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CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 8

post #211 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

On Calman 4 under Inital Settings Display Control you could take a reading and show what value you were getting. ie: My wife's favourite Samsung - 9500K! (Which I'm not allowed to change!) My calibrated sets, in and around the 6500K.
I know about the lower right hand box, Will have to check if there's any values there tonight.
Hmmm,
post #212 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Yes it is for spectros only.
The Color Matching Function or CMF is what turns the spectral data in to XYZ data. XYZ data is suppose to mirror the sensitivity of the three different cone types in the eye. The original 1931 CMF has some deficiencies in the way it accounts for near ultra-violet light. This is mainly because the technology they used to run their experiments didn't have a lot of near ultra-violet. The 10-degrees CMF like the 1964 CIE, are for large field of view color analysis and therefore aren't particularly relevant to video content. The newest 2-degree CMFs like the CIE 2007 CMF seeks to correct the issues with the 1931 CMF. But it didn't stop at the CIE 2007, and we have modified version of that CMF as well.
The problem that gets solved is the one where two displays read the same x,y,Y coordinates yet look different. A CRT and wide gamut CCFL almost always look different, even when they measure exactly the same on the CS-2000. Also Xenon bulb projectors rarely match standard UHP projection. When you switch to newer CMFs, you'll now get different x,y,Y values for these displays that were previously reporting a match. So you can do a much better job matching different display technologies with these newer CMFS.
The real catch to using any of these, is that since D65 has a spectral definition (it is not 0.3127,0.329, but a specific spectral output) so when you change the CMF, you change the location of D65. But the primary locations for rec.709, or any of the other standards don't have spectral definitions. The primaries are defined in the 1931 space assuming the 1931 CMF. So until we have new standards that account for using a different CMF we are stuck using the 1931CMF for anything other than trying to match to a LCD to a rec.709 calibrated CRT.
Of course a Colorimeter profiled off a spectro using a new CMF, would then take on the properties of the new CMF.

sotti, have 2 follow up questions to this great post:

1) is the new modified CMF version you mention an official successor to CIE 2007 or is it your own custom CMF based off CIE 2007 ?

2) I'm probably misunderstanding your post, but you're saying that "Rec 709 does not spectral definitions" and then you say "we are stuck using the 1931CMF for anything other than trying to match to a LCD to a rec.709 calibrated CRT"... so can you or can you not use any of these new CMF today to match a display to a rec 709 reference CRT ?

Thanks.

- M
post #213 of 2247
Hi,

wanna make sure I understand the new Calman 5 model correctly:

1) does Calman 5 Enthusiast support all meters (spectro & colorimeter) by default or is it necessary to purchase add-on meter licenses as it was in Calman 4 ? I will use an i1Pro and an i1D3...

2) Calman 5 Enthusiast (or higher) is required for the Autocal 3D cube of the Lumagen Radiance ? Calman 5 Control would not be sufficient, correct ?


Thanks.

- M
post #214 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Hi,
wanna make sure I understand the new Calman 5 model correctly:
1) does Calman 5 Enthusiast support all meters (spectro & colorimeter) by default or is it necessary to purchase add-on meter licenses as it was in Calman 4 ? I will use an i1Pro and an i1D3...
2) Calman 5 Enthusiast (or higher) is required for the Autocal 3D cube of the Lumagen Radiance ? Calman 5 Control would not be sufficient, correct ?
Thanks.
- M

Your answers are there:
http://store.spectracal.com/calman5/licenses
http://store.spectracal.com/support/hardware-support.html
Edited by ConnecTEDDD - 9/29/12 at 12:53am
post #215 of 2247

yeah, saw that... as by my original question WANNA MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO ADD-ON FEES... ;-)

a couple of check marks on a HTML table can mean a lot of things... the add-on system in v4 was (let's say it nicely) not so great IMO...
post #216 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

yeah, saw that... as by my original question WANNA MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO ADD-ON FEES... ;-)
a couple of check marks on a HTML table can mean a lot of things... the add-on system in v4 was (let's say it nicely) not so great IMO...

Can't be more clear if you read the specs of each version.
http://store.spectracal.com/calman5-licenses
post #217 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Can't be more clear if you read the specs of each version.
http://store.spectracal.com/calman5-licenses

hahahaha... man, 2 posts (with inconclusive info) instead of a short answer... ;-)

alright, not sure what another link that simply states "Support of additional meters and processors not previously available at home" makes "more clear", but I guess (read: hope) what you're trying to say here is that there are no add-on fees for any of the supported meters (note: plural)... ;-)

just to make this clear again: reading these statements (on the spectracal website) as a NEW user, would make u assume everything is included to get going after purchase of the sw... as a former v4 user, u KNOW that was not the case with this sw... therefore clarification is better than guessing... cool.gif
post #218 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

hahahaha... man, 2 posts (with inconclusive info) instead of a short answer... ;-)
alright, not sure what another link that simply states "Support of additional meters and processors not previously available at home" makes "more clear", but I guess (read: hope) what you're trying to say here is that there are no add-on fees for any of the supported meters (note: plural)... ;-)
just to make this clear again: reading these statements (on the spectracal website) as a NEW user, would make u assume everything is included to get going after purchase of the sw... as a former v4 user, u KNOW that was not the case with this sw... therefore clarification is better than guessing... cool.gif

CalMAN 4 was another story, as talking for CalMAN 5, do you see any Add-On Option Anywhere? SO there are no Add-Ons for CalMAN 5.
post #219 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

CalMAN 4 was another story, as talking for CalMAN 5, do you see any Add-On Option Anywhere? SO there are no Add-Ons for CalMAN 5.

THANK YOU ;-))))))
post #220 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

Hmmm,

Seniors moment! Was paying too much attention to the round thingy, getting into the square which-m-callit, to notice the 6500K above!
Now that I've noticed where the value is, my calibration Greyscale produced 6500K, and in the near vicinity, but when I went back to Calman 4 to do a reading, it's telling me 6740! Has the 6500K being slightly moved on the curve?
post #221 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Hi,
wanna make sure I understand the new Calman 5 model correctly:
1) does Calman 5 Enthusiast support all meters (spectro & colorimeter) by default or is it necessary to purchase add-on meter licenses as it was in Calman 4 ? I will use an i1Pro and an i1D3...
2) Calman 5 Enthusiast (or higher) is required for the Autocal 3D cube of the Lumagen Radiance ? Calman 5 Control would not be sufficient, correct ?
Thanks.
- M
1) Enthusiast supports all the hardware we are considering to be consumer hardware. We still exclude higher end meters and pattern generators.

2) There isn't anything higher than enthusiast for CalMAN Home Theater. CalMan for business has different levels of functionality, CalMAN for business isn't nessicarly an upgrade from enthusiast. In fact the only product that is really an "upgrade" from enthusiast would be CalMAN for business Ultimate.

The Radiance color cube 3D lut calibration requires Enthusiast.


Aside from CalPC client licesnses we have no plans to sell any kind of add-on for version 5.
post #222 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Seniors moment! Was paying too much attention to the round thingy, getting into the square which-m-callit, to notice the 6500K above!
Now that I've noticed where the value is, my calibration Greyscale produced 6500K, and in the near vicinity, but when I went back to Calman 4 to do a reading, it's telling me 6740! Has the 6500K being slightly moved on the curve?
Don't know.
I spent a day with RC1 and thought my meters were broke.
I had a good cal on my plasma, took a A board backup incase I screwed the cal up.
Spent a day with RC1 only to be very unhappy with the results.
Thank goodness I had the A board backup to reinstall the original cal I made with V4.5
post #223 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

sotti, have 2 follow up questions to this great post:
1) is the new modified CMF version you mention an official successor to CIE 2007 or is it your own custom CMF based off CIE 2007 ?
No we aren't working on CMFs at SpectraCal. The modified CIE was done by Janos Schanda working at the University of Pannonia in Hungary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

2) I'm probably misunderstanding your post, but you're saying that "Rec 709 does not spectral definitions" and then you say "we are stuck using the 1931CMF for anything other than trying to match to a LCD to a rec.709 calibrated CRT"... so can you or can you not use any of these new CMF today to match a display to a rec 709 reference CRT ?
Thanks.
- M

D65 with CIE31 is .3127, .329
D65 with modified CIE170 is 0.3144, y 0.331

We can calculate that because we have a spectrum for D65, we have no spectral data for red, green or blue for rec.709, so we can't calculate what the new targets would be with a different color matching funtion.

You can measure a CRT with the new color matching functions then use the measured cooridinates as targets for calibrating an LCD.
post #224 of 2247
Me, this is the BEST PQ I've ever seen on my LGs! (2 - 55LHXs, and 1 - 55LV9500) For 3 years back and forth between Calman and ChromaPure, calibrations always being left short. Will now try this on my old 55LH90 that I sold to my daughter.
Now, PQ is brighter, B&W has absolutely NO Yellow Tinges at all: all previous calibrations did. Which is why I'm asking if the 6500K has been moved along the curve.
post #225 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Me, this is the BEST PQ I've ever seen on my LGs! (2 - 55LHXs, and 1 - 55LV9500) For 3 years back and forth between Calman and ChromaPure, calibrations always being left short. Will now try this on my old 55LH90 that I sold to my daughter.
Now, PQ is brighter, B&W has absolutely NO Yellow Tinges at all: all previous calibrations did. Which is why I'm asking if the 6500K has been moved along the curve.
Good. thumbs.
LED/LCD tvs huh.
post #226 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Seniors moment! Was paying too much attention to the round thingy, getting into the square which-m-callit, to notice the 6500K above!
Now that I've noticed where the value is, my calibration Greyscale produced 6500K, and in the near vicinity, but when I went back to Calman 4 to do a reading, it's telling me 6740! Has the 6500K being slightly moved on the curve?

I don't understand what you're referring to re: "Has the 6500K being slightly moved on the curve?" Do you mean D65? If so, no. It's the same at x=0.31271, y=0.32902. The actual temperature is 6503.6K.
post #227 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

On Calman 4 under Inital Settings Display Control you could take a reading and show what value you were getting. ie: My wife's favourite Samsung - 9500K! (Which I'm not allowed to change!) My calibrated sets, in and around the 6500K.
I know about the lower right hand box, Will have to check if there's any values there tonight.

Just to be clear... you do understand that 6500K is ALMOST a worthless concept when it comes to calibrating video displays, right? You can have images that range from MUCH TOO GREEN to MUCH TOO MAGENTA and they can all measure 6500K.

d65 is the calibration standard. You want to start your video calibration with the TV's Picture Mode that is closest to the d65 point (smallest dE). You do NOT want to start your calibration with the Picture Mode that is closest to 6500K because at 6500K you can have huge green or magenta errors and still measure 6500K. Your "goal" should always be d65, not 6500K.

So what you want to do is check the dE (I use both dEuv and dE1994) for each picture mode and start with the one that has the smallest dE when referenced to the d65 point. It's time to step away from color temperature as a calibration concept because it really relates mostly to the balance of red and blue without being much influenced by green. d65 requires all 3 colors to be accurate (or closer to accurate).
post #228 of 2247
6500K is only referenced at the very end on my calibration, to see if my calibration has resulted in that particular reference.
When the ISF Pro Calibrator was here, he mentioned he had to move the 6500K reference point along the curve, in order to get my set to calibrate. Unfortunately, he left my set looking Green, my wifes looking Golden, and the basement system looking kind of iffy.
My concern was, why am I now around the 6500K reference after calibration with Calman 5, but reading 6740 in Calman 4? What is causing this discrepancy? (Meter being used: Spectracal C6 profiled off the non-enhanced i1Pro.) .
post #229 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

6500K is only referenced at the very end on my calibration, to see if my calibration has resulted in that particular reference.
When the ISF Pro Calibrator was here, he mentioned he had to move the 6500K reference point along the curve, in order to get my set to calibrate. Unfortunately, he left my set looking Green, my wifes looking Golden, and the basement system looking kind of iffy.
My concern was, why am I now around the 6500K reference after calibration with Calman 5, but reading 6740 in Calman 4? What is causing this discrepancy? (Meter being used: Spectracal C6 profiled off the non-enhanced i1Pro.) .

It may have something to do with the profiling, or it may have to do with CalMAN 5 using a software CMF for the i1 Pro (making it more accurate).

If you measure both with the c6, with the same settings, you'll get the same numbers.

With different profiles for each software, with CalMAN 5 using a software CMF for the i1 Pro, with different defaults for the C6 sync setting, there are alot of variables that may be causing the discrepency.

Also, just to steer this conversation to have more technical accuracy, it would help if you could list the actual x,y coordinates from each version of the software as those points are very specific where as color temp is very generic.
post #230 of 2247
Will take readings from the C6 only in both Versions and compare. Glad to hear that the i1Pro is more accurate in Version 5.
post #231 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

1) Enthusiast supports all the hardware we are considering to be consumer hardware. We still exclude higher end meters and pattern generators.
2) There isn't anything higher than enthusiast for CalMAN Home Theater. CalMan for business has different levels of functionality, CalMAN for business isn't nessicarly an upgrade from enthusiast. In fact the only product that is really an "upgrade" from enthusiast would be CalMAN for business Ultimate.
The Radiance color cube 3D lut calibration requires Enthusiast.
Aside from CalPC client licesnses we have no plans to sell any kind of add-on for version 5.

thank you, crystal clear.

So if one ever decides to upgrade to Calman Business Ultimate - from Calman Enthusiast - what would the upgrade price be ? The difference between the price for each version ?

We might have such a case in the future, where we need Calman Studio Or Calman Professional and we'll have Calman Enthusiast already...

Thanks.

- M
post #232 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You can measure a CRT with the new color matching functions then use the measured coordinates as targets for calibrating an LCD.

makes sense, thanks.

- M
post #233 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

thank you, crystal clear.
So if one ever decides to upgrade to Calman Business Ultimate - from Calman Enthusiast - what would the upgrade price be ? The difference between the price for each version ?
We might have such a case in the future, where we need Calman Studio Or Calman Professional and we'll have Calman Enthusiast already...
Thanks.
- M

Yes once you are in the SpectraCal family we take care of our own and make it easy to move up from consumer products into professional.
post #234 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It may have something to do with the profiling, or it may have to do with CalMAN 5 using a software CMF for the i1 Pro (making it more accurate).
If you measure both with the c6, with the same settings, you'll get the same numbers.
With different profiles for each software, with CalMAN 5 using a software CMF for the i1 Pro, with different defaults for the C6 sync setting, there are alot of variables that may be causing the discrepency.
Also, just to steer this conversation to have more technical accuracy, it would help if you could list the actual x,y coordinates from each version of the software as those points are very specific where as color temp is very generic.

Readings taken last night off the previous night's calibration after 4 hours warmup:
Calman 4 C6 - 6730K Calman 5 C6 - 6710K (Almost identical) Calman 5 C6 profiled from i1Pro non-enhanced - 6401K

But overall 10 to 100IRE Greyscale results:
Calman 4 C6 - Blue and Green more or less on the 100 line. Red at -5 from 10IRE to 100IRE
Calman 5 C6 - Blue and Green more or less on the 100 line. Red on the 100 line at 10IRE slowly tapering down to -5 at 100IRE,
Calman 5 profiled - Blue and Green more or less on the 100 line, Red at +1 from 10IRE to 100IRE.

So there is something different about Calman 4 versus Calman 5 on how it's reading the Red.
post #235 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Readings taken last night off the previous night's calibration after 4 hours warmup:
Calman 4 C6 - 6730K Calman 5 C6 - 6710K (Almost identical) Calman 5 C6 profiled from i1Pro non-enhanced - 6401K
But overall 10 to 100IRE Greyscale results:
Calman 4 C6 - Blue and Green more or less on the 100 line. Red at -5 from 10IRE to 100IRE
Calman 5 C6 - Blue and Green more or less on the 100 line. Red on the 100 line at 10IRE slowly tapering down to -5 at 100IRE,
Calman 5 profiled - Blue and Green more or less on the 100 line, Red at +1 from 10IRE to 100IRE.
So there is something different about Calman 4 versus Calman 5 on how it's reading the Red.

No we just read data from the meters and present it, no differences from v4 to 5. But to be able to commit on your findings we need xyY data. The charts from v4 to 5 can scale differently so a Red at -5 really means nothing without the xyY behind it.
post #236 of 2247
At which point in time does one take the readings? I calibrate after the set has warmed up for 4 hours.
Have left the set on for the day taking readings every 4 hours.
First 4 hours: Red Up, Blue Down
Second 4 hours: Red back down at the lower end, up in the Middle area, and Blue has now come back up.
2 More readings before I go to bed. But from past experiences, these values fluctuate up and down like a yoyo! Supply voltages up & down, weather damp & dry. I see some people are actually swapping out the unit's power supply and using batteries! Supposedly giving a cleaner PQ. In between viewings, recharge the batteries.
It's fine to get your x, y and Y right on the nose, but that's a passing value at that point in time. No wonder, when asked, do calibrators go back and relook at their calibrated settings, they say no because they aren't going to be the same any more. All we can do is get it as close as possible, then live with the eccentricities of electronics! And this is for an LED/LCD TV - what about projectors? Time to warm up, how old the bulb is, etc - man, we can calibrate to we're blue in the face, and never be done! (Then to, if you're hiding from the significant other!)

After 8 hours, left TV showing 100IRE Pattern for 2 Hours. Reading after 10 Hours, all the Blue from 10IRE to 100IRE dropped off to about -1, to -4, to -6, back to -4.
After 12 hours of now regular programming, Blue now back up to between -2 to -4.. Will stop at this point.
Edited by p5browne - 9/30/12 at 5:41pm
post #237 of 2247
If you calibrate after a 4-hour warm-up, but never watch TV for more than 2 hours at a time, you'll never get the TV to the same state it was in when it was calibrated. There's really no need to wait longer than 30 minutes to calibrate any display I've ever seen and some need much less than 30 minutes.

If I was ALWAYS doing 8-hour viewing sessions, I might use a 4-hour warmup for calibration. But I rarely, maybe never, have watched TV for 8 hours (maybe one time when really getting into a game, which happens maybe 1 time every 5 years). If your average viewing period is 4 hours or so, I wouldn't warmup for more than 1 hour before calibrating and would be perfectly fine with a 30 minute calibration.
post #238 of 2247
4 hours was a trade off point. The curve from turn on to about 4 hours was mainly up, then leveled off after that point. Calibrating before the 4 hours, led me to always have to start over by the time I got down to 10IRE. Have 3 TVs, 2 are 4 hour, 1 is 3 hour. Thankfully the new PQ I'm getting from the Calman 5 and my Meters still appears the best I've seen, no matter where the levels end up. (My average at night is about 4-6 hours viewing. With trips down to the basement to read, and write on the Forum, plus whatever else that needed doing during that time.)
post #239 of 2247
post #240 of 2247

My test was the time that it takes to get back to the previous day's calibration results. Hence the 4 hours, 4 hours and 3 hours on my 3 sets.

Another Positive for Calman 5: Previously on Calman 4, doing a Profile of the i1Pro Non-Enhanced to the C6, resulted in 3 totally different readings. Calman 5, the Profile reading is now very similiar to the i1Pro's.
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