or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 38

post #1111 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post

I gave it another shot and something just isn't working. To rehash.. I have the C3 meter and Calman 5 with my LG lw5600 LCD.

When I set the 2 point grayscale with 30-80%, I have no red in the 80% and only a small bit in the 30%. Blues are in the 112-15 range. My initial color temp readings are in the 8900-9000 range. Everything out there says the colors are really good on this tv and I believe they are. Just not sure why I have such a bad reading for temp and reds. They are basically missing through the whole 2 and 10 point grayscales. Turning contrast down has not helped at all. I have tried contrast from 94-72. The color clipping pattern with a contrast of 90 shows red stopping at 245 and green and blue at 247-249.. As everyon would figure, adding red in all the % points does nothing but kill the picture and I am left with nothing but pinks instead of whites..

Any ideas for me. I can get into the SM without a problem, but figured the controls are there without it, so I wouldn't yet.

The meter is brand new so I wouldn't think it is the problem..

perhaps you're starting in the wrong mode.
Try using one of the warmer presets for color temp.
post #1112 of 2242
That was in the Warm setting. The Medium was around 9700 and cool was over 10,000. Warm was 9069 last time i did it. I can understand why I have a ton of blue and no red then. Just no idea what I can do about it without raising the red to +50 and lowering Blue to -50. Then I have a nice shade of pink everywhere.. I believe I read before to leave Green alone if at all possible. I thought for sure that meant I was clipping red off, but the patterns don't show it and lowering contrast did not make a change on it either. Completely stumped right now.
post #1113 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post

That was in the Warm setting. The Medium was around 9700 and cool was over 10,000. Warm was 9069 last time i did it. I can understand why I have a ton of blue and no red then. Just no idea what I can do about it without raising the red to +50 and lowering Blue to -50. Then I have a nice shade of pink everywhere.. I believe I read before to leave Green alone if at all possible. I thought for sure that meant I was clipping red off, but the patterns don't show it and lowering contrast did not make a change on it either. Completely stumped right now.

I have a sneaky feeling you are not really familiar with the controls on the TV and what they do and how to use them.
You set the color temp to warm, then do a 2 point gray scale adjustment to bring get all the gray scale as close to D65 as you can. Then you do a 10 point to fine tune that and adjust the gamma. This of course is after the contrast, brightness and back light are set. Try following the basic tutorial workflow, it walks you through the steps. Read all the help files along the way. Calman won't calibrate you TV, it is just a tool, you need to know what to do with the tool. Like M Chen says, a hammer does not come with instructions on how to build a house.
One other thing to mention, Spectracal has phone tech support, give them a call for some one on one questions, answers, and instruction.

If you are in the 2 point and just not sure what to do, lower Blue red and green will come up. Lower green red will come up. It is LED so the light output is very blue, don't get hung up on how many clicks it takes to get it correct it does not mater if it is -59 or -100 just the the gray scale is the proper color of white. Don't fret about never touch green on an LG, it has a 10 point where you will correct the gamma .. but for now you need to tame the blue. You should be changing the cuts and gains under the 2 point not the colors in the CMS..
Edited by airscapes - 2/28/13 at 3:43pm
post #1114 of 2242
I have done all those things already. I set the brightness, contrast, backlight to give me mid 50's for daytime and then on the 2 point, I ended up with deltas in the 1's for 30% and 80%. But what i meant is to do that, I had to add red to the max, lowered green to -25 or so and lowered blue to the max also. I could see right away that the LG menu had turned pink, but went ahead anyways. Did the 10 point. delta was 1.7? and my gamma ended around 2.26. The line had no dips or peaks at all. The CMS barely needed any adjustments because all were under 2. So my end stuff looked good on paper... but the picture is very pink. I have a calibrated Samsung here that ChadB did before and unfortunately, my calibration isn't even in the same country let alone city.
post #1115 of 2242
Sorry, I didn't understand.
So have you hung the meter on the display Chad Calibrated and done a 10 point gray scale run to see how it measures with your meter? It would let you know if the meter is a mile off.
post #1116 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post

I have done all those things already. I set the brightness, contrast, backlight to give me mid 50's for daytime and then on the 2 point, I ended up with deltas in the 1's for 30% and 80%. But what i meant is to do that, I had to add red to the max, lowered green to -25 or so and lowered blue to the max also. I could see right away that the LG menu had turned pink, but went ahead anyways. Did the 10 point. delta was 1.7? and my gamma ended around 2.26. The line had no dips or peaks at all. The CMS barely needed any adjustments because all were under 2. So my end stuff looked good on paper... but the picture is very pink. I have a calibrated Samsung here that ChadB did before and unfortunately, my calibration isn't even in the same country let alone city.

The problem is this: LG 2 Point is NOT 30 and 80, but 30 and 100. In Calman with the extended to Dynamic 109, I've actually done the 2 Point as 30 and 109.
But try doing your 2 Point as 30 and 100, and now things may work out better.
post #1117 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

However, I wonder why the Black Level control on my display continues to be called Brightness.
Surely this should be an obvious target for correctness, or is there a good reason for this apparent error in terminology?

Brightness doesn't just raise the black level. It raises everything - imagine a constant value added to the entire curve. I suppose it was intended to adjust your TV to match the "brightness" of the room.

That is with a traditional display. I've seen some digital computer monitors do bizarre things with brightness and contrast controls.
post #1118 of 2242
Posted quote from ConnecTEDDD:

There some new Drivers for those who got Lumagen Radiance from SpectraCAL and using the included CalMAN Certified USB to Serial Adapter for the connection.

FTDI VCP CDM 2.08.28 WHQL Certified (20-02-2013)
http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm

Release Fixes

- Fixed bug on close port for .NET Framework applications.
- Fixed problem on close port that caused some hubs to fail.Reply

Don't know whether it was my imagination or not, but I thought that after I updated to the new drivers, my 21 Point AutoCal Grayscale appeared a little tighter.
post #1119 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Brightness doesn't just raise the black level. It raises everything - imagine a constant value added to the entire curve. I suppose it was intended to adjust your TV to match the "brightness" of the room.

That is with a traditional display. I've seen some digital computer monitors do bizarre things with brightness and contrast controls.

I am aware that it is vital to get 'blackness' correct because as you say it adjusts the range of the 'whiteness'. However, the purpose of the 'brightness' control is to set the 'blackness level' not to adjust 'whiteness'. There is a different Display control for adjusting 'whiteness'.

It would surprise me if the black level adjustment control in the Processing Equipment for video is still called Brightness.

If there is a good reason to keep it or something I am missing then I am prepared to learn but otherwise I am wondering why the insistence on correct terminology does not appear to include 'Brightness'?
Edited by PE06MCG - 3/1/13 at 4:24am
post #1120 of 2242
My point was, the name "brightness" is not completely untrue as it can make the image brighter. Forget about someone with training using the control correctly. You have to keep in mind how they marketed TVs to the masses, and what the average consumer saw when they messed around with the control. They see the image get brighter and think brighter = better. You and I use the control to set black level but it would not be very good marketing to call it a "blackness" control!

My question is, do we even need the control on digital displays?
post #1121 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

I am aware that it is vital to get 'blackness' correct because as you say it adjusts the range of the 'whiteness'. However, the purpose of the 'brightness' control is to set the 'blackness level' not to adjust 'whiteness'. There is a different Display control for adjusting 'whiteness'.

It would surprise me if the black level adjustment control in the Processing Equipment for video is still called Brightness.

If there is a good reason to keep it or something I am missing then I am prepared to learn but otherwise I am wondering why the insistence on correct terminology does not appear to include 'Brightness'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

My point was, the name "brightness" is not completely untrue as it can make the image brighter. Forget about someone with training using the control correctly. You have to keep in mind how they marketed TVs to the masses, and what the average consumer saw when they messed around with the control. They see the image get brighter and think brighter = better. You and I use the control to set black level but it would not be very good marketing to call it a "blackness" control!

My question is, do we even need the control on digital displays?

This topic has also been going on for a long time, would be great if they were more appropriately labeled.....
they need to be properly adjusted to give the maximum dynamic range.. a lot of users put a lot of time into Contrast, WTW/where to clip? blah blah blah, I hope they put enough time into Brightness (at least the same amount plus).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Poynton 
This note was formerly called BLACK LEVEL and PICTURE, reflecting a time when I was engaged in a campaign to give these controls meaningful and sensible names. I'm sorry to report that I have abandoned that campaign; however, I continue my effort to educate users and system designers.
frown.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Poynton 
This note introduces the two main user adjustments of a video monitor, BRIGHTNESS and CONTRAST. I explain the effect that these controls have on picture reproduction, and I explain how to set them. This note applies to computer monitors, studio video monitors, and television receivers.

Unfortunately, the labels BRIGHTNESS and CONTRAST are misleading with respect to their functions: The control called BRIGHTNESS mainly affects reproduced contrast, and the control called CONTRAST ideally affects only brightness! The misleading labels have led to a great deal of confusion about how to set up a monitor for good reproduction.

[[This note dates from 1999. It applies to CRT displays. At 2010-06-03, I am working to update it to reflect modern displays, particularly LCDs.]]

Permission is granted for noncommercial redistribution of this document in its entirety, including this notice. The latest revision of this document is available at www.poynton.com/notes/brightness_and_contrast/

If you would like to print this document, I recommend that you obtain the PDF version of this note.

black icon This icon indicates the BRIGHTNESS control, more properly called BLACK LEVEL. It adds or subtracts an offset, or bias, into the red, green, and blue signals. This control should be adjusted so that black picture content displays as true black on your monitor. Misadjustment of this control is the most common problem of poor quality picture reproduction on computer monitors, video monitors, and television sets. Later in this document, I will explain how to set this control properly. The setting is somewhat dependent upon ambient light. Modern display equipment is sufficiently stable that frequent adjustment is unnecessary.


picture icon This icon indicates the CONTRAST control, preferably called PICTURE. It applies a scale factor (gain) to the red, green, and blue signals. It affects the luminance (proportional to intensity) that is reproduced for a full white input signal. Once BRIGHTNESS is set correctly, CONTRAST should be set for comfortable viewing brightness.


This note was formerly called BLACK LEVEL and PICTURE, reflecting a time when I was engaged in a campaign to give these controls meaningful and sensible names. I'm sorry to report that I have abandoned that campaign; however, I continue my effort to educate users and system designers.

LCD displays have controls labeled BRIGHTNESS and CONTRAST, but these controls have different functions than the like-named controls of a CRT display. In an LCD, the BRIGHTNESS control, or the control with that icon, typically alters the backlight luminance, thereby effecting control over what in a CRT would be adjusted by CONTRAST. The remainder of this note applies just to CRTs.

I will explain the controls with reference to Figures 1 through 4 below. In the graphs, the x-axis represents the video signal input to a monitor, and the y-axis shows the luminance produced at the face of the screen. The transfer function involves a nonlinear relationship from signal to light.

Contrast ratio is the ratio of luminance between the brightest white that can be produced and the darkest black that can be produced. Contrast ratio is a major determinant of perceived picture quality: If a picture has high contrast ratio, you will judge it to be sharper than a picture with lower contrast ratio, even if the lower contrast picture has substantially more measurable resolution.

To achieve good reproduced contrast ratio and good picture quality, it is important to set black level accurately. The most common problem with picture reproduction on video and computer monitors is misadjustment of black level. Figure 3 shows what happens if BRIGHTNESS is set too low. Figure 4 shows what happens if BRIGHTNESS is set too high.

http://www.poynton.com/notes/brightness_and_contrast/
Edited by turbe - 3/1/13 at 9:06am
post #1122 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

My point was, the name "brightness" is not completely untrue as it can make the image brighter. Forget about someone with training using the control correctly. You have to keep in mind how they marketed TVs to the masses, and what the average consumer saw when they messed around with the control. They see the image get brighter and think brighter = better. You and I use the control to set black level but it would not be very good marketing to call it a "blackness" control!

My question is, do we even need the control on digital displays?

Marketing or not it is not the best terminology for its purpose.
Every other science tends to associate brightness with light not the lack of it.
However, it is a legacy term and I take your point about it being associated with the Display (rather than calibration).

Regarding its need, I have always thought that the Display's Black Level was a necessary adjustment of the Display before calibration.
On my TV (an LCD CCFL) it seems to adjust the backlight.

What are you suggesting?

My experience is that if I output RGB to my TV it has a totally different black level than if I output YCbCr so that would be one variable that manufacturers are probably aware of so must presumably allow us to adjust accordingly.
post #1123 of 2242
@Turbe

Sorry, posted my reply before I read your post.

Many thanks for the background on this.

I am tempted to say 'I rest my Case' but frankly the people with the power take no notice so it seems a lost cause.

Perhaps my previous comments about Science always moving on were a little misplaced.
post #1124 of 2242
it's not all lost..

Even with the incorrect label of "IRE" that many manufacturers still use today mad.gif (which doesn't help), we can follow this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Poynton 
however, I continue my effort to educate users

for ControlCAL, I switched from using "IRE" which doesn't match the display's labels in its menus (which can, at times, add to a user's confusion confused.gif and to my support load)


We Can Do It! One user at a time™

wink.gif


.
Edited by turbe - 3/1/13 at 9:47am
post #1125 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Regarding its need, I have always thought that the Display's Black Level was a necessary adjustment of the Display before calibration.
On my TV (an LCD CCFL) it seems to adjust the backlight.

What are you suggesting?

Look at PC monitors, most of them don't have a black level control anymore (brighntess usually = backlight). There is no reason on gods green earth that you can't map 16 to off, at least for LCDs. It may still be necessary on plasmas, but for LCDs the full "off state" is well understood and easily mapped to the input signal.

Since the only thing you should use brightness for is setting level 16 correctly (not getting 17 correct, or trying to adjust a range of values, even though it does effect a range), it' simply not necessary for a correctly engineered display.

So it's not that adjusting black level isn't needed on today's displays, but that it in designing a display it's a superfluous control.
post #1126 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

it's not all lost..

Even with the incorrect label of "IRE" that many manufacturers still use today mad.gif (which doesn't help), we can follow this:
for ControlCAL, I switched from using "IRE" which doesn't match the display's labels in its menus (which can, at times, add to a user's confusion confused.gif and to my support load)


We Can Do It! One user at a time™

wink.gif


.

Yes, I have accepted the reasoning behind the need to switch from IRE usage because at the time I was unaware it was the incorrect term (I do not have a video science education).
Thanks to all (especially Doug B. and Joel) for explaining the reasoning.

My question regarding Brightness was to ask for consistency of correct terminology because I thought this was obviously incorrect even to an amateur like me.

Seems we are all 'singing from the same hymn sheet' with this particular anomaly, unless of course the powers that be can explain their reluctance to conform.

It must be difficult for Technical Professionals to tighten up the science when such glaring examples exist.
post #1127 of 2242
I have to admit, I like to put more priority into posting in other areas, like having a spectrometer where IMO it will make a greater impact..

one user at a time.... and for that user to one more and so on.


Doug really deserves the credit here on AVS in regards to the incorrect label "IRE" for modern displays.. it was a post of his way back that got my attention.. it was coming up enough in posts that I linked one of his later posts Here and referenced it when I saw it come up here and other forums.. there were a couple Professionals/veterans (other forums) that didn't think this was a big deal to even post about it though confused.gif..

Doug has been advocating it for a while including to other professionals...
Edited by turbe - 3/1/13 at 11:42am
post #1128 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Thanks for reply Doug,

So things are changing which is as it should be with any science.

However, I wonder why the Black Level control on my display continues to be called Brightness.
Surely this should be an obvious target for correctness, or is there a good reason for this apparent error in terminology?

65+ years of doing it wrong is the only answer. It has been labeled wrong (so has Contrast) for so long, nobody has the guts to start doing it right. In the 1940s, manufacturers thought the general public was just too stupid to understand black level and white level, so they invented Brightness and Contrast which were far less descriptive of what the controls actually did. It was a dumb move then and it's even dumber now. Even as a kid of 8 or so, I knew Brightness never made the whole picture brighter. Nobody who has any technical knowledge of TV knows the control names are wrong, but apparently, manufacturers still think the general public is stupid and it would be major trauma if they changed the control names. Of course if they started naming them Brightness/Black Level and Contrast/White level for 30 years, eventually they could (presumably) drop the Brightness and Contrast names.
post #1129 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

@Turbe

Sorry, posted my reply before I read your post.

Many thanks for the background on this.

I am tempted to say 'I rest my Case' but frankly the people with the power take no notice so it seems a lost cause.

Perhaps my previous comments about Science always moving on were a little misplaced.

The issue is that science and technology move on... but marketing & sales do not. Nevermind that senior citizens are using online dating services and manage to use Windows-based computers (even if a bit in-expertly in some cases), and smart phones, and microwave ovens, coffee shop wi-fi, wi-fi at home, networked printers, and all manner of modern tech. And nevermind that 10 year olds can create Power Point presentations and jailbreak their iPhones. The public is just too dumb to deal with the loss of their Brightness and Contrast controls.
Edited by Doug Blackburn - 3/1/13 at 11:39am
post #1130 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Look at PC monitors, most of them don't have a black level control anymore (brighntess usually = backlight). There is no reason on gods green earth that you can't map 16 to off, at least for LCDs. It may still be necessary on plasmas, but for LCDs the full "off state" is well understood and easily mapped to the input signal.

Since the only thing you should use brightness for is setting level 16 correctly (not getting 17 correct, or trying to adjust a range of values, even though it does effect a range), it' simply not necessary for a correctly engineered display.

So it's not that adjusting black level isn't needed on today's displays, but that it in designing a display it's a superfluous control.

Hi Joel,

Thanks for explanation.

Hadn't really thought about it that way.
When you say map 16 to off do you mean backlight to off?

If so my higher Black Level when I change from say RGB to YCbCr will not be an issue if the backlight is switched off at 16 as you are suggesting?
If so, this explains why I cannot stop my contrast from clipping white when using the higher black position. If I reduced my Backlight I would probably have better success.

Currently I have used high contrast with the backlight used to set my max Y output at100% white..
(Please note my non use of 100% IRE).
post #1131 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

When you say map 16 to off do you mean backlight to off?
No I mean the pixels. Off means twist the pixel to be fully opaque.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

If so my higher Black Level when I change from say RGB to YCbCr will not be an issue if the backlight is switched off at 16 as you are suggesting?

Nothing to do with backlight, there are only two possible black levels, 0 and 16. You still might need an override switch to set it manually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Currently I have used high contrast with the backlight used to set my max Y output at100% white..
(Please note my non use of 100% IRE).
Contrast = white clipping level (no clipping)
Brightness = black clipping level ( 16 is indistinguishable from 0)
Backlight = light output.

Three controls for three separate tasks.
post #1132 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

65+ years of doing it wrong is the only answer. It has been labeled wrong (so has Contrast) for so long, nobody has the guts to start doing it right.

Next up: "Cool" vs. "Warm" when used in reference to color "temperature." wink.gif
post #1133 of 2242
Gamma at 2.18.docx 203k .docx file

Is it ever correct after a calibration to see pink in the grayscale and white clipping pattern. I have included my grayscale numbers from my calibration today. I do see a touch of pink in my LG menu and possibly a little in faces, but other than that, the TV looks real good and the blacks are excellent now. I only see the pink real bad now on patterns on the AVS709 disk, but don't see anything wrong on this grayscale. Any thoughts?
post #1134 of 2242
Did you measure the TV that Chad calibrated to see if it measure as it should or if you meter is way off.
post #1135 of 2242
Yes.. It was around 6000 and another LG plasma in the house was around 6300 I think. The calibrated Samsung plasma from Chad was from maybe 4 years ago, so it is not up to calibrated standards anymore. So 6000 would probably be about right. I did go into the service menu and work out of it to get this last calibration. It was the only way I could go because the limit of + / - 50 on the user controls still was not enough being the amount of blue. I ended up going from 192 red and green, 172 blue on contrast in service menu to 232 red, 183 green, and 98 blue. I do not know if this will hurt the TV in the long run or not or if that was the right way to go with the numbers either. I did not touch the low end service numbers. They are still default of 64. I do think they blacks are the best I have seen now outside a good grade plasma.

One more thing though, when I started into this calibration after the service menu readings, my starting temp was 6596. When I was done with the calibration and really didn't change much in the 2 or 10 point, I checked the color temp screen again in Calman and it was at 6337. Not sure what I did so drastic to push it warm during the calibration.
post #1136 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post

Gamma at 2.18.docx 203k .docx file

Is it ever correct after a calibration to see pink in the grayscale and white clipping pattern. I have included my grayscale numbers from my calibration today. I do see a touch of pink in my LG menu and possibly a little in faces, but other than that, the TV looks real good and the blacks are excellent now. I only see the pink real bad now on patterns on the AVS709 disk, but don't see anything wrong on this grayscale. Any thoughts?

If you're using the AVS 709 Calibrating Disc, you'll notice, if you have the Contrast too high, you get the Pink. Turn Contrast down, until the Pink just disappears, and you're left with just the Gray.
post #1137 of 2242
I've been interested in getting CalMan 5 but am not sure which version to get. I see they have a "Tutorial" version that's supposed to walk you through the program step-by-step. I think that's the one for me but am not sure if I'll regret it later and wish I'd've gone for one of the more expensive versions. How user friendly is CalMan for someone who's only experience with Calibration is just doing changes on user menu with discs like DVE, AVS 709, and Disney WOW?
post #1138 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocShemp View Post

I've been interested in getting CalMan 5 but am not sure which version to get. I see they have a "Tutorial" version that's supposed to walk you through the program step-by-step. I think that's the one for me but am not sure if I'll regret it later and wish I'd've gone for one of the more expensive versions. How user friendly is CalMan for someone who's only experience with Calibration is just doing changes on user menu with discs like DVE, AVS 709, and Disney WOW?

We do allow upgrades from version to version. In most cases it is just the difference in cost. So little to no risk starting out with Tutorial and waiting to move up later.

In fact nearly 50% of those that start with Tutorial move up with in 60 days.
post #1139 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

We do allow upgrades from version to version. In most cases it is just the difference in cost. So little to no risk starting out with Tutorial and waiting to move up later.

In fact nearly 50% of those that start with Tutorial move up with in 60 days.

Thanks. I didn't know that I could upgrade as I go along.
post #1140 of 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocShemp View Post

Thanks. I didn't know that I could upgrade as I go along.

One of the reasons we came up with the Tutorial license model. So people could get into calibration without a lot of up front expense but not lose the investment when they want/need to update to more features like those in Control or Enthusiasts.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Display Calibration
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion