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CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 17

post #481 of 1622
11/6/12 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Will the next release of CalMan 5 allow for more headroom when manually calibrating at 75% Saturations with the Duo as we discussed earlier?

I'm not sure what the state of the Duo will be for 5.0.4, which is small bug fixy updates.

5.1 should be a more significant update with more new features.
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post #482 of 1622
11/7/12 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I'm not sure what the state of the Duo will be for 5.0.4, which is small bug fixy updates.
5.1 should be a more significant update with more new features.

DDC is much better but frankly because it is usually not too far away from accurate after in my case 75% saturation pattern calibration, it is easier to use the Duo xy and Y controls for final tweaking.

I like the fact that x moves it horizontally and y moves it vertically irrespective of which colour is being adjusted.

I use IT.1886 gamma and again like to tweak it with Duo Controls (old habits die hard).
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post #483 of 1622
11/7/12 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

iScan Duo and AutoCal:
After getting frustrated with AutoCal and GreyScale, cleared all the Duo's settings to Zero and did a Manual Calibration getting a lot better results and an almost Flat line at 0 by +/- 0.5. With AutoCal, 0 +/- 2.
May check into that lowering of the dE someone mentioned above.
Over on the Duo Forum, download the new Panel Program for the Duo: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1180042/new-dvdo-iscan-duo-2-0-firmware-released/3300 Posting #3321
May try to manipulate the Duo's settings this way to try and get rid of the Peaks and Valleys caused by the 1 click up, or one click down, when what you really need is a half click.
Have completely turned off the AutoCal now.
A complete Manual calibration of GreyScale and CMS gave better results as of last night.

My experience is almost entirely with CalMAN 5.0.3. I have run many auto-cals for grayscale/gamma. For the most part the results are very good. Sometimes it does something odd at one point - usually 50% or 30%. Like it'll measure 50% to start with and get a dE of 1.2. Then try to fix it and make it worse. Then try to fit it and make it even worse. Then again try to fix it and make it worse yet. Then it'll leave it there, even though the initial one was better, and skip it and go to the next - then it'll complete the rest of the other points with great results. Likewise sometimes it'll leave me with a dE at say 30% of 1.8 and that's the best it can do. Then afterward I go into the DDC and make a few small tweaks to a channel or two and the result will be a dE of say 0.5. This gets frustrating because I feel that if I am able to make a few manual tweaks and get a much better dE improvement, then CalMAN certainly should be able to. So while it does a great job overall it seems there is room for optimizations. BTW I use a target dE of 0.7. Ideally I would use something closer to 0, but I found that sometimes CalMAN makes things worse after tweaks so once it gets under 0.7 I want it to quit and move to the next point before taking the chance of it making something worse.
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post #484 of 1622
11/7/12 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

My experience is almost entirely with CalMAN 5.0.3. I have run many auto-cals for grayscale/gamma. For the most part the results are very good. Sometimes it does something odd at one point - usually 50% or 30%. Like it'll measure 50% to start with and get a dE of 1.2. Then try to fix it and make it worse. Then try to fit it and make it even worse. Then again try to fix it and make it worse yet. Then it'll leave it there, even though the initial one was better, and skip it and go to the next - then it'll complete the rest of the other points with great results. Likewise sometimes it'll leave me with a dE at say 30% of 1.8 and that's the best it can do. ...

I got this once too. I fought it for hours... re-running and trying again. Then I just shut everything down, re-booted the laptop, reconnected the C6 and Lumagen and it was all normal again. Since I did a full re-boot and reconnect with the devices I don't know what fixed it. If it happens again I'll take the solution one step at a time and see.
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post #485 of 1622
11/7/12 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Quain View Post

We're always looking for ways to improve workflows. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "report showing before and after readings graphically (in a way that a novice would understand)." Do you mean provide examples that show what is considered 'good' so a novice would have something to compare to, or are you talking about simplifying the data/charts further? Can you provide examples/samples, please?
I think this is a good idea. I've brought this up with the development team previously. However, the response I received from our team is "it's probably not a good idea to start a calibration session at one point in time and pick it back up at a later point in time." This makes total sense and I see why we don't do this, but I also see your point in that you want to exit or shut down your computer and come back to the calibration shortly after. I'll run this by the team again (or they can reply here) and see if their is an appropriate way to handle this.
Thank you for pointing this out. It's always difficult to decide what hardware to include when explaining how to calibrate. Of course, with a dedicated pattern generator and display/processor that supports DDC the calibration is easier, but not everyone has all of the parts. We should probably base our webinars on different skill levels and hardware (example, Skill: Basic, Hardware: Meter and Pattern Disc. Skill: Intermediate, Hardware: Meter and DPG-2000, etc.)
Good point. We'll try and filter out any obvious or easy steps that can be found online.
Thank you for your suggestions and feedback. If anything else comes up please send me a PM or post here.

Hey Joshua,

On my learning wish list is are things like have been stated, but it doesn't hurt to reiterate:

1. Workflow construction, specifically adding custom pattern calls to existing pattern pickers (if this is possible). Reporting as well, but that or most of this could be handled with a manual (I suspect it is in the works, so not pressing). There are plenty of people who are providing good advice when asked -good job to all!
2. getting the most our of VForge, QD (common high level ones)
3. really setting up and tweaking lumagen and DVDO's (autocal/manual/different saturation targets)
4. testing some system chains for best processing and optimizing compatiblity (probably including wireless, streaming, and HTPC)
5. 3D calibration methods related to not only meters, but modes and testing.

It would take a lot of fleshing out these overgeneralized topics, but I spend most of my spare time reading various uses and opinions on all of these types of things, and it is always good to see other peoples' approaches to common calibration dilemnas and compromises.

Regards,
tbaudoin
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post #486 of 1622
11/7/12 at 1:10pm
Maybe there's Female and Male Duos?

Have gone back to Manual only - as they say, too frustrating seeing Calman getting it right, (and me saying `Yes!') then proceed to get it wrong, and leave it wrong. (then me saying `No!') Would re-do a complete reading after to check, but things remained the same. Re AutoCal several times, things would get fixed, or not, or stay fixed only to have something else go out of place..

History 1 - Manual Calibration and Reading - new History - then an AutoCal calibration and reading. Start another History, clear out the Duo, take another reading. Now compare History 1 to 3. I find big differences.

Thinking back on this, I may have tweaked the Peaks and Dips from the AutoCal in History 2, to flatten out the 10 to 100IRE Line. Thusly, when I removed the Duo's settings, I no longer had a line that looked like my History 1, when I did History 3.
Wife away next week, so will go back and Manually adjust her set, and the basement set.
One thing I definitely have found, once the more or less appropriate settings are obtained,they seem to last much longer between re-tweakings. (Or, being 3 years old, the sets are settling in?)
Edited by p5browne - 11/8/12 at 5:10pm
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post #487 of 1622
11/9/12 at 10:59am
Can someone give me instruction on how to create gamut correction/ICC profile? I'd like to try an ICC profile with MPC-HC to see if it makes a difference for video playback. When I use Custom Mode on my TV the color gamut is wider so I think an ICC profile could narrow it to D65.
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post #488 of 1622
11/10/12 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Maybe there's Female and Male Duos?
Have gone back to Manual only - as they say, too frustrating seeing Calman getting it right, (and me saying `Yes!') then proceed to get it wrong, and leave it wrong. (then me saying `No!') Would re-do a complete reading after to check, but things remained the same. Re AutoCal several times, things would get fixed, or not, or stay fixed only to have something else go out of place...

Yes - I have experienced this same exact thing. Sometimes it works just fine and I just have to tweak a few points. Other times it goes crazy trying calibrate one of the 5% steps. By this I mean it gets it wrong, then makes it worse trying to correct it, then makes it worse still, then worse again, finally giving up and leaving me with a dE over 5. In some cases it blows out the pattern, making it turn pink or yellow and the grayscale bars pattern shows major errors in that spot and the adjacent ones.

I too have have spent hours fussing with it. And sometimes it just works well the first time. Always makes me wonder what type of calibration session and time commitment I am about to have when starting...

I should add that I am using the latest CalMAN 5 with the Radiance.
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post #489 of 1622
11/11/12 at 6:20am
So, it's not just the iScan Duo!
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post #490 of 1622
11/11/12 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

So, it's not just the iScan Duo!
No its not just about the DUO and its not just Calman. CP can struggle too. It is better generally with the Lumagen. The less adjustment the calibration engine has to do, the less likely you are to get such odd results. On the Lumagen I was having a hard time until Tom told me to crank up the global color control a couple click above where you normally have it. It seems the Lumagen can pull luminance more easily then add it.

Also I find my DUO much less stable than the Lumagen. I have seen the DUO do some really flakey things. It can be clipping whites and colors badly and manually raising contrast to plus one on the DUO picture control will suddenly give very defined contrast boxe with excellent defiinition and separation from the background in Spears and Munsil all the way to the end of the patter with zero color clipping.

This is a weird one because this is better above whiter performance than the set can do natively at the same contrast/max white level. Then i go look at Spears and Munsil the next day and it is all messed up. With the DUO it just made sense to do a manual calibration, autocalibrate, then go hand tweak those spots that were still rough. I feel the DUO is a terribly unfinished piece and the fact that DVDO was not maintaining the firmware on it anymore made me give up on it. The Lumagen is not a pleasant interface to say the least. I don't have a lifetime to ivest in learning how to use it all manually thank goodness for auto-calibration or it would make me crazy.
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post #491 of 1622
11/11/12 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

No its not just about the DUO and its not just Calman. CP can struggle too. It is better generally with the Lumagen. The less adjustment the calibration engine has to do, the less likely you are to get such odd results. On the Lumagen I was having a hard time until Tom told me to crank up the global color control a couple click above where you normally have it. It seems the Lumagen can pull luminance more easily then add it.
Also I find my DUO much less stable than the Lumagen. I have seen the DUO do some really flakey things. It can be clipping whites and colors badly and manually raising contrast to plus one on the DUO picture control will suddenly give very defined contrast boxe with excellent defiinition and separation from the background in Spears and Munsil all the way to the end of the patter with zero color clipping.
This is a weird one because this is better above whiter performance than the set can do natively at the same contrast/max white level. Then i go look at Spears and Munsil the next day and it is all messed up. With the DUO it just made sense to do a manual calibration, autocalibrate, then go hand tweak those spots that were still rough. I feel the DUO is a terribly unfinished piece and the fact that DVDO was not maintaining the firmware on it anymore made me give up on it. The Lumagen is not a pleasant interface to say the least. I don't have a lifetime to ivest in learning how to use it all manually thank goodness for auto-calibration or it would make me crazy.

Hi Gary, I remember you used to have these problems with your Mitsi on previous versions of Duo firmware.

Did the latest version not solve this for you?

Most certainly my Duo is boringly stable, hardly shifting its position no matter whether Calman or CP.

Like you did I adjust Duo Picture Controls to adjust Contrast (to prevent clipping on colors and white in S & M disc) but this remains rock solid from a brightness / Contrast point of view. My LCD TV is peculiar in that it has massive brightness changes if I change from the Duo's current YCbCr 444 output to RGB.
Incidentally, my Colorchecker values are extremely good despite not having the benefit of 3D 5x5x5 calibration.

Color Checker 75% saturation patterns.jpg 124k .jpg file
Edited by PE06MCG - 11/11/12 at 8:47am
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post #492 of 1622
11/11/12 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Incidentally, my Colorchecker values are extremely good despite not having the benefit of 3D 5x5x5 calibration.
I get good results also with the Duo with no issues to speak of.


Pre Calibration
click for larger image
color_pre_s.jpg



Post Calibration
click for larger image
color_post_s.jpg
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post #493 of 1622
11/11/12 at 10:37am
Hi Praz, that looks remarkably like your magnificent Workflow that you allow us mere mortals to share..

Also, comparing your results with mine, looks as though I could probably improve.my results but maybe that is an academic improvement and perhaps no visual improvement will be seen?

Perhaps many of our Displays are a lot more linear than the we think?
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post #494 of 1622
11/11/12 at 2:21pm
Hello,

I'm a complete rookie in calibration process. I never did one myself.
I read a lot of informations though and now, I get to the point where I have to choose.
Calman V5 Basic, CP, HCFR ?

One thing is sure, I'll buy the i1 Display Pro 3 (OEM) to get the best results for less than $300.

Now, I don't want to compare the softwares here and launch a debate again, but I wanted to be sure about some things about CL5 :
With the basic version, will I be able to have the same results that I would have had with the other competitors (CP and HCFR) ? (Not in terms of usage, but in terms of results only)
Can I use the WoW Disney calibration BD with Calman 5 ?
And last, will I be able to get satisfying calibration result with CL5 Basic for a Panasonic Plasma V20, and for a VP like the upcoming JVC X35 ?

Thank you.
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post #495 of 1622
11/11/12 at 4:47pm
CalMAN basic gives you all the information you'll need to do a complete calibration. But it doesn't automate pattern generators or include our AutoCal.

You need CalMAN Control for that. But you can always buy Basic now and upgrade to control when you get your projector.
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post #496 of 1622
11/11/12 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by praz View Post

I get good results also with the Duo with no issues to speak of.
Pre Calibration
click for larger image

Post Calibration
click for larger image

Very nice result Praz. What display device are these measurements from?
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post #497 of 1622
11/11/12 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Praz, that looks remarkably like your magnificent Workflow that you allow us mere mortals to share..

Also, comparing your results with mine, looks as though I could probably improve.my results but maybe that is an academic improvement and perhaps no visual improvement will be seen?
Perhaps many of our Displays are a lot more linear than the we think?

Yes it is one of the layouts from my workflow. I don't get results as good as this using 100% saturation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Very nice result Praz. What display device are these measurements from?

This is from an inexpensive 55" Vizio.
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post #498 of 1622
11/11/12 at 10:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

CalMAN basic gives you all the information you'll need to do a complete calibration. But it doesn't automate pattern generators or include our AutoCal.
You need CalMAN Control for that. But you can always buy Basic now and upgrade to control when you get your projector.
thank you. Will my BD of WoW Disney work with Calman ? Is there enough patterns I can use and manually display ?
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post #499 of 1622
11/11/12 at 11:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlg33 View Post

thank you. Will my BD of WoW Disney work with Calman ? Is there enough patterns I can use and manually display ?

The WoW disc won't necessarily have all the patterns you want, but the GCD or AVS.709 disc would. We have prompt support for the AVS.709 disc right now and are always working to support discs with extended pattern support.
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post #500 of 1622
11/12/12 at 12:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The WoW disc won't necessarily have all the patterns you want, but the GCD or AVS.709 disc would. We have prompt support for the AVS.709 disc right now and are always working to support discs with extended pattern support.
Thanks.
Could you please give me an example of what would be missed in Wow ?

And GCD is the bluray that comes with CL, isn't it ?
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post #501 of 1622
11/12/12 at 12:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlg33 View Post

Thanks.
Could you please give me an example of what would be missed in Wow ?
And GCD is the bluray that comes with CL, isn't it ?

CL?

The GCD disc is available for download here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1406352/gcd-gamut-calibration-disk
It's not officially supported in CalMAN (meaning we have at a minimum prompts for the patterns and specific info about things like saturation sweeps).

The WoW disc definitely won't have saturation patterns. I haven't looked to see exactly what it has for patterns.
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post #502 of 1622
11/12/12 at 8:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

CL?
The GCD disc is available for download here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1406352/gcd-gamut-calibration-disk
It's not officially supported in CalMAN (meaning we have at a minimum prompts for the patterns and specific info about things like saturation sweeps).
The WoW disc definitely won't have saturation patterns. I haven't looked to see exactly what it has for patterns.

Use the AVS HD 709 disk for Brightness, Contrast, Tint and Colour to get the Correct values. Not the WOW.
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post #503 of 1622
11/13/12 at 12:26pm
Sotti/Derek, is Current Version of CalMAN already supporting this updated Plasma mode (for iD3/C6 Meters) that is currently supported by:

Light Illusion LightSpaceCMS
http://www.lightillusion.com/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=8&topic=83

The latest release of LightSpace CMS includes some new Probe Options for the i1D3.
We have been working with X-Rite on these new settings to improve the calibration results of the i1D3 probe.

The new options are within the standard Probe Options window and include two main changes.

First, in the 'Display Type' area of the menu is a new 'Plasma' setting (more on this below)
Second, in the 'Calibration Settings' are new settings for Plasma, Oled, and RG-Phosphor display colourimetry.

The Calibration Settings provide in-built offsets for the different displays, improving measured accuracy.
All fairly obvious, and a big help.

It is the new 'Display Type' 'Plasma' setting that is more interesting...
Although we have labeled it as 'Plasma' this setting can help with LCD displays too.
The 'Plasma' mode is really designed as a 'Burst' measurement mode for displays with pulsing characteristics.
And some LCD displays suffer this.

ChromaPure 2.3.2
http://www.chromapure.com/news.asp?utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email

•The Plasma mode now incorporates a new burst read mode provided by X-Rite that improves repeatability at low light levels on plasma displays. Our tests show that single readings on plasmas have very good repeatability down to 20% stimulus. To get good repeatability below that you may need to use Measurement Smoothing (but not on auto-cal). Continuous readings are fine at any level
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post #504 of 1622
11/13/12 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Sotti/Derek, is Current Version of CalMAN already supporting this updated Plasma mode (for iD3/C6 Meters) that is currently supported by:
Light Illusion LightSpaceCMS
http://www.lightillusion.com/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=8&topic=83
The latest release of LightSpace CMS includes some new Probe Options for the i1D3.
We have been working with X-Rite on these new settings to improve the calibration results of the i1D3 probe.
The new options are within the standard Probe Options window and include two main changes.
First, in the 'Display Type' area of the menu is a new 'Plasma' setting (more on this below)
Second, in the 'Calibration Settings' are new settings for Plasma, Oled, and RG-Phosphor display colourimetry.
The Calibration Settings provide in-built offsets for the different displays, improving measured accuracy.
All fairly obvious, and a big help.
It is the new 'Display Type' 'Plasma' setting that is more interesting...
Although we have labeled it as 'Plasma' this setting can help with LCD displays too.
The 'Plasma' mode is really designed as a 'Burst' measurement mode for displays with pulsing characteristics.
And some LCD displays suffer this.
ChromaPure 2.3.2
http://www.chromapure.com/news.asp?utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email
•The Plasma mode now incorporates a new burst read mode provided by X-Rite that improves repeatability at low light levels on plasma displays. Our tests show that single readings on plasmas have very good repeatability down to 20% stimulus. To get good repeatability below that you may need to use Measurement Smoothing (but not on auto-cal). Continuous readings are fine at any level

I'm glad you asked that. I have been wondering exactly this. I asked in one of the Spectracal threads a while ago, but do not recall seeing it answered.
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post #505 of 1622
11/13/12 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Sotti/Derek, is Current Version of CalMAN already supporting this updated Plasma mode (for iD3/C6 Meters)

Yes we are working on CalMAN 5.04 update to include the added pulse sync mode for the D3 OEM, D3 Retail and SpectraCal C6. This added mode is in addition to our Auto sync mode we have had for the C6.

So the sync choices are:
- Off (all sync modes disabled)
- On (pulse sync enabled)
- Auto (Default setting) (will enable our own sync mode if we detect the device has a unstable light source, Plasma, DLP, etc…)

In addition to the new pulse sync mode we also now allow multiple D3 based meters connected simultaneously. You should see the project this was for smile.gif
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post #506 of 1622
11/13/12 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Yes we are working on CalMAN 5.04 update to include the added pulse sync mode for the D3 OEM, D3 Retail and SpectraCal C6. This added mode is in addition to our Auto sync mode we have had for the C6.
So the sync choices are:
- Off (all sync modes disabled)
- On (pulse sync enabled)
- Auto (Default setting) (will enable our own sync mode if we detect the device has a unstable light source, Plasma, DLP, etc…)
In addition to the new pulse sync mode we also now allow multiple D3 based meters connected simultaneously. You should see the project this was for smile.gif

That is great to hear! Do you think you will have a fix soon for the Error 69 problem with the i1D3 - reported now for both 2D and 3D (behind glasses), as discussed here: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=4272 ? According to LightSpace CMS they are able to read this meter just fine, so hopefully that means there is a way for your team to do the same.
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post #507 of 1622
11/13/12 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

That is great to hear! Do you think you will have a fix soon for the Error 69 problem with the i1D3 - reported now for both 2D and 3D (behind glasses), as discussed here: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=4272 ? According to LightSpace CMS they are able to read this meter just fine, so hopefully that means there is a way for your team to do the same.

Probably not.

Hardware has limitations, and those meters were not designed to read through glasses.

It's not a simple problem, even high end meters like Jeti 1211 have issues with shutter glasses.

They apparently give our CS-2000 fits.
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post #508 of 1622
11/14/12 at 9:42pm
Who knew?
AutoCal - Spikes and Dips? - just happened to close my curtains the other night while doing calibrations, and clicked on the AutoCal - Spikes and Dips virtually disappeared!
Ran a test tonight with Curtains open, then closed. The lights off the University Building, at least a mile or more across our lake, was reflecting off my Matte Screened 55LHX, and reflecting on the ceiling of my room. Thusly affecting my calilbrations - will close curtains for future sessions.
Picture attached: DSC00090.JPG 3946k .JPG file
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post #509 of 1622
11/14/12 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Who knew?
AutoCal - Spikes and Dips? - just happened to close my curtains the other night while doing calibrations, and clicked on the AutoCal - Spikes and Dips virtually disappeared!
Ran a test tonight with Curtains open, then closed. The lights off the University Building, at least a mile or more across our lake, was reflecting off my Matte Screened 55LHX, and reflecting on the ceiling of my room. Thusly affecting my calilbrations - will close curtains for future sessions.
Picture attached: DSC00090.JPG 3946k .JPG file

I thought everybody knew, especially with today's ultra-high-contrast projectors. I don't even have my laptop inside the theater when calibrating. All is done from the equipment room with the theater utterly dark except for the projector. It's a must!
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post #510 of 1622
11/15/12 at 2:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Who knew?
AutoCal - Spikes and Dips? - just happened to close my curtains the other night while doing calibrations, and clicked on the AutoCal - Spikes and Dips virtually disappeared!
Ran a test tonight with Curtains open, then closed. The lights off the University Building, at least a mile or more across our lake, was reflecting off my Matte Screened 55LHX, and reflecting on the ceiling of my room. Thusly affecting my calilbrations - will close curtains for future sessions.
Picture attached: DSC00090.JPG 3946k .JPG file

What kind of meter were you using?
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