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Receiver audio decoding question.

post #1 of 18
8/6/12 at 6:05am
Thread Starter 
I came across this a while back --> http://hd.engadget.com/2009/04/21/hd-101-how-to-use-dolby-truehd-and-dts-hd-with-your-ps3/

And came across this this morning. --> http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Offering-SONY-7-1-HDMI-Audio-Receiver-for-1-3-of-RETAIL-PRICE-W0QQAdIdZ402237003

And quote from another forum. --> "The STRDH700 will also accept a decoded TrueHD signal via LPCM over HDMI. What it won't do, that the STRDH800 will, is decode a bitstream of such a signal."

Now the Sony receiver mentioned above does not seemingly support HD audio (Dolby and DTS) but my PS3 seems to decode HD audio. This Sony receiver seems to accept audio through HDMI to play through the receiver. I guess my question is will I hear HD audio through a slightly older receiver that does not internally decode and support HD audio if my PS3 seems to decode it?? The first link article seems to suggest I don't need a receiver that internally decodes HD audio. This is something that has really confused me. Thanks.
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post #2 of 18
8/6/12 at 6:55am
Thread Starter 
This is the part in the first article I posted that confuses me.

Cabling
"First off, S/PDIF transmission -- over either optical TOSLINK or coax -- does not have the bandwidth to carry Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA signals. If you connect your Blu-ray player to your receiver with optical or coax, the audio will "fall back" to Dolby Digital, DTS or two-channel PCM (lossless, but only two channels). What you'll need is an HDMI connection. Note that with the PS3, you don't specifically need a HDMI 1.3 receiver or cable -- even HDMI 1.0 will suffice."

Receiver
Many modern receivers can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA right in the receiver. This feature is making its way down to even modestly-priced models for many manufacturers, and we're happy to see it. When using a PS3, however, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA codec support in the receiver will go unused. If you paid extra just for the extra two logos, sorry. Whatever you do, don't panic -- you can still enjoy all the quality of these lossless codecs with your PS3.
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post #3 of 18
8/6/12 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post

I came across this a while back --> http://hd.engadget.com/2009/04/21/hd-101-how-to-use-dolby-truehd-and-dts-hd-with-your-ps3/
And came across this this morning. --> http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Offering-SONY-7-1-HDMI-Audio-Receiver-for-1-3-of-RETAIL-PRICE-W0QQAdIdZ402237003
And quote from another forum. --> "The STRDH700 will also accept a decoded TrueHD signal via LPCM over HDMI. What it won't do, that the STRDH800 will, is decode a bitstream of such a signal."
Now the Sony receiver mentioned above does not seemingly support HD audio (Dolby and DTS) but my PS3 seems to decode HD audio. This Sony receiver seems to accept audio through HDMI to play through the receiver. I guess my question is will I hear HD audio through a slightly older receiver that does not internally decode and support HD audio if my PS3 seems to decode it?? The first link article seems to suggest I don't need a receiver that internally decodes HD audio. This is something that has really confused me. Thanks.

If your "slightly older" receiver has HDMI inputs, then yes, it will be able to receive the decoded audio from the PS3.
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post #4 of 18
8/6/12 at 12:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If your "slightly older" receiver has HDMI inputs, then yes, it will be able to receive the decoded audio from the PS3.

But would the receiver not be able to output surround sound if the HDMI is only "pass through"? Wouldn't I need a receiver with at least HDMI 1.3??
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post #5 of 18
8/6/12 at 1:39pm
No you don't. My Marantz SR4001 only uses HDMI 1.1 and accepts multichannel PCM audio.

You dont need ver 1.3 for that.

Your particular receiver may not accept HDMI audio but I know many receivers with 1.1 or higher can do this.
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post #6 of 18
8/6/12 at 1:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

No you don't. My Marantz SR4001 only uses HDMI 1.1 and accepts multichannel PCM audio.
You dont need ver 1.3 for that.
Your particular receiver may not accept HDMI audio but I know many receivers with 1.1 or higher can do this.

So I simply need to look for a receiver with HDMI that can accept both audio and video and output audio for surround sound??
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post #7 of 18
8/6/12 at 1:49pm
Yeah, which is pretty much any currenty HDMI receiver nowadays.

Which PS3 do you have? The older fat PS3 or the newer slimmer model?
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post #8 of 18
8/6/12 at 1:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Yeah, which is pretty much any currenty HDMI receiver nowadays.
Which PS3 do you have? The older fat PS3 or the newer slimmer model?

I have the newer slim version 120GB. Do a lot of Blu-Ray players decode HD audio??
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post #9 of 18
8/6/12 at 2:22pm
Virtually every BDP sold in the past 2 years at least will decode the audio so it can be connected directly to a TV.
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post #10 of 18
8/6/12 at 2:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Virtually every BDP sold in the past 2 years at least will decode the audio so it can be connected directly to a TV.

Well it seems like every current HT receiver has HD audio decoding onboard. But if the PS3 does the decoding that basically renders the Receiver HD audio decoder useless for the most part. But if I was looking for a used receiver with HDMI then I would just need one that accepts audio into the receiver to output to the surround speakers. Not all the older ones do that. Some from even as little as three or four years ago don't seem to do that. They are just "Pass through" receivers.
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post #11 of 18
8/6/12 at 5:25pm
Maybe but you probably wont have to look very hard to find a used receiver that meets those requirements.
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post #12 of 18
8/6/12 at 5:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Maybe but you probably wont have to look very hard to find a used receiver that meets those requirements.

Well I hope so. Sadly I have a limited budget. Close to minimum wage jobs don't give a person a lot of spending money. Thanks for your help.
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post #13 of 18
8/6/12 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post

This is the part in the first article I posted that confuses me.
Cabling
"First off, S/PDIF transmission -- over either optical TOSLINK or coax -- does not have the bandwidth to carry Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA signals. If you connect your Blu-ray player to your receiver with optical or coax, the audio will "fall back" to Dolby Digital, DTS or two-channel PCM (lossless, but only two channels). What you'll need is an HDMI connection. Note that with the PS3, you don't specifically need a HDMI 1.3 receiver or cable -- even HDMI 1.0 will suffice."
The fact that your coax connection doesn't have enough bandwidth is a myth. Take a look at your cable TV. You get hundreds of channels over that single cable and folks think you can't send a lossless (HD) audio stream that takes less bandwidth than a single HD video channel?

This was a decision made on purpose to force a shift toward HDMI. It was perfectly possible to retrofit the coax connection but decision was made (by the industry at large) to not do that.
Quote:
Receiver
Many modern receivers can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA right in the receiver. This feature is making its way down to even modestly-priced models for many manufacturers, and we're happy to see it. When using a PS3, however, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA codec support in the receiver will go unused. If you paid extra just for the extra two logos, sorry. Whatever you do, don't panic -- you can still enjoy all the quality of these lossless codecs with your PS3.
It is ironic but you actually have more functionality if you let the source do the decoding. That is how the architecture was envisioned. That is, by allowing the player to decode and then mix multiple streams over each other. When you send the movie compressed bit stream to the receiver unchanged, then the other streams will not play, breaking part of the functionality in Blu-ray spec. So if your AVR does support PCM over HDMI (as mentioned post version 1.1 they all can do that) by all means use it that way. Using the bit stream may make one feel better, but it is not a better solution smile.gif.

By the way, the often mentioned advantage of lower jitter by allowing AVR decoding is also wrong. smile.gif It is true that when you send the bit stream to the AVR it is a data stream so it is not impacted by jitter over that link (assuming it is above failure point). But once you decode that stream,, you must lock it to the HDMI clock and whatever jitter there is there (post filtering) gets induced into the DAC just like it would with PCM data.

Net, net, there is no advantage to AVR decoding of lossless audio streams. Use source decoding and be happy smile.gif.
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post #14 of 18
8/7/12 at 2:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The fact that your coax connection doesn't have enough bandwidth is a myth. Take a look at your cable TV. You get hundreds of channels over that single cable and folks think you can't send a lossless (HD) audio stream that takes less bandwidth than a single HD video channel?
This was a decision made on purpose to force a shift toward HDMI. It was perfectly possible to retrofit the coax connection but decision was made (by the industry at large) to not do that.
It is ironic but you actually have more functionality if you let the source do the decoding. That is how the architecture was envisioned. That is, by allowing the player to decode and then mix multiple streams over each other. When you send the movie compressed bit stream to the receiver unchanged, then the other streams will not play, breaking part of the functionality in Blu-ray spec. So if your AVR does support PCM over HDMI (as mentioned post version 1.1 they all can do that) by all means use it that way. Using the bit stream may make one feel better, but it is not a better solution smile.gif.
By the way, the often mentioned advantage of lower jitter by allowing AVR decoding is also wrong. smile.gif It is true that when you send the bit stream to the AVR it is a data stream so it is not impacted by jitter over that link (assuming it is above failure point). But once you decode that stream,, you must lock it to the HDMI clock and whatever jitter there is there (post filtering) gets induced into the DAC just like it would with PCM data.
Net, net, there is no advantage to AVR decoding of lossless audio streams. Use source decoding and be happy smile.gif.

So basically what you're saying is that it is better for the Blu-ray player to decode the audio then having the receiver do it?? That's fine with me. I just want to be able to go with one HDMI cable from my PS3 to my receiver and one to from there to the TV. And be able to get full HD audio from my surround sound. If I can do that with a slightly older receiver then so be it. If I have to splurge on a new one then so be it too.
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post #15 of 18
8/7/12 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post

So basically what you're saying is that it is better for the Blu-ray player to decode the audio then having the receiver do it?? That's fine with me. I just want to be able to go with one HDMI cable from my PS3 to my receiver and one to from there to the TV. And be able to get full HD audio from my surround sound. If I can do that with a slightly older receiver then so be it. If I have to splurge on a new one then so be it too.
You got it smile.gif.
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post #16 of 18
8/7/12 at 2:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

You got it smile.gif.

But I need a receiver that has a least HDMI "switching" right? It can't simply be "pass through". Cause it seems that "pass through" HDMI receivers don't handle audio through HDMI. I would need an optical digital cable to get the audio.
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post #17 of 18
8/7/12 at 5:43pm
There's two different definitions of pass through, old and new.

1. Some of the older HDMI receivers 5 years ago couldn't decode HDMI audio and only acted as a video switcher. The HDMI audio passed thru without be handled by the receiver. You needed an optical or digital coax cable for audio.

2. The more current receivers now have a feature called "standby pass thru" which means you can have the receiver off (in standby mode) but the HDMI inputs will still be active for those who want to watch TV without the receiver on. All current receivers process HDMI audio now.

Just buy something from the last 2-3 and you'll be fine.

You're making this much harder than it really is.
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post #18 of 18
8/7/12 at 5:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

There's two different definitions of pass through, old and new.
1. Some of the older HDMI receivers 5 years ago couldn't decode HDMI audio and only acted as a video switcher. The HDMI audio passed thru without be handled by the receiver. You needed an optical or digital coax cable for audio.
2. The more current receivers now have a feature called "standby pass thru" which means you can have the receiver off (in standby mode) but the HDMI inputs will still be active for those who want to watch TV without the receiver on. All current receivers process HDMI audio now.
Just buy something from the last 2-3 and you'll be fine.
You're making this much harder than it really is.

Yeah I probably am. I tend to do that sometimes. This is just my first venture into a true home theatre system and I want to make sure of what I'm doing. Nothing wrong with asking questions. smile.gif Thanks for all your help.
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