVD SACD player from 2005 .. I no longer use DVD player just PS3 or PC ODD.

Same can be done with BD player. Ofc you need a set that can accept
1080p . Even decent 720p sets especially plasma can play almost anything better than any 480i consumer set .

That is just not true! The currently today widely still digitally transmitted 480i signal looks a lot clearer when fed to a top of the line recent CRT.

For over the air today 1080p is useless since not one station I have ever picked up transmitted in 1080p. 3D is even more of a useless feature with no one today transmitting in 3D. And with almost no available for playback material in 3D even TV makers are no longer pushing it as a option on new tvs.

And on the coming 4k resolutions, that will be pretty useless for watching tv for some time to come. No stations have any plans to upgrade to even 1080p much less to 4k. So the 4k resolution will be nothing more than a novelty for the foreseeable future. The same as the current 3D TVs are, no programing is transmitted in a useable to them 3D signal. And the one that was doing so announced recently they were ceasing all 3D transmissions because it never caught on
Edited by dieselrat - 10/28/13 at 12:22am
post #240 of 250
Yeah I wonder how long the new tech will 'really' last as it hasn't been around real long and of course is constantly changing. Looks good on paper and ALT (Accelerated Life Testing) but...

Sounds like that first poster you replied to is only familiar with 4:3 curved CRTs. BTW how far back did you dig for these posts? biggrin.gif

I got into the whole 480i/HD issue here before. Many of us are dependent on OTA broadcasts so forget 1080p, and like you said a lot of stations are 480i (I had pointed out that a lot of the movie stations broadcast in 480i). Then there's the whole DVD universe.

I haven't been much on upscaling DVDs, especially the ones I record - has a fuzzy look. I have a little better luck with my HDD recorder but it only upscales to 480p. I'm restricted to using component though as my Panny CRT is pre-HDMI/DVI.
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