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CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 50

post #1471 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No. For the radiance the 125 point calibration relies on the 21 point grayscale to set the gamma. Having only 5 control points for grayscale gamma (what you get via the 125 point cube) does not provide sufficient control to get errors as low as users expect from a 21 point calibration.

That said, the points in between the points we calibrate are affected by the 6 neighboring control points that push and pull through the middle of any interior cubes. So you will see the RGB balance is slightly disturbed. But that's beyond our ability to control, it's part of the interpolation algorithm inside the radiance.

Can we go back and tweak grayscale manually without re-running 125 point cube, or does that mess up the cube?
post #1472 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Try the CM internal patterns.

I was looking into CM's test patterns, but after reading what Joel was saying about CM patterns on Calmans forum plus so very little info on how to setup the laptop/s and run the patterns. I will just have to wait for the boys at Calman to fix the problem.

ss
post #1473 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Can we go back and tweak grayscale manually without re-running 125 point cube, or does that mess up the cube?

When you adjust the grayscale it has a pervasive effect for that level throughout the cube. Will it be better? Worse? Is it a large effect or a small effect?

None of those questions can be answered in a an definitive way. It will always depend on the display under testing, so the only way to truly answer the question is to run testing after you make the adjustments to see if something like the color checker got better or worse.
post #1474 of 2247
Out of curiosity, whats on the bottom side of the I1 Pro 2 that has the little yellow sticker covering it? You are supposed to remove it, but it looks like another sensor.
post #1475 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Out of curiosity, whats on the bottom side of the I1 Pro 2 that has the little yellow sticker covering it? You are supposed to remove it, but it looks like another sensor.

It is a patches tracking sensor for the printer profiler, not used for displays.
post #1476 of 2247
OK, thanks! I was reading the manual online and thats what it looked like, just wanted to be sure. I really loving having this thing, nice knowing you have a nice accurate instrument.

I noticed you clean the white tile with a q-tip, and then cover it back up when not in use. They also recommend removing the head and then pulling out the glass piece for cleaning with a soft cloth and alcohol Obviously this is not something I want to do often, but just visually inspecting the glass what would be a concern. I mean is one spec of dust a problem, or not?
post #1477 of 2247
Will the new patterns work with CALMAN 5 DDC?
post #1478 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

When you adjust the grayscale it has a pervasive effect for that level throughout the cube. Will it be better? Worse? Is it a large effect or a small effect?

None of those questions can be answered in a an definitive way. It will always depend on the display under testing, so the only way to truly answer the question is to run testing after you make the adjustments to see if something like the color checker got better or worse.

Presumably the need to adjust grayscale comes about because of the disruptive effect of the calibration on grayscale, otherwise it would still be OK.
In other words, which is more important to get accurate?

Should the grayscale disruption be ignored or is it a case of iteration?
post #1479 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Presumably the need to adjust grayscale comes about because of the disruptive effect of the calibration on grayscale, otherwise it would still be OK.
In other words, which is more important to get accurate?

Should the grayscale disruption be ignored or is it a case of iteration?

Honestly I haven't done enough testing on enough displays to say definitively.

It may be a case where adjusting the grayscale causes color checker dE to go up slightly, but at a level that will be invisible to the eye, but causes less artifacts on white gradient backgrounds (quite common on TV these days) which can be easily seen.

Or it may be that adjusting the grayscale causes the dE to push up to 4 or 5 where the color error becomes more obvious.

OTOH if that was the case, I don't' see the harm of re-running cube after tweaking the grayscale. So doing an iteration may get you incrementally better results. Like I said earlier I believe the results will be dictated more from the individual behavior of the display.
Edited by sotti - 4/17/13 at 9:25am
post #1480 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Honestly I haven't done enough testing on enough displays to say definitively.

It may be a case where adjusting the grayscale causes color checker dE to go up slightly, but at a level that will be invisible to the eye, but causes less artifacts on white gradient backgrounds (quite common on TV these days) which can be easily seen.

Or it may be that adjusting the grayscale causes the dE to push up to 4 or 5 where the color error becomes more obvious.

OTOH if that was the case, I don't' see the harm of re-running cube after tweaking the grayscale. So doing an iteration may get you incrementally better results. Like I said earlier I believe the results will be dictated more about the individual behavior of the display.

Thanks as always Joel.
post #1481 of 2247
Yes, thank you Joel, I will continue to play with it and report back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Presumably the need to adjust grayscale comes about because of the disruptive effect of the calibration on grayscale, otherwise it would still be OK.

The need arises because I have to tweak the bottom end (5%) manually and sometimes revisit that after some subjective viewing, as the low light areas are more easily seen than measured.
post #1482 of 2247
On a side note; when running a large LUT cube it is advisable not to run a grayscale at all.
What I have been finding is the larger the LUT cube the better the grayscale comes out.

However at this point I would advise you guys to stick with the 125 point LUT cube and 21 point grayscale. The only problem with getting the Cube/GS for your Radiance Mini 3D right (imo) is not with Calman but with the meter/s you are using and there ability to read low light. Also if you profile getting a good profile is important along with window size and placement of your meter. Also little things like if you are calibrating a plasma, let your plasma warm up for a few hours. Let your meter warm up for 30 min off screen, and of-course follow Calman's per calibration setup.

ss
post #1483 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Yes, thank you Joel, I will continue to play with it and report back.
The need arises because I have to tweak the bottom end (5%) manually and sometimes revisit that after some subjective viewing, as the low light areas are more easily seen than measured.

If a 16 point RGB calibration is performed prior to 3D calibration, the Autocal will get it very accurate.
Then, running the 3D calibration may potentially disrupt this grayscale accuracy at various grayscale points (not only the ones you have trouble with).

Apologies if you thought I was highjacking your point..
post #1484 of 2247
I'm thinking about buying a Mini to fix my Sharp Elite's gamut errors. What are the specific calibration steps to take for the Sharp Elite? What targets should I hit first using the TV's controls befure the cube autocal? Should the IVC option be set to 'Off' or 'Local Dimming On' for the cube calibration?
post #1485 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

The iScan DUO now has built in ISF Pluge Test Patterns!

This is an incredible update to the already available ISF DAY/NIGHT modes.

http://www.avproalliance.com/pages/blog-article?r=YJFY06AVKJ&send_to=%2Fpages%2Fhome&inf_contact_key=35272a6aa3d133b83c8deb86194648bbb91a923995014641264c7af803f5df42

For those who want a less serious Manual on the Duo:

http://www.avproalliance.com/pages/wiki-view-item?r=1NO090MZS9&send_to=%2Fpages%2Fwiki-main-temppage

One question: he recommends changing any inputs going into the Duo to `i', and let the Duo change it to the `p' - anyone ever heard of this?


For some reason not stated - this Duo Upgrade is currently Not Available - Problems?
post #1486 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

For some reason not stated - this Duo Upgrade is currently Not Available - Problems?

The update is still in testing and was posted on a partner site when it should not have. The new firmware adds white and black pluge test patterns.

Stay tuned
Edited by turbe - 4/18/13 at 8:12am
post #1487 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

The update is still in testing and was posted on a partner site when it should not have. The new firmware adds white and black pluge test patterns.

Stay tuned

When I saw it had been pulled, I debated installing it on my Duo last night. I decided it must have been pulled for a reason, so did a pass.

It's here! Friday Nights New Beta Release 1188

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=4716

Happy calibrating for the weekend!
Edited by p5browne - 4/19/13 at 4:11pm
post #1488 of 2247
Beta Release 5.1.1.1188
X-Rite i1Display OEM ( profiled with ColorMunki Photo)
Lumagen Mini ( reference patterns)
Panasonic VT50

100% autocal ISF DAY results Panny VT50


Edited by LBJ2 - 4/21/13 at 7:11am
post #1489 of 2247
One also has to watch the Radiance XE Calman Menus on the various Workflos and make sure they're on 100% Stimulus and 21 Point.

OK on the Duo since it uses the Default 75%. But still again, different Work Flos, for both, may be on 10 or 11 Point, and must be changed to 11 and 21. Lots of things to remember before starting, and it's more fun remembering when you do this late at night. Latest finding, and never even thought about it, was doing the Profiling: Stimulus Level for the Duo is the Default 75%, but for the XE, one must remember to put up to 100%. Finally realized this last night, so before starting the calibration, set to 100%, did the Profiling, then continued on. Results: quite a bit better then when I was Profiling for the XE at 75%. (Previously, was paying attention to the Profiling, and overlooking the Stimulus Level.)
Even if not Profiling, go into the Meter Menu when using the Lumagens, and change the Stimulus Level to 100.

Boy, am I ever going to have fun if dementia ever sets in!
post #1490 of 2247
Really? I don't remember having to do that before, but recall some feature being added recently based on users request. Not sure why it would a problem for the Radiance to use 75%. Doesn't it depend more on what your display is capable of?
post #1491 of 2247
I just re-lamped my RS20 and re-ran auto-cal for 2.2 gamma and it's definitely brighter but just too stark! It appears there's too much contrast. I know... sacrilege, right? Shadow detail is excellent, but images are just too stark... for example shadow areas are too dark in daylight scenes. It doesn't look realistic.

Any suggestions? I'm think of of trying a re-cal with a 2.0 gamma (shudder) and see if I like it any better.
post #1492 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Really? I don't remember having to do that before, but recall some feature being added recently based on users request. Not sure why it would a problem for the Radiance to use 75%. Doesn't it depend more on what your display is capable of?

I guess it works for my display. One would have to try it both ways and see which is preferred. Again, user preference as to the result. But, the Greyscale and Colours result were the best I've see so far, without the Greyscale going out of whack after the 125 Point 3D LUT.
post #1493 of 2247
The way I understood it (please correct me if I misunderstood) and the reason this feature was requested, was to prevent reduction in light output when one or more of the primaries does not saturate properly at 100%. Many sets are having this problem, namely older JVC projectors:

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=4598

If your set falls into this category then you should get a little more light output if you do the calibration at 75% - however accuracy of the 100% points will sacrificed. If you are using a powerful "light cannon" or flat panel TV then you probably aren't lacking any light output and should go with 100%.
post #1494 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBJ2 View Post

Beta Release 5.1.1.1188
X-Rite i1Display OEM ( profiled with ColorMunki Photo)
Lumagen Mini ( reference patterns)
Panasonic VT50

100% autocal ISF DAY results Panny VT50

Now you got something. wink.gif

There is a old saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do"

iow, Follow Calman's 3D LUT cube setup as I think you did. To many here seem to be getting to worried about all the different charts Calman offer's and not spending enough time figuring out how to setup there pre settings, and that includes profiling, window size, were you are setting your meter (on/off screen and distance) and what the strength and weaknesses of your meter/s and of-course the other basic's. Once you have found the best compromise in bringing the above all together, then you may want to differ a little on your Gamma settings, threshold settings and your meter settings in Calman.

I understand that we all have different draw backs with are display's so there is no right way to bring all of this together. However Calman does try and point us in the right direction, and for the most part Calman does a fairly nice job of this for most all of are commercial displays.

ss
Edited by sillysally - 4/21/13 at 2:37pm
post #1495 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

I just re-lamped my RS20 and re-ran auto-cal for 2.2 gamma and it's definitely brighter but just too stark! It appears there's too much contrast. I know... sacrilege, right? Shadow detail is excellent, but images are just too stark... for example shadow areas are too dark in daylight scenes. It doesn't look realistic.

Any suggestions? I'm think of of trying a re-cal with a 2.0 gamma (shudder) and see if I like it any better.

Try using BT.1886 for the gamma curve.

Should do a nice job of giving good shadow detail, but still having a higher gamma further up the ramp. I use it frequently and like it quite a bit.
post #1496 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Try using BT.1886 for the gamma curve.

Should do a nice job of giving good shadow detail, but still having a higher gamma further up the ramp. I use it frequently and like it quite a bit.

Thanks... but shadow detail was fine. I could see everything.

As I understand it, BT.1886 is for lower cr displays. Mine measures 24,000:1. Is that low enough to make good use of BT.1886? I should give it a shot, I guess.
post #1497 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Thanks... but shadow detail was fine. I could see everything.

As I understand it, BT.1886 is for lower cr displays. Mine measures 24,000:1. Is that low enough to make good use of BT.1886? I should give it a shot, I guess.

BT.1886 adjusts based on the the contrast ratio of the display. It should be good for just about any display.
post #1498 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

BT.1886 adjusts based on the the contrast ratio of the display. It should be good for just about any display.

Thanks! Thanks a lot. I really appreciate you being here on a Sunday.
post #1499 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Try using BT.1886 for the gamma curve.

Should do a nice job of giving good shadow detail, but still having a higher gamma further up the ramp. I use it frequently and like it quite a bit.

Are you using that for a dark room or "living room" lighting?
Quote:
BT.1886 adjusts based on the the contrast ratio of the display. It should be good for just about any display.

My CR measures 1,000,000:1 but I have low light output - what will happen if I use BT.1886?
post #1500 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Are you using that for a dark room or "living room" lighting?
My CR measures 1,000,000:1 but I have low light output - what will happen if I use BT.1886?

Mine is a "dark room" dedicated theater. I'll let you know what I think.

So is that a CRT you have tha measures 1M:1?
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