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CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 20

post #571 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

^^^^
Why not simply use your BD player to play back your AVS disc for the window patterns. Why not use 2.2.2 and 16/235.
Also why have your meter so far away from your display, and try different window sizes.
Also beware that your Panasonic can shift from 3D to 2D mode, there by changing anything you have pre set in whatever 3D mode you are using back to a 2D mode settings.
Experiment with different color temp modes
imo you should start over and keep how you setup things as simple and direct as possible, stay with the basics until you get a good understanding on how this all works.
Also beware of IR from your window patterns, because IR from window patterns can and will put your new calibration settings off.
Service menu, bad idea.
With the UT50 the only place to adjust white balance is in the service menu. In the Calman walkthrough (for v.4) is says 18 inches is typical so the active shutter glasses can still talk to the TV. Every time I shut the TV off to go back to 3D and check setting changes I have have turn the glasses off and on again to re-sync with the TV. With the UT50 since the only place to adjust white balance is the service menu I only have 3 color temps (options) available for white balance. I used warm for cinema mode and normal for custom mode, that's why I'm using cool for 3D white balance. In my graph above green is pretty heavy on the low end, if I cut green would it be problematic at the high end because green is already at max for its high end? When I check the brightness pattern it's basically green bars flashing on the screen instead of black/gray so I know it needs to be cut. I also learned I get the best results by using "Manual 3D" mode and having left and right images separate, that helped a lot in getting good readings.

I see.
First, p5brownen advise, is on the money
imo using color temp cool; is probably your biggest problem but I guess you have no choice in the matter.
The bars I guess you are talking about are from AVSHD disc, they are probably green/gray at the high end and green at the lower end. That being the case I wouldn't worry to much about that because of the high light level setting you are probably using, it sounds like you are very limited to what changes you can make. You are using the glasses when viewing the test pattern.
You may want to try a Gamma target of 2.4
I really don't know much about a UT50 or using the service mode, and in my case because I use two meters, one to profile from, one to profile to, I can place my C6 meter very close to the screen because I don't need to use glasses when doing a 3D calibration. So this gives me a lot more flexibility on were I place the meter and also window size.

I ran a LUT cube calibration using a meter profile with the glasses last night running a 21 point GS, anyway I ended up with a dE2000 GS avg. of 1.0 and a CMS of dE2000 of 2.0. I also ended up with a Gamma of about 2.46 (target was set at 2.4). None of my 21 point GS was above 3, however in the gamut orange and sky blue was above 3 but under 5. Gamma was not flat lined but there was no peaks or valleys.

ss
post #572 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I see.
First, p5brownen advise, is on the money
imo using color temp cool; is probably your biggest problem but I guess you have no choice in the matter.
The bars I guess you are talking about are from AVSHD disc, they are probably green/gray at the high end and green at the lower end. That being the case I wouldn't worry to much about that because of the high light level setting you are probably using, it sounds like you are very limited to what changes you can make. You are using the glasses when viewing the test pattern.
You may want to try a Gamma target of 2.4
I really don't know much about a UT50 or using the service mode, and in my case because I use two meters, one to profile from, one to profile to, I can place my C6 meter very close to the screen because I don't need to use glasses when doing a 3D calibration. So this gives me a lot more flexibility on were I place the meter and also window size.
I ran a LUT cube calibration using a meter profile with the glasses last night running a 21 point GS, anyway I ended up with a dE2000 GS avg. of 1.0 and a CMS of dE2000 of 2.0. I also ended up with a Gamma of about 2.46 (target was set at 2.4). None of my 21 point GS was above 3, however in the gamut orange and sky blue was above 3 but under 5. Gamma was not flat lined but there was no peaks or valleys.
ss

You sound like you have an amazing TV! On the UT50 the only thing to calibrate (besides basic setting options) is high and low RGB; there's no gamma adjustment, and no CMS. That's the reason why I decided to make my HTPC my main playback device, excluding streaming since I can't stand the Silverlight tearing on Netflix. Using CalPC Client I may not be able to calibrate a CMS for video playback (I use TMT5 for discs to have BD menus), but I can't had an excellent 10 point grayscale calibration with whatever gamma target I want.
post #573 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

You sound like you have an amazing TV! On the UT50 the only thing to calibrate (besides basic setting options) is high and low RGB; there's no gamma adjustment, and no CMS. That's the reason why I decided to make my HTPC my main playback device, excluding streaming since I can't stand the Silverlight tearing on Netflix. Using CalPC Client I may not be able to calibrate a CMS for video playback (I use TMT5 for discs to have BD menus), but I can't had an excellent 10 point grayscale calibration with whatever gamma target I want.

I have a VT50, but that's not what enables me to do a 21 point GS or a 3D LUT 125 total point CMS. I use a Lumagen Mini 3D and that's what allows me to do this type of calibration.
However I use the controls of the VT50 to set my white point and the lower end of the IRE's, along with some other settings in my VT50 and ISF modes. I do like using my custom mode for 3D calibration, I can get the GS dE2000 avg well below 1.0 and the CMS dE at about 1.0 and hit my Gamma target.

Anyway I sounds like you have spent a lot of time getting your display to its peak, keep it up.

ss
post #574 of 2247
Thanks for you encouragement SillySally. You were right, just a little more tweaking and I think I have the best I'll ever get on my display.

Before
3DWhiteBalance.jpg


After
3DWhiteBalance_Final.jpg

Much better, but whatever it is about 3D at 100 IRE, whether it's the 3D glasses filtering red and green or just the TVs output (perhaps PC related) blue spikes even when I drop contrast down to like 70. All I did was drop low end green and high end blue. biggrin.gif
post #575 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Thanks for you encouragement SillySally. You were right, just a little more tweaking and I think I have the best I'll ever get on my display.

Much better, but whatever it is about 3D at 100 IRE, whether it's the 3D glasses filtering red and green or just the TVs output (perhaps PC related) blue spikes even when I drop contrast down to like 70. All I did was drop low end green and high end blue. biggrin.gif

Its probably how you are setting your 100% ire, but it sounds like you don't have the controls to really zero in on any given ire so it becomes more of a matter of give and take. Just remember to see what happens to the rest of your grayscale when you make any changes to your settings, that way you can zero in on the least amount of changes you should do when you start a new calibration from scratch.
Keep in mind that a 3D calibration is always very problematic, plus you are working with very limited controls. So yes simply doing what you did is the right thing to do, and no you don't really want to drop your contrast down to 70 for a 3D calibration.
You are doing something that a lot of pro's would not even attempt to do, so the bottom line is that you are happy with what you are seeing and that's all that really counts. smile.gif

ss
post #576 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Thanks for you encouragement SillySally. You were right, just a little more tweaking and I think I have the best I'll ever get on my display.
Before
3DWhiteBalance.jpg
After
3DWhiteBalance_Final.jpg
Much better, but whatever it is about 3D at 100 IRE, whether it's the 3D glasses filtering red and green or just the TVs output (perhaps PC related) blue spikes even when I drop contrast down to like 70. All I did was drop low end green and high end blue. biggrin.gif

Nice job smile.gif
post #577 of 2247
For those doing Autocal or AutoCal calibrations, I just found out, no matter what your manually calibrated values come to for 100IRE, before starting the Auto part, Zero out 100IRE. (0.0.0). Works a lot better!
post #578 of 2247
here's a bug that hasn't been fixed since I bought the software 8 weeks ago, CM 5.0.3.971

when you are connected to a Lumagen Mini via DDC, and you open a DDC window for the selected Mini CMS, only the CMS values of the CMS that was selected at DDC connect will be displayed in the DDC window...

if you select another CMS in the DDC panel, values will not update in the DDC window to the newly selected CMS... of you close the DDC window and open a new window, values do not update... if you disconnect the DDC and connect again the Lumagen via DDC, values do not update for a different CMS... obviously having incorrect values in there can mess up another CMS you're trying to modify, unless you're realizing the values are different and stop...

current workaround: you have to select another CMS in the DDC, then restart Calman to get it to read these value... and then you can only work with that CMS - frustrating and waste of time.

Please fix, it's been mentioned before.

Thanks.

- M
post #579 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

here's a bug that hasn't been fixed since I bought the software 8 weeks ago, CM 5.0.3.971
when you are connected to a Lumagen Mini via DDC, and you open a DDC window for the selected Mini CMS, only the CMS values of the CMS that was selected at DDC connect will be displayed in the DDC window...
if you select another CMS in the DDC panel, values will not update in the DDC window to the newly selected CMS... of you close the DDC window and open a new window, values do not update... if you disconnect the DDC and connect again the Lumagen via DDC, values do not update for a different CMS... obviously having incorrect values in there can mess up another CMS you're trying to modify, unless you're realizing the values are different and stop...
current workaround: you have to select another CMS in the DDC, then restart Calman to get it to read these value... and then you can only work with that CMS - frustrating and waste of time.
Please fix, it's been mentioned before.
Thanks.
- M

We are aware of that bug.

We fixed it in the first Release Canidate of 5.0.4, that was released back on Nov, 15th. Currently we have an RC3 up on our forums here: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=4456
post #580 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We are aware of that bug.
We fixed it in the first Release Canidate of 5.0.4, that was released back on Nov, 15th. Currently we have an RC3 up on our forums here: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=4456

That's great but imo you can't use RC3 with the combo that I and Mike have for a full LUT auto calibration.
If you get a chance try it (use at your own risk !).wink.gif

Not only will you end up with a calibration that is imo not worth using, you may find that because of how you have CM5E RC3 running your VT50's screen will bright flash two or three times, every time it writes to the Mini. eek.gif

ss
post #581 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

That's great but imo you can't use RC3 with the combo that I and Mike have for a full LUT auto calibration.
If you get a chance try it (use at your own risk !).wink.gif
Not only will you end up with a calibration that is imo not worth using, you may find that because of how you have CM5E RC3 running your VT50's screen will bright flash two or three times, every time it writes to the Mini. eek.gif
ss

That is intentional, apparently having the pattern generator running while you write to the lumagen can occasionally cause corruption. So we shut the pattern generator down while we are writing.

We don't read during those flashes.
Also RC3 has fixed the issues that cropped up in RC2.

The RC releases aren't necessarily ready for prime time, but we are feeling very confident with RC3. If you are having any issue that cause problems with the end calibration we'd love to hear about it.
post #582 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

That is intentional, apparently having the pattern generator running while you write to the lumagen can occasionally cause corruption. So we shut the pattern generator down while we are writing.
We don't read during those flashes.
Also RC3 has fixed the issues that cropped up in RC2.
The RC releases aren't necessarily ready for prime time, but we are feeling very confident with RC3. If you are having any issue that cause problems with the end calibration we'd love to hear about it.

following up on this:

> the link you provided to the current RC build has a post by TestGoddess listing the changes made in the RC, the fix for the bug I described is not listed there...

> how did you handle the Mini before, since before the new RC there were no flashes on screen when committing / writing to the Mini ?
post #583 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

That is intentional, apparently having the pattern generator running while you write to the lumagen can occasionally cause corruption. So we shut the pattern generator down while we are writing.
We don't read during those flashes.
Also RC3 has fixed the issues that cropped up in RC2.
The RC releases aren't necessarily ready for prime time, but we are feeling very confident with RC3. If you are having any issue that cause problems with the end calibration we'd love to hear about it.

Sure here is a copy of my post on your forum, under ther heading 5.0.4 RC3 release. Also I have posted the RED problem in the older thread for RC2.
"CM5E-Mini 3D-65VT50-RC3-3D LUT cube mode.

When CM sends its settings to the Mini CM cuts off the connection between the Mini and the VT50, so the VT50 flashes two or three times. May damage display

The bad red luminmence is still there, the rest of the P and S seems to be fine. Not watchable. "

DCC seems to work."

So how do I or you fix this problem, this is not a problem with CME 5.0.3?

So your saying that these bright flashes will not damage my display ???
And the bright flashes are normal???

ss
post #584 of 2247
Last night I did some re-calibration work on my TV and laptop. I was left with a few questions. I decided that since I no longer am using my BD player on that TV that I should recalibrate since I used that player. I decided it would be best to use the TV directly and copy the AVSHD .mp4 files to a flash drive and playback directly. The results were close but it seems my player must have had a bit of a blue push because red and green were higher across all 10% increments. I've read elsewhere that TVs might distort their playback from devices but dismissed it for being related to older TVs that were first capable of USB playback and the like. I did get better results for my 2D white balances which I was happy with. But I was wondering if RGB balance is more important or equally important as CIE x, CIE y coordinates? My readings look that if I have really close to .313, .329 that my relative color balance chart is not quite 100% for all three colors.

Also, when I used Cal PC for my laptop which is a glossy CCFL back-lit LCD all my low end grays have such a blue cut that they become brown with the resulting calibration. I did set the display type to LCD - CCFL, so I'm not sure why that might not be reading right unless the "proper viewing angle" is supposed to be anything but perpendicular. I tried closing Calman and disconnecting my meter but it didn't seem to fix it. Tonight I will be sure to turn it off and on again to see if something is just funny in Windows. I don't recall having that problem last time I calibrated, but I forgot to set it to 0-255 so I wanted to correct that. The previous result was a warmer picture which was nice. smile.gif
post #585 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

That is intentional, apparently having the pattern generator running while you write to the lumagen can occasionally cause corruption. So we shut the pattern generator down while we are writing.
We don't read during those flashes.
Also RC3 has fixed the issues that cropped up in RC2.
The RC releases aren't necessarily ready for prime time, but we are feeling very confident with RC3. If you are having any issue that cause problems with the end calibration we'd love to hear about it.

Given that the Lumagen, under this RC3, frequently jumps sources, what would you recommend to avoid this switching? It really slows down the process of calibration. Is it advisable to simply disconnect all sources?
post #586 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

That is intentional, apparently having the pattern generator running while you write to the lumagen can occasionally cause corruption. So we shut the pattern generator down while we are writing.

That sounds like a rather backward way of handling it. Did your team reach out to Lumagen for a fix? Lumagen is by far the single greatest company for technical support and works extremely fast. They leave no stone unturned, no bug unfixed. If indeed there can be corruption while writing to the Radiance with the pattern generator up, I am quite sure its something they can fix and fix quickly. What do they say about it? That sounds like the right away to handle it.
Quote:
We don't read during those flashes.

How can we be sure of this? Is there a delay of x seconds? How can we be sure that the read delay is long enough? Not all systems handle the flashes and switch back as fast as other.
post #587 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post

Given that the Lumagen, under this RC3, frequently jumps sources, what would you recommend to avoid this switching? It really slows down the process of calibration. Is it advisable to simply disconnect all sources?

Can you explain this issue in more detail? What do you mean switch sources? Does the Lumagen literally switch over from one source and start displaying input from another source? Or do you mean that the CMS changes from one bank to another? I thought Joel said this is something that was fixed in recent builds? confused.gif
post #588 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

So your saying that these bright flashes will not damage my display ???
And the bright flashes are normal???

That's not normal, and not reproducible in house. We have several different radiances we test on and when the pattern generator switches off for us, it simply drops to whatever the current video input is.

You may want to contact lumagen and find out why this happens with your radiance.
Edited by sotti - 12/12/12 at 10:43am
post #589 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post

Given that the Lumagen, under this RC3, frequently jumps sources, what would you recommend to avoid this switching? It really slows down the process of calibration. Is it advisable to simply disconnect all sources?

It's not jumping sources, just shutting the pattern generator down.
It takes the same amount of time as before, you just didn't notice that it was updating because a pattern was up.
post #590 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

That sounds like a rather backward way of handling it. Did your team reach out to Lumagen for a fix?

It was Lumagen who discovered the issue and offered this method up as the solution.
post #591 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

That's not normal, and not reproducible in house. We have several different radiances we test on and when the pattern generator switches off for us, it simply drops to whatever the current video input is.
You may want to contact lumagen and find out why this happens with your radiance.

Thanks for the reply, I will ask Lumagen about it.

What about the Red Lumanance problem, this problem completely destroys the calibration.???????
Did you look at the chart I provided????

ss
post #592 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

What about the Red Lumanance problem, this problem completely destroys the calibration.???????
Did you look at the chart I provided????

My assumption there, is that CalMAN was getting a partial reading of whatever that flash is. Trying to make adjustments without getting accurate readings never turns out well.
post #593 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It's not jumping sources, just shutting the pattern generator down.
It takes the same amount of time as before, you just didn't notice that it was updating because a pattern was up.

Well, I'll disable the sources nonetheless. It's pretty distracting jumping from Radiance pattern to over the air tuner and back. It must be taking a bit of time for the Radiance and projector to get in sync with one another.
post #594 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

My assumption there, is that CalMAN was getting a partial reading of whatever that flash is. Trying to make adjustments without getting accurate readings never turns out well.

I am not talking about the flashing when CM sent the info to the Lumagen between patterns, I am talking about a problem when calibrating using the LUT 125 point autocal. See the picture I posted above.
I have ran the LUT calibration on two lap tops both with RS 223 ports, and have the same problem with the RED Lumanance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It was Lumagen who discovered the issue and offered this method up as the solution.

I talked to Lumagen and they say they have no knowledge of this problem and this is not there solution. They went on to say they don't even have a copy of your software so they could not test this problem.

They did seem to think before you made the change to shutting of the signal for the pattern, that the problem with corrupting the info sent to the Lumagen may be caused because CM was trying to speed things up to much, and suggested you slow down that process a Little.

I hope this helps you on both of the problems I am talking about, and look forward to you reply to both of these issues.

UPDATE
I should add that Lumagen suggested to use a HDMI cable at-least 6 feet long (monprice or blue jean) and there has been problems when using a USB converter at the higher rates that Calman sends to Lumagen. If at all possible use a computer with a RS-233 port to connect to the Lumagen.

ss
Edited by sillysally - 12/12/12 at 1:33pm
post #595 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I am not talking about the flashing when CM sent the info to the Lumagen between patterns, I am talking about a problem when calibrating using the LUT 125 point autocal. See the picture I posted above.
I have ran the LUT calibration on two lap tops both with RS 223 ports, and have the same problem with the RED Lumanance.

Turn on the AutoCal Logging and I'll take a look at your log file.
There are no changes to AutoCal at all between RC1 and RC3.
post #596 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Turn on the AutoCal Logging and I'll take a look at your log file.
There are no changes to AutoCal at all between RC1 and RC3.

I have reservations about doing another LUT calibration using RC1, 2 or 3. I have already have done three calibrations using RC 1,2 and three.
I do connect to my Mini via RS-233 port on my Lap top so I am not using a USB converter. .

Yes I understand that autocal for LUT cube calibration has not changed in any of the three RC's, because they all do the same thing with the Red Lumanance issue. However RC3 seems to have a little less problem with the RED than RC 1 and 2. Anyway you can look at your forum and see what I posted for RC2 or 1.

ss
post #597 of 2247
XE on LG 55LHX - had bits of XEs menu popping up on the calibration screen, and sometimes would also drop to the Input Source Video, and you'd have to wiggle the mouse around, or click somewhere on the screen to get calibration screen back. Have not tried to cover the Input Sensor on the XE yet to see if it's picking up stray pulses off my LG Remote while calibrating. Jim tells me it may have something to do with Calman sending out too may CR commands?

XE currently totally messed up after doing the 125 Point Calibration - going for help!
Edited by p5browne - 12/13/12 at 8:01am
post #598 of 2247
We can try to replicate your issue. If you can send us the RS232 command sequence that is sent to the Radiance, we can create a test program to output the sequence and see if there are any issues.

Randy Freeman
Lumagen
post #599 of 2247
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfpublic View Post

We can try to replicate your issue. If you can send us the RS232 command sequence that is sent to the Radiance, we can create a test program to output the sequence and see if there are any issues.
Randy Freeman
Lumagen

Which turning on all the logging in CalMAN will provide.
post #600 of 2247
I've re-authored some patterns from the AVSHD disc--with permission-- to make it much easier to use with Calman 5. Here's the link to the thread here on AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444813/easycal-hd-re-authored-avshd-disc-for-use-with-calman-5
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