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CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 57

post #1681 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

I've been tweaking and experimenting and ran a calibration during the day for the first time ever. It was actually more enjoyable than a night time calibration because I could actually see what I was doing... and I was happy with the results. I just reloaded my session to review and was wondering if there is any way to actually see the ISF settings created with AutoCal if you are not connected to the TV ? If not, than I guess this is a product improvement request for a future update.

I wanted to take a look at the Gamma adjustments because I have an odd spike at 90 IRE. Based on my previous manual calibrations, Gamma adjustments should be minimal but it looked like AutoCal had made some large tweaks to Gamma. I actually stepped back and adjusted Gamma manually and then saved my session but I'm fairly certain that my manual tweaks did not take. Is it not possible to make manual adjustments to an AutoCal run ?

Lastly, is anyone having problems with the "history" tab ? I can not load more than one session at a time. I open a second history tab and load a new session. It loads but the original session disappears. I'm running v5.1.1.

Oh, I'm also having sync problems with my i1 Display Pro. It never syncs the first time even though C5 shows that it sees the meter. I have to disconnect and then reconnect the meter and all is good after that.

There are 2 different DDC Controls where you can go in and tweak the AutoCal settings, and read the resulting settings. Upper right hand corner. One can be directly seen, the other is under the Workflo settings Tab beside it to the Left.
If you pull in a previous session, it's going to override your current one.
Sometimes it's best to leave Meter unininstalled until your computer has booted. Then insert the Meter.
post #1682 of 2247
Yesterday I calibrated my Samsung LED/LCD ( UND6000) for the first time. I ran through my typical setup and prep work in the Advanced HT workflow to include stabilizing 2PT before proceeding to 10Pt/Gama. Other than the shcok of measuring 81+ ftl ( compared to what I normally see with my VT50) most of the process went well and I came up with a pretty good result overall, but ran into a few issues in CMS.
  • I couldn't seem to get Red under control--was for the most part unresponsive ( even though the error wasn't too bad)
  • I couldn't figure out how to adjust 100% ( CMS) in the Samsung menu.

Thanks in advance for any advice/suggestions




Edited by LBJ2 - 6/3/13 at 6:37am
post #1683 of 2247
Red is under saturated. You can only move the dots in towards white with CMS, you can never move them out. You may want to try a different color gamut setting in the TV to see if there is one that is more saturated and then redo your calibration.
post #1684 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Red is under saturated. You can only move the dots in towards white with CMS, you can never move them out. You may want to try a different color gamut setting in the TV to see if there is one that is more saturated and then redo your calibration.

Thank you.
post #1685 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

If you pull in a previous session, it's going to override your current one.
What is the purpose of the history tabs if not for comparing sessions ? I thought the tutorial even stated that the history tabs could be used for comparisons. Does it only work for sessions/workflows in progress ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Sometimes it's best to leave Meter unininstalled until your computer has booted. Then insert the Meter.
I tried both ways... plugging in the meter first and starting C5 and starting C5 and then plugging in the meter. Made no difference. The meter is recognized, sync is set to "on", and yet I still get a sync error with the initial reading.

The above are minor and could be a little learning curve for me. My biggest concern was making manual adjustments with DDC after running AutoCal and then discovering that the changes I made did not appear to transmit to the display or only partially transmitted. There really needs to be a send or transmit button with the DDC control or some way to confirm the adjustments have been transmitted prior to saving the session and running the final report.
post #1686 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

What is the purpose of the history tabs if not for comparing sessions ? I thought the tutorial even stated that the history tabs could be used for comparisons. Does it only work for sessions/workflows in progress ?

Only for the session in progress.
post #1687 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

What is the purpose of the history tabs if not for comparing sessions ? I thought the tutorial even stated that the history tabs could be used for comparisons. Does it only work for sessions/workflows in progress ?
I tried both ways... plugging in the meter first and starting C5 and starting C5 and then plugging in the meter. Made no difference. The meter is recognized, sync is set to "on", and yet I still get a sync error with the initial reading.

The above are minor and could be a little learning curve for me. My biggest concern was making manual adjustments with DDC after running AutoCal and then discovering that the changes I made did not appear to transmit to the display or only partially transmitted. There really needs to be a send or transmit button with the DDC control or some way to confirm the adjustments have been transmitted prior to saving the session and running the final report.

I remember seeing a Commit Button somewhere. Now as to whether this has to be pushed at the end of each calibration, we will have to ask the Experts?
post #1688 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

I remember seeing a Commit Button somewhere. Now as to whether this has to be pushed at the end of each calibration, we will have to ask the Experts?

If there is a commit or transmit button for DDC, I hope someone chimes in. I think it worked fine when running AutoCal but, as I mentioned, something went awry after my manual tweaks.

The whole DDC set up is a little confusing. If you open a saved session and then open the DDC control, are the display settings those from the original session or those currently active on the TV ?

I suspect it shows only the currently active ISF settings from the TV... which means there is no way to correlate ISF settings with a saved session other than perhaps taking the time to type in all the settings at the end of a session. I wish there was a way to automatically record the ISF settings at the end of a session. Perhaps there is and I just don't see how.
post #1689 of 2247
CalMAN 5.1.2.1257 (Build 1257-0604.3) Open Beta Available 4 Download

Changes:

- Resolved issue where the headers of the .clt LUT file created for the Davio were incorrect.

- Resolved issue with the Pandora Pluto with the latest firmware which would cause multiple 1D LUT files to be written to the device.

- Resolved issue with cube calibrations using the BT1886 gamma formula

- Resolved issue with the ISF workflow's report sources which caused some fields to be blank in the report.

- When choosing to save data and view report, we have now added a prompt to select a report if CalMAN has not loaded one previously.

- Added drop down on report page to allow the user to select the report they wish to view.
post #1690 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

CalMAN 5.1.2.1257 (Build 1257-0604.3) Open Beta Available 4 Download

Changes:
...
- Resolved issue with cube calibrations using the BT1886 gamma formula
...

Anyone know, specifically, what this "issue" was? I couldn't get those little circles to move inside the little squares in the color-checker after a BT.1886 based calibration... is that the "issue"? I never heard anyone else comment about it so I just thought I had done something wrong.
post #1691 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Anyone know, specifically, what this "issue" was? I couldn't get those little circles to move inside the little squares in the color-checker after a BT.1886 based calibration... is that the "issue"? I never heard anyone else comment about it so I just thought I had done something wrong.

Basically yes, we found an issue where sometimes the termination thresholds were being calculated before we had the correct black offset. The symptom was usually that the calibration could take 2-3x longer.
post #1692 of 2247
I'm calibrating again and just noticed that for the past few updates CalMAN no longer makes the film rewinding noise (or whatever it is) and display the "Calibration Completed" dialog box at the end of an auto-cal.

It's no big deal... it's easy to tell when it's done. But this dialog box displayed the elapsed time and it was nice to see how long it took.
post #1693 of 2247
I like what I see after last nights BT1886 calibration, but can't figure out why 100 is 2.4 but 60 is 2.2.
Must be missing a setting somewhere. When I looked at the Gamma Curve, it didn't drop off to below 10.
Calibration was quicker and with better results, except for the above.
post #1694 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

I like what I see after last nights BT1886 calibration, but can't figure out why 100 is 2.4 but 60 is 2.2.
Must be missing a setting somewhere. When I looked at the Gamma Curve, it didn't drop off to below 10.
Calibration was quicker and with better results, except for the above.

Polly says, "What?" A BT.1886 curve should show the "effective" gamma dropping as you go from 100% stimulus down to 0% stimulus, assuming you have a non-zero black-level. How fast it (effective gamma) will "drop" is entirely dependent upon the actual measured black-level (or MLL if that's what you're trying for..)

There's an excel spreadsheet (or two) floating around somewhere in here that will help you check the sanity of your results ... all you need to do is enter your measured black-level luminance and white-level luminance.

But, since I can't decipher what you mean by "10", "100", "60," 2.2 or 2.4, my response could be completely meaningless in this context.

Polly want's an adult beverage now. biggrin.gif

PS: Gamma "numbers" are actually quite meaningless within the context of the BT.1886 transfer function.
Edited by HDTVChallenged - 6/6/13 at 10:55am
post #1695 of 2247
Joel,

You guys may want to work on your large LUT (3375) and eecolor. Using CalMAN 5.1.2.1257 (Build 1257-0604.3) Open Beta the results were all over the place, for the Gamut.
Calman 5 seemed to pick up on the eecolor and do its thing, I also did a full DDC reset. Where CM seems to be having a problem is in the low light readings.
Time wise to run a 3375 LUT is about the same time it takes to run a 4913 profile with LS, about 3 hours and 20 minutes. However CM made about 6650 reads as where LS makes 4913 reads, so CM clearly is reading much faster than LS. Point being is you make want to adjust your LLH.

The display I was running the LUT on is a 65VT60, Mini as the pattern generator and K10-A meter.

ss
post #1696 of 2247
I recently received a Panasonic ST60 plasma TV and the Calman 5 Home Tutorial calibration kit. I read a gamma of 0.3 on the two point gamma test using the Spectracal C3 meter and the AVS HD calibration disc! (This software does not give a ten point gamma reading, but on the ten point greyscale test, it does indicate an off-the-charts high brightness for the grey screens below 100%, a result consistent with the measured two point gamma.) Obviously, this can’t be right. Let’s say the gamma should be 2.0, for convenience. Then if I reduce signal luminosity voltage by one half, the display luminosity should be reduced to ¼. But if the gamma is 0.3, and luminosity voltage is halved, display luminosity falls to only 80% (½^0.3), and the picture would be an unwatchable white. But the picture looks OK. I checked my meter and software by reading gamma on two other TVs, both LCDs, and I measured a gamma of 1.9 on both these.
My original working hypothesis was that the anti-reflective screen on the ST60 series was interfering with a reading. My hypothesis was only partially confirmed. On another ST60 of different screen size in my dealer’s showroom, I measured an identical 0.3 gamma, but on a S60, which has no screen treatment, I measured 0.6. A difference, but not enough to explain the difference between the measurement and the target.
I also made measurements with a different AVS HD disc (from a file downloaded and burned to DVD) as well as the disc that came with the kit, and I uninstalled and reinstalled the software, but it made no difference. I double checked the workflow settings in Calman. Of course, I am using plasma as the target display.
I contacted Spectracal customer service; first, they too called this gamma reading nonsensical, suggest I ignore it, and complete the other calibration steps. But I was unable to get any reliable readings on the 10 pt. GS test, or the CMS settings. They then offered to recalibrate or replace the meter; but I think this would be both unnecessarily costly for them and useless for me. I do not think a defective meter is the problem, because it appears to read colors accurately. When I measured the color temperature at the Panasonic Warm2 setting, it read 6450 degrees. I know that is correct, because in all the recommended calibration settings for Panasonic plasmas, the recommended setting is Warm2 to achieve the target temp. of 6500. Also, the color gamut readings are spot on, and it does read gamma correctly for LCDs.
What I would like now is for a reader of this forum to try to replicate these gamma readings using this meter, software, and TV. If they can’t, please tell me what I am doing wrong. If they can, then Spectracal should assign a QC team to see what the problem is. Although LCDs may have the lion’s share of the TV market, those concerned about picture quality and who are the target market for this product tend to buy plasma TVs.
post #1697 of 2247
Calman works great for plasmas not sure why you are getting those reading but something is obviously not correct in your setup
post #1698 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenT in SLC View Post

I recently received a Panasonic ST60 plasma TV and the Calman 5 Home Tutorial calibration kit. I read a gamma of 0.3 on the two point gamma test using the Spectracal C3 meter and the AVS HD calibration disc! (This software does not give a ten point gamma reading, but on the ten point greyscale test, it does indicate an off-the-charts high brightness for the grey screens below 100%, a result consistent with the measured two point gamma.) Obviously, this can’t be right. Let’s say the gamma should be 2.0, for convenience. Then if I reduce signal luminosity voltage by one half, the display luminosity should be reduced to ¼. But if the gamma is 0.3, and luminosity voltage is halved, display luminosity falls to only 80% (½^0.3), and the picture would be an unwatchable white. But the picture looks OK. I checked my meter and software by reading gamma on two other TVs, both LCDs, and I measured a gamma of 1.9 on both these.
My original working hypothesis was that the anti-reflective screen on the ST60 series was interfering with a reading. My hypothesis was only partially confirmed. On another ST60 of different screen size in my dealer’s showroom, I measured an identical 0.3 gamma, but on a S60, which has no screen treatment, I measured 0.6. A difference, but not enough to explain the difference between the measurement and the target.
I also made measurements with a different AVS HD disc (from a file downloaded and burned to DVD) as well as the disc that came with the kit, and I uninstalled and reinstalled the software, but it made no difference. I double checked the workflow settings in Calman. Of course, I am using plasma as the target display.
I contacted Spectracal customer service; first, they too called this gamma reading nonsensical, suggest I ignore it, and complete the other calibration steps. But I was unable to get any reliable readings on the 10 pt. GS test, or the CMS settings. They then offered to recalibrate or replace the meter; but I think this would be both unnecessarily costly for them and useless for me. I do not think a defective meter is the problem, because it appears to read colors accurately. When I measured the color temperature at the Panasonic Warm2 setting, it read 6450 degrees. I know that is correct, because in all the recommended calibration settings for Panasonic plasmas, the recommended setting is Warm2 to achieve the target temp. of 6500. Also, the color gamut readings are spot on, and it does read gamma correctly for LCDs.
What I would like now is for a reader of this forum to try to replicate these gamma readings using this meter, software, and TV. If they can’t, please tell me what I am doing wrong. If they can, then Spectracal should assign a QC team to see what the problem is. Although LCDs may have the lion’s share of the TV market, those concerned about picture quality and who are the target market for this product tend to buy plasma TVs.

As cadett suggested, I repeated the test using windows rather than full screen. The results were more reasonable, but still off. I now read a gamma of 1.5 whereas the preset is 2.2. I probable could adjust the gamma gain controls to get a reading of 2.2, but the picture would then be unacceptably dark. I am now reverting to my original hypothesis that the screen filter on the ST60 series is interfering with an accurate reading with this meter. I did find a difference between the ST60 and S60 when using the full screen tests. I now have to retest an S60 with windows.

What's the theory underlying the need to do windows rather than full screen test?
post #1699 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenT in SLC View Post

What's the theory underlying the need to do windows rather than full screen test?

That is probably your sticking point yes.

Plasma's use APL circuits to limit total power, so the light output rolls off extremely fast as you approach white. This means that you'll get excessively low gamma readings when measuring the full screen patterns, even though intrascene gamma would measure much differently.

Use any of the discs that have constant APL patterns to see a more true representation of how your screen performs.
post #1700 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

I like what I see after last nights BT1886 calibration, but can't figure out why 100 is 2.4 but 60 is 2.2.
Must be missing a setting somewhere. When I looked at the Gamma Curve, it didn't drop off to below 10.
Calibration was quicker and with better results, except for the above.

OK, something not jibing when you setup the BT1886.
Tonight did the wife's set with the iScan Duo, and the Enthusiast WorkFlow: AutoCal Greyscale - Rightside Gamma Log showing the curve it's following at 2.2, but on the calibrating RGB side, it's calibrating around the 2.4. Is this an issue, and error, or it's just selecting the BT1886 throws things out of whack?
post #1701 of 2247
Joel

So ... all this recent self "testing" over at MichealTLV's site and my "pollymorphism" wrt to "superwhite" values has led me to reconsider how I (and possibly we) are handling superwhite luma values with respect to various gamma functions, specifically wrt to BT1886.

When I originally read the BT1886 specifications, I interpreted them to mean that normalized luma values >1.0 were not allowed. Upon further review (tonight,) I caught the bit where they said reference white aka 235 digital should = luma 1.0, but there's nothing in the BT1886 spec that would appear to disallow the superwhite values.

So with that lengthy preamble, my question is how do we deal with superwhite values vs. the various gamma/transfer functions (assuming that we would want to calibrate on out to 254?) I did a quick recode of my spreadsheet, and none of the transfer functions "blew up" with the ~109% stimulus value. So, I would assume that the correct calibration approach would be to just take the functions' outputs at face value with the superwhite input values: True?

Since I'm still dragging my feet on moving over to Calman from my current stone knives and bear skins, I was just wondering how you guys were dealing with this issue.
post #1702 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

So with that lengthy preamble, my question is how do we deal with superwhite values vs. the various gamma/transfer functions (assuming that we would want to calibrate on out to 254?) I did a quick recode of my spreadsheet, and none of the transfer functions "blew up" with the ~109% stimulus value. So, I would assume that the correct calibration approach would be to just take the functions' outputs at face value with the superwhite input values: True?.

Yes for 255 in video levels we simply run 239/219 as our stimulus % through our "gamma/transfer functions" and get our target Yn values.
IE for a simple 2.2 power function 109% = 1.21 Yn.

In fact when we create a cube, by default on supported devices, we can adjust 100% output so that it is correctly spaced from 109%, so gamma tracks correctly all the way from black to peak white.
post #1703 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Yes for 255 in video levels we simply run 239/219 as our stimulus % through our "gamma/transfer functions" and get our target Yn values.
IE for a simple 2.2 power function 109% = 1.21 Yn.

In fact when we create a cube, by default on supported devices, we can adjust 100% output so that it is correctly spaced from 109%, so gamma tracks correctly all the way from black to peak white.

Excellent. PollyParrot has learned a new trick today. smile.gif
post #1704 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenT in SLC View Post

As cadett suggested, I repeated the test using windows rather than full screen. The results were more reasonable, but still off. I now read a gamma of 1.5 whereas the preset is 2.2. I probable could adjust the gamma gain controls to get a reading of 2.2, but the picture would then be unacceptably dark. I also measured a gamma of 1.5 on a Panasonic plasma that has no a screen filter, so my hypothesis that the screen filter causes the low reading is without support. Any other suggestions as what could be causing this low reading?

What's the theory underlying the need to do windows rather than full screen test?
post #1705 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenT in SLC View Post

Make sure AGC is turned off in the advanced picture settings, and use smaller size windows or APL windows as Joel suggests. Then you will probably get a gamma reading closer to the target gamma setting of the TV.
post #1706 of 2247
The setting of the Gamma to the BT1886 before calibrating, seems to be the last piece of the puzzle to get my LG 55LHXs to their peak of performance - love the results!
post #1707 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenT in SLC View Post

As cadett suggested, I repeated the test using windows rather than full screen. The results were more reasonable, but still off. I now read a gamma of 1.5 whereas the preset is 2.2. I probable could adjust the gamma gain controls to get a reading of 2.2, but the picture would then be unacceptably dark. I am now reverting to my original hypothesis that the screen filter on the ST60 series is interfering with an accurate reading with this meter. I did find a difference between the ST60 and S60 when using the full screen tests. I now have to retest an S60 with windows.

What's the theory underlying the need to do windows rather than full screen test?

Try using a Gamma setting in your ST60 of 2.4 and leave the 2.2 setting in CM where its at.

ss
post #1708 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

I remember seeing a Commit Button somewhere. Now as to whether this has to be pushed at the end of each calibration, we will have to ask the Experts?

Just noticed there is a commit button on the DDC, but it is just for the 3D Lut. Even so, I believe I now know why manual tweaks might not be saved... at least with the VT50. I was running an ISF Day calibration today with my i1 Pro and using AutoCal, but I went back to manually tweak the grayscale. Several times while doing so I got an error message that the display connection timed out. Several times I also discovered on my own (without an error message) that the TV connection was lost. I confirmed my suspicion by trying to turn on the ISF on-screen display within DDC... and sure enough, I got an error message that I was not connected to the TV.

I actually got a time out message just as I tried to start the AutoCal 2pt grayscale. While running AutoCal, it timed out once during the 10pt grayscale/gamma. I don't recall this happening when running AutoCal using my i1 Display3 Pro but, of course, the D3 Pro is faster.

Another problem I had was a large spike in Gamma at 90 IRE running AutoCal with my i1 Display3 Pro. All else looked pretty good on the final report, but I recently double-checked my black level settings from this and other calibration runs using the D3 Pro and discovered that black had a reddish hue and was being clipped. I could see the red bias on the AVS HD black level pattern and no matter how high I turned up the brightness setting on the TV, I could not see anything below video level 16. I've come to the conclusion that my brand new i1 D3 Pro is defective and I am waiting for feedback from X-Rite. I've tried using my i1 D3 Pro with X-Rite's i1 Profiler on my VT50, and the results are worse yet. Black is completely crushed and I would guess gamma is approaching double digits, if that is feasible. Just goes to show you can't completely trust charts and graphs if your meter isn't working as it should. The odd thing is that the i1 D3 Pro seems to provide decent profiles on my LCD monitors.

I think the above problem with the i1 D3 Pro may also be why I was having problems syncing it in C5 and profiling it to my i1 Pro. I was getting an out-of-range error from C5 about half the time when attempting to profile.
post #1709 of 2247
Is there a way to change the settings in Calman to allow for calibrating color at 75% saturation/100% luminance in the Advanced Workflow? Or is this something that can only be done in the Quick Analysis Workflow? I have a Panasonic VT50 and have been mostly satisfied with the results I have gotten using the typical 100% saturation/75% luminance points for the CMS. Green, magenta, and yellow are all off a bit at the lower saturation levels, so I would like to try calibrating at 75% saturation/100% luminance just to see if there is any improvement.
post #1710 of 2247
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