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CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 44

post #1291 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post



Next Build of CalMAN coming this week will include Color Checker of 96 Colors ? (I have to update my upcoming disk)

We were thinking of something like this:

Dope! wink.gif

Have you set any limit to the total custom color points that a Custom Patch Set can have? I think there will be a Custom External Color Editor to enter your target RGB Triplets, right? Does this feature will be available to Enthousiast Licence? or only to Studio + Ultimate?
post #1292 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We were thinking of something like this:

How do you pick the coordinates Joel?

Are they random non calibrated or mid points (if one can use that phrase for 3D).?
post #1293 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

How do you pick the coordinates Joel?

Are they random non calibrated or mid points (if one can use that phrase for 3D).?

The new 96 color set in our product is the X-Rite Color Checker SG set of colors
http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?id=938

post #1294 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Dope! wink.gif

Have you set any limit to the total custom color points that a Custom Patch Set can have?
The upper limit is only bounded computer performance and 32bit objects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

I think there will be a Custom External Color Editor to enter your target RGB Triplets, right?
Yes, deffinetly RGB as percentage (to keep support for the duo).
Possibly XnYnZn (how we feed in the actual color checker).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Does this feature will be available to Enthousiast Licence? or only to Studio + Ultimate?
You know the licensing of this hasn't been completely discussed. But I assume the full feature set will be available to enthusiast, but don't hold me to that as I haven't actually talked to anyone about that.
post #1295 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

How do you pick the coordinates Joel?

Are they random non calibrated or mid points (if one can use that phrase for 3D).?

The new 96 color set in our product is the X-Rite Color Checker SG set of colors
http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?id=938


X-Rite has 140 Colors, Have you removed the 'Classic Color Checker 24 Colors' or 17-Step Grayscale ?

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/gmb/en/100_ColorChecker_brochure_en.pdf
http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/ColorChecker_content/Digital%20ColorChecker%20SG.txt
post #1296 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The upper limit is only bounded computer performance and 32bit objects.
Yes, deffinetly RGB as percentage (to keep support for the duo).
Possibly XnYnZn (how we feed in the actual color checker).
You know the licensing of this hasn't been completely discussed. But I assume the full feature set will be available to enthusiast, but don't hold me to that as I haven't actually talked to anyone about that.

Forgive my technical ignorance Joel but if support for the DUO can be done with Colorchecker why is the normal possibility to use the DUO as a Pattern Generator for say 3D LUT's not considered?
post #1297 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Forgive my technical ignorance Joel but if support for the DUO can be done with Colorchecker why is the normal possibility to use the DUO as a Pattern Generator for say 3D LUT's not considered?

Because for color checker we forcibly round everything to RGB 1% increments 0-100%, so we can support the DUO.

For Cube Calibrations we need bit level control.
post #1298 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

X-Rite has 140 Colors, Have you removed the 'Classic Color Checker 24 Colors' or 17-Step Grayscale ?

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/gmb/en/100_ColorChecker_brochure_en.pdf
http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/ColorChecker_content/Digital%20ColorChecker%20SG.txt

There are 44 swatches that border the interior 96 colors. The exterior swatches are a repeating 0%, 50%, 100% pattern that are also included in the enclosed 96 swatches.
post #1299 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

X-Rite has 140 Colors, Have you removed the 'Classic Color Checker 24 Colors' or 17-Step Grayscale ?

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/gmb/en/100_ColorChecker_brochure_en.pdf
http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/ColorChecker_content/Digital%20ColorChecker%20SG.txt

There are 44 swatches that border the interior 96 colors. The exterior swatches are a repeating 0%, 50%, 100% pattern that are also included in the enclosed 96 swatches.

Nice! I'm waiting the upcoming build.. wink.gif
post #1300 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Because for color checker we forcibly round everything to RGB 1% increments 0-100%, so we can support the DUO.

For Cube Calibrations we need bit level control.

Thanks for reply, are decimal points not allowed in 0-100% ?

Surely this would give the better accuracy with 0.0-100.0 rather than 0-255 or whatever the steps are.?
Presumably thissolution is not as simple as it appears to be?
post #1301 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Thanks for reply, are decimal points not allowed in 0-100% ?

That's exactly right.

The interface from the DUO only supports RGB as integers of 0-100.
post #1302 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

X-Rite has 140 Colors, Have you removed the 'Classic Color Checker 24 Colors' or 17-Step Grayscale ?

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/gmb/en/100_ColorChecker_brochure_en.pdf
http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/ColorChecker_content/Digital%20ColorChecker%20SG.txt

One other thing to note, is even though the SG includes the original 24 colors, the values x-rite has for the 24 swatches were different enough between their documentation for the SG and Classic, that we included the SG data with the SG set and the classic retains the original values we use. So if you turn on both sets, you'll have overlap.
post #1303 of 2247
I assume there will be an Instruction Sheet to go with all this?
post #1304 of 2247
Sotti,

If i want to calibrate HTPC , with my Sony TV, with Client PC.
What should i use ? SRGB or D65 with Power Gamma ?

Thanks.
post #1305 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

I assume there will be an Instruction Sheet to go with all this?

Instructions? Are there instructions for any part of CalMAN? Seriously... I love the system and am a great fan, but if anyone knows of any written instructions, let me know! For me, lack of written instructions is the most frustrating part of CalMAN. I used to write custom software and know a good set of docs takes as long to produce as the program itself (I'm including programmer docs in that too), so I understand not doing it. But a user manual would be great.
post #1306 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Instructions? Are there instructions for any part of CalMAN? Seriously... I love the system and am a great fan, but if anyone knows of any written instructions, let me know! For me, lack of written instructions is the most frustrating part of CalMAN. I used to write custom software and know a good set of docs takes as long to produce as the program itself (I'm including programmer docs in that too), so I understand not doing it. But a user manual would be great.

I have the enthusiast version of CalMAN 5 and there are tons of instructions built into the tutorial (basic and advanced) workflows as well as the HT Basic and HT Advanced workflows. There is also the help menu, with both sections relevant to specific parts of the workflows and a general help menu that opens in a separate window altogether. There is plenty of info on what to do and how to do it if you know where to look. Not 100% comprehensive, but better than version 4 by a mile.
post #1307 of 2247
I agree some additional instructions and specifically explanations of some of the settings and design mode in CalMAN would be helpful. However, the program has come a long way with the addition of the tutorials and help sections. Going through those should answer the majority of the questions most users have. I think the difficult part for a lot of users is not knowing the science of calibration more so than CalMAN itself. This expanded ColorChecker is a good example. Color values will need to be entered in either percentage or RGB triplets. Some users will be looking at SpectraCal for info on how to determine the RGB triplet values. I don't think it is the responsibility of any of the calibration software companies to teach calibration science so that their customers can use the features of their programs.
post #1308 of 2247
Well said Praz,

I still know very little about colour science but asking questions both here and other forums has allowed me to be capable of at least making a decent calibration.

Colorchecker and its associated Color Comparator have allowed me to bridge that gap between the maths of dE values and what they actually mean in colour difference. I think Joel was brave to initially use the patterns but what a success they have been.

In fact I have found recent versions of Calman 5 get progressively more capable yet at the same time easier to understand, a difficult thing to do. Calman today is much more understandable than the Calman of yesterday that seemed to cater only for the expert.
post #1309 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by praz View Post

I agree some additional instructions and specifically explanations of some of the settings and design mode in CalMAN would be helpful. However, the program has come a long way with the addition of the tutorials and help sections. Going through those should answer the majority of the questions most users have. I think the difficult part for a lot of users is not knowing the science of calibration more so than CalMAN itself. This expanded ColorChecker is a good example. Color values will need to be entered in either percentage or RGB triplets. Some users will be looking at SpectraCal for info on how to determine the RGB triplet values. I don't think it is the responsibility of any of the calibration software companies to teach calibration science so that their customers can use the features of their programs.

This statement was fine a few years ago! But, now days, you're out selling product to New Users, Amateurs, etc, not just to the `Been to 3 Years of Schooling' for this.' More and more home users are now buying your products and getting familiar to having a more than `Out of the Box' experience with their sets. So, I think that with more of the Home Users now becoming a larger part of your clientel, some adjustments have to be made. To do so, will again, increase sales to this market.
post #1310 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachmat-d View Post

Sotti,

If i want to calibrate HTPC , with my Sony TV, with Client PC.
What should i use ? SRGB or D65 with Power Gamma ?

Thanks.

For the most part the difference between power 2.2, sRGB and BT.1886 is subtle, except in the shadow area. In the low end sRGB and BT.1886 come out of black a bit quicker.

Personally I use BT.1886, but sRGB is very similiar.

Either way the chromaticy targets you want are the same rec.709 and sRGB have exactly the same primaries and white point.
post #1311 of 2247
Thanks praz and plasma. I guess I'm just old-school. I'd like something to reference and learn from without having to necessarily sit at the computer... especially my calibration rig that's in my control room. I want something with a table of contents and an index... proper documentation.

I see cool custom screens and would just like to flip to a chapter on how to set them up. I see 10 point (I think, many more than 5 anyway) luminance ramps on the primary and secondaries and would like to know if I can set that up for a read to see how accurate my 5 point calibration is when interacting with the pj's color decoder. The thought of having to plow through a sequential tutorial to access this info puts me off, especially when I don't even know if that subject is covered or what tutorial it may be in. I can't even browse a table of contents or index to see if the subject is addressed at all. So I'm left with the prospect of having to plow through a bunch of material I already know to see if what I want to know is even addressed.

This may sound pretty negative. So I want to say again... I love CalMAN and the results. I'd buy it again in an instant.
Edited by erkq - 4/5/13 at 9:45am
post #1312 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by praz View Post

...
I think the difficult part for a lot of users is not knowing the science of calibration more so than CalMAN itself. This expanded ColorChecker is a good example. Color values will need to be entered in either percentage or RGB triplets. Some users will be looking at SpectraCal for info on how to determine the RGB triplet values. I don't think it is the responsibility of any of the calibration software companies to teach calibration science so that their customers can use the features of their programs.

I agree with this, and this isn't the type of information I'd want to see in a User Manual. I want details on how to set up custom screens and measurement options... stuff specific to CalMAN.
post #1313 of 2247
900x900px-LL-639cea7e_1Apr06.jpeg 45k .jpeg file
OK... this... for example, I just want to do this. And I don't want to have to plow through tutorials or ask on a forum how to do it. I just want to look at an index or a table of contents and go right to the place in the user documentation that addresses setting the luminance points for a read series.

And, I'd really like to have that screen that shows luminance and dE errors. One stop shopping. What a great screen!
post #1314 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

This statement was fine a few years ago! But, now days, you're out selling product to New Users, Amateurs, etc, not just to the `Been to 3 Years of Schooling' for this.' More and more home users are now buying your products and getting familiar to having a more than `Out of the Box' experience with their sets. So, I think that with more of the Home Users now becoming a larger part of your clientel, some adjustments have to be made. To do so, will again, increase sales to this market.

I guess we will just have to disagree on this. Maybe it is because I own businesses and realize that a profit has to be made to stay in business. It is completely unrealistic to think that one can buy software for $400 or $500.00 and receive several thousand dollars worth of education to go along with the purchase. I also feel both Derek and Joel do much to help with the education part on the forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

I agree with this, and this isn't the type of information I'd want to see in a User Manual. I want details on how to set up custom screens and measurement options... stuff specific to CalMAN.

The examples in your previous post I think are reasonable expectations of info to include in CalMAN.
post #1315 of 2247
I agree that we could do a better job with written materials.

We poured many hours into the content for our tutorial workflows, but it would be good to go back through and get more of it into the actual help file (there is one you know). Once the content is in the help system, it can be printed or we could even produce a pdf version.

Our goal has always been to allow someone with no color science background to use our app and get started. Then as their interest and knowledge grows they can explore more and more of the features in the app. But approachability for a new user is very important to us, and is something where I think we can still do better.
post #1316 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I agree that we could do a better job with written materials.

We poured many hours into the content for our tutorial workflows, but it would be good to go back through and get more of it into the actual help file (there is one you know). Once the content is in the help system, it can be printed or we could even produce a pdf version.

Our goal has always been to allow someone with no color science background to use our app and get started. Then as their interest and knowledge grows they can explore more and more of the features in the app. But approachability for a new user is very important to us, and is something where I think we can still do better.

I may sound frustrated, but I am addressing just one small portion of your product. Overall I'd have to say CalMAN/Radiance/C6 has made the single greatest positive impact on my home theater!
post #1317 of 2247
Well being a new user I think Spectralcal did a great job. Using there software taught me how to calibrate manually. smile.gif
post #1318 of 2247
In case anyone is interested here is what the full color checker SG looks like when you open the gamut up to include the entire CIE 31 colorspace


Here's what it looks like when you have to clamp it down to DCI


And Rec709



You can see since the color definitions are stored in CalMAN as XYZ, the colors stay in the same place although the ones that are out of gamut get clipped to the edge of the gamut.
post #1319 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I agree that we could do a better job with written materials.

We poured many hours into the content for our tutorial workflows, but it would be good to go back through and get more of it into the actual help file (there is one you know). Once the content is in the help system, it can be printed or we could even produce a pdf version.

Our goal has always been to allow someone with no color science background to use our app and get started. Then as their interest and knowledge grows they can explore more and more of the features in the app. But approachability for a new user is very important to us, and is something where I think we can still do better.

I think the basics are pretty well covered (even though all the info might not be in one place) but detailed explanations of the more advanced controls/options would be a welcome addition... especially features that are more recent additions like saturation and luminance sweeps and the colorchecker and so on. That being said support via the SpectraCal forum and this one is prompt and very helpful, especially if you have a very specific question.
post #1320 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

In case anyone is interested here is what the full color checker SG looks like when you open the gamut up to include the entire CIE 31 colorspace


Here's what it looks like when you have to clamp it down to DCI


And Rec709



You can see since the color definitions are stored in CalMAN as XYZ, the colors stay in the same place although the ones that are out of gamut get clipped to the edge of the gamut.

That looks very comprehensive but unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to use it, since I still display patterns manually on my PS3/BD player via calibration discs and manually going through 100 patterns would be a nightmare.

Is there any way I can use my laptop as a pattern generator reliably or should I just stick to the 24-pt colorchecker?

Also, are tools like the saturation and luminance sweeps and the colorchecker useful for setting color/tint or are they only for those with a CMS and/or external video processor? My setup isn't centered around a HTPC, so I have no access to 3DLUTs.
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