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OUTLAW 975 - Page 3

post #61 of 443
The Outlaw 975 is worth more than $150…! Come on… who are we kidding here.
But I’m not sure it is worth $550 either. $400 is probably where we’ll eventually see it priced at. I think that if Outlaw can break even with the 975, they should count their lucky stars.
If they can break even, they should chalk it up as gained experience towards their next, more feature laden model.
Personally, I don't think a video processor is needed in a pre-pro, but room correction is a must. Even if the room correction is basic.
If you really need video processing, pick up something like this… $499.
http://www.dvdo.com/EDGE.aspx
For sound, treat your room at its first reflection points.
Then buy one of these…
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12680845

Who are we fooling here. I’d take a 975 mated with an amp pushing real world all channels driven wattage with the DVDO Edge linked above over a similar priced receiver any day of the week.
But then that is just MY PERSONAL opinion.
biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
post #62 of 443
I know my posts are not on the positive side of the coin, but I really do hope this is a successful product.
post #63 of 443
how can it be worth more than $150?

look at this unit: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Pioneer+Receivers/VSX-522-K
street price is $200 (in Canada)

Same exact specs as the Outlaw with added:

5 ch amp (yes they're puny, but still 5-ch amp included
MCACC with USER OVERRIDE 5-ch graphic EQ capability
Automatic Phase Correction for subwoofer (which is rather accurate and very useful)
iPod Direct
USB input
DSP modes (useless, but it adds to the price anyway)
Headphone Surround Mode (which is actually almost as effective as Dolby Headphone)
Advance Sound Retriever ("upscaling" for lossy codecs, including regular Dolby Digital and DTS-core)


don't tell me the above "enhancements" on the Pioneer entry level worth less than $50 when THE ENTIRE UNIT is only $200.

I want the Outlaw, but I just fail to see any value to it.

And if you argue that the Pioneer don't have pre-out, all you need is to buy three of these http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_40148_Xscorpion-LC07-SC-LC07.html at $5 each and you can use the amp as a pre-pro for a total of $215 AND have the same quality but with more features than the Outlaw 975.

$215 vs $549 for very similar quality.... hmmm, which one should people buy? eek.gif

oh, and you STILL can buy DVDO EDGE GREEN for the Pioneer.

PS: you don't have to buy Pioneer, you can substitute that with Denon, Onkyo, or Yamaha, and you'll still get the same mathematical objective comparison against the Outlaw.
post #64 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

Who are we fooling here. I’d take a 975 mated with an amp pushing real world all channels driven wattage with the DVDO Edge linked above over a similar priced receiver any day of the week.
But then that is just MY PERSONAL opinion.
biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Or you can do the same (use DVDO Edge and "amp pushing real world all channels drive wattage") with my solution above and save about $270 in the process. tongue.gif
post #65 of 443
Well, then knock yourself out and buy the Pioneer! But until you can compare the two units in the same room, inspect the caps/power supplies etc, you're just guessing.

And those speaker to RCA inputs are not going to have the same SQ as dedicated preouts, and neither will that AVR. I've tried that method in my car system. Also, I've got a 200 AVR and compared it to my 1000 AVR. Not the same quality sound. That is the missing link to your analysis, you have no idea how the 975 will sound, and neither do I. But knowing that Outlaw doesn't release junk, I tend to think I'll outdo a 200 dollar Pioneer.

You want to compare it to something, with black friday sales, and you pick a 200 bargain basesment Pioneer? There are much better options than that.
post #66 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Quote:
And those speaker to RCA inputs are not going to have the same SQ as dedicated preouts, and neither will that AVR.

Would you mind explaining why the preouts of a prepro you have never heard will sound better than "those speaker to RCA inputs" of an AVR you have never heard. By the way what are "those speaker to RCA inputs"?

Bill
post #67 of 443
Indeed! Why don't you explain how they are going to sound exactly the same. smile.gif
post #68 of 443
No, he's asking YOU: "why the preouts of a prepro you have never heard will sound better than "those speaker to RCA inputs" of an AVR you have never heard" rolleyes.gif
post #69 of 443
you really want to compare apples to apples?

how about Pioneer Elite VSX-60 with the EXACT same street price of $549?

It has everything the Outlaw have PLUS

7 HDMI inputs
7.2 channels
Advanced MCACC (can be set to full auto, auto or manual) with Standing Wave Control and 9-band EQ
Selectable X-Curve
Marvell Qdeo Kyoto2 upscaling chip
Automatic Phase Correction for subwoofer (which is rather accurate and very useful)
iPod Direct
USB input
DSP modes (useless, but it adds to the price anyway)
Headphone Surround Mode (which is actually almost as effective as Dolby Headphone)
Advance Sound Retriever ("upscaling" for lossy codecs, including regular Dolby Digital and DTS-core)

and as a bonus feature: 7x true 90wpc amps (bi-ampable too) rated at 7 channels running simultaneously running full frequency (20Hz to 20 kHz)... which you can also not use and use an outboard amp instead. This way you can save more than $500 from not buying the DVD Edge Green tongue.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gif
post #70 of 443
Just to recap. I want to own a pre-pro, but not a pre-pro with 2-years-old features and priced at today's pricing. It doesn't make sense. At $150 it's a definite buy, at $250 is a solid maybe, at $549 it's an absolute no-go. IMHO, of course. If someone prefers an old technology and want to buy a pre-pro just for the sake of buying a pre-pro, well it IS the cheapest pre-pro on the market. At the same time you can buy a USED pre-pro for $549 with more inputs, better upscaler and DAC too.

If anything, the retro look of the Outlaw is sweet though, I like it better than Emotiva's cosmetics. smile.gif
post #71 of 443
Then like I said, buy the Pioneer and be done with it. Personally I'd go for the Onkyo 818 as it can be had for almost 50% off of MSP with Black Friday pricing. These entry level processors are not for me either but their value may not lie in their features or lack thereof. Or not.
post #72 of 443
don't get me wrong, I'm not pushing Pioneer. It may be an Onkyo, Denon or whatever brand. I just find the $549 for the 975 feature set (or lack thereof) to be mind boggling in a negative way.
post #73 of 443
Since some are questioning the 200's emo q system ; it is fair to say that the new emo q 2nd gen system hasnt been experienced yet so its a bit hard to be negative yet ; wait a while smile.gif Wont quote the whole spec sheet to give an idea of the extra value compared to the outlaw ; not to mention the dual cirrus logic processor chipset ;costs more than just one cool.gif
Quote:
Advanced Emo-Q Gen2™ automatic multi-channel room correction and loudspeaker setup gets you started fast (calibrated measurement microphone included).
Flexible quadruple bass management, with 12dB or 24 dB per octave crossover filters, configurable in precise 5 Hz steps below 80 Hz (and 10 Hz steps above 80 Hz), helps you get the best bass performance from virtually any room and subwoofer.
Eleven user-programmable fully parametric equalizers per channel provide exceptional manual control over room acoustics (with storage for three separate configurations).

Nice fine peq adjustment where you need it in the bass on top of an emo q system that needed an overhaul and got one tongue.gif Exciting times with a new long neglected market [by the mainstream ce's] seeing some life imho . Too many brands with just bells and whistles but each to their own . I want bells and whistles like dts neox; auro3d;dolby atmos or is that a separate category biggrin.gif
post #74 of 443
At this point any working room correction from Emo is vaporware. The only way to judge what Emo MIGHT have is by what they've done before.
post #75 of 443
Reluctantly, I'll chime in. Don't confuse performance with features especially features that may or may not be a benefit like room EQ. They don't work well in all rooms and you'll find many threads where people leave them off. There is a lot that goes into designing a component and its quality of componenst. Since we don't hear digital at some point in all these processors the signal needs to be converted to analog. We can talk about features all day long but quality analog circuitry still makes a sonic difference. And the cost of good analog components have gone up not down like ICs. Good opamps, capacitors, power supplies all cost money.

I don't know specifically about the 975 and its components but I wouldn't rule it out on being a decent processor without evaluating it first.
post #76 of 443
Have you tried Audyssey XT32 or is this hearsay? I find XT32 quite amazing and a major upgrade from the UMC-1 which for all intents and purposes had no working room eq. But then again I don't have a perfect room. The Outlaw will not be very different from the UMC-1 which I'd never purchase again.
post #77 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

No, he's asking YOU: "why the preouts of a prepro you have never heard will sound better than "those speaker to RCA inputs" of an AVR you have never heard" rolleyes.gif

Actually, you are the one trying to say that the Outlaw is only worth $150 and won’t sound any better than a $200 Pioneer receiver.
So the burden of proof lies on your shoulders.
post #78 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

At this point any working room correction from Emo is vaporware. The only way to judge what Emo MIGHT have is by what they've done before.

I agree with you Theresa. Track record means a lot with me as well.
If you read these forums, you'd think every UMC-1 was a piece of junk and you'd think that every UMC-1's (room correction) EmoQ was worthless.
I actually own a UMC-1.
Imagine that eh... (Someone commenting on the UMC-1 who actually owns one. wink.gif ) ...anyway, mine is working flawlessly. I know two other people who are in my general area who also own the UMC-1 and they have no complaints either. And to think I almost never bought one because of what fine informative people like you were saying about the UMC-1 on sites like this. Had I not had two first hand demonstrations and endorsements with it and had I not trusted my gut feeling that the UMC-1 was a solid performer, I’d have missed out.
So yes... let’s go by the latest track record with the UMC-1. Having said that, I'd say that a further improved/enhanced version of EmoQ… a room correction system that allows me to tweak the settings after it is run would be great.
post #79 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

Actually, you are the one trying to say that the Outlaw is only worth $150 and won’t sound any better than a $200 Pioneer receiver.
So the burden of proof lies on your shoulders.

Funny that the sound quality statement came from you but I'm the one with burden of proof. My statement is NOT in the SQ department but in Value (price vs feature) department.

Regardless, from spec alone, a $549 (everyday price) receiver, the Outlaw is extremely overvalued since the features are no better than a $199 everyday price receiver.
post #80 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Since some are questioning the 200's emo q system ; it is fair to say that the new emo q 2nd gen system hasnt been experienced yet so its a bit hard to be negative yet ; wait a while smile.gif Wont quote the whole spec sheet to give an idea of the extra value compared to the outlaw ; not to mention the dual cirrus logic processor chipset ;costs more than just one cool.gif
Nice fine peq adjustment where you need it in the bass on top of an emo q system that needed an overhaul and got one tongue.gif Exciting times with a new long neglected market [by the mainstream ce's] seeing some life imho . Too many brands with just bells and whistles but each to their own . I want bells and whistles like dts neox; auro3d;dolby atmos or is that a separate category biggrin.gif

CWT, I truly believe some people are simply more interested in whether they can hook their iPod up to their processor than they are with the sonic capabilities of the unit.

To those that want all the bells and whistles, look to the Integra’s. They have a lot of the bells and whistles you crave, but they also come with a price.
Bottom line, nothing is for free.
Me personally, I’d rather not have a video processor on a pre-pro. If I want a video processor, I’d more than likely get the earlier mentioned DVDO.
post #81 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Funny that the sound quality statement came from you but I'm the one with burden of proof. My statement is NOT in the SQ department but in Value (price vs feature) department.
Regardless, from spec alone, a $549 (everyday price) receiver, the Outlaw is extremely overvalued since the features are no better than a $199 everyday price receiver.

Hmmmm....
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The only thing Outlaw should do is dropping the price to no more than $149. If a receiver with the same/better capability can sell for $199 at the stores, there is no excuse for Outlaw to not be able to sell direct this severely dated pre-pro for $149 or less.

You are the one that says it's worth $150... therefore the burden of proof lies with you.
I personally don't believe you have prooved you case. wink.gif
post #82 of 443
Your quote is the proof within itself. I'm talking about its worth (value) and the Outlaw does not show its value. Unless you don't know what "value" means.

As I re-iterated many times before, I'm just comparing spec vs spec. I NEVER argue about sound quality.
post #83 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Your quote is the proof within itself. I'm talking about its worth (value) and the Outlaw does not show its value. Unless you don't know what "value" means.
As I re-iterated many times before, I'm just comparing spec vs spec. I NEVER argue about sound quality.

Please... quit dodging the point.

If your main concern is features in a surrond processor over sound, then I need not say more.
post #84 of 443
How about YOU quit putting words in my mouth. At $500 price range, it's not about sound quality, it's about value. If you want sound quality you won't be cheap in buying a $500 pre-pro and buy a pre-pro starting at around $2000 MSRP and up. rolleyes.gif
post #85 of 443
Interesting thread - must come out of retirement:

As an owner of a Pioneer receiver myself I will say that receivers do offer a great deal of features. One thing it does not have that the Outlaw does have is quadruple bass management. A feature often overlooked but essential for people who want to get the most performance out of their home theater especially when also used in multi channel surround music applications. Owners of tower speakers are forced to settle for the weakest link in the chain either the center or surround channels and if you have presence or PLIIz height speakers then what ?

99% of the features on my receiver I must admit to have never used. As for room correction I prefer to correct the room with sound treatments and not change the frequency response of my speakers to sound flat thus loosing their identity. Bass correction can still be done with the right sub so no worries there.
post #86 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Indeed! Why don't you explain how they are going to sound exactly the same. smile.gif

I'm not sure if this post was in response to my earlier post (#66). I never said anything would sound the same, so I'm not sure where you got that from. You are the one that posted (#65) "And those speaker to RCA inputs are not going to have the same SQ as dedicated preouts, and neither will that AVR". How would you know this when the 975 hasn't even been released? I also asked what you meant when you posted "those speaker to RCA inputs". So if you wouldn't mind could you explain what that means smile.gif.

Bill
post #87 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I'm not sure if this post was in response to my earlier post (#66). I never said anything would sound the same, so I'm not sure where you got that from. You are the one that posted (#65) "And those speaker to RCA inputs are not going to have the same SQ as dedicated preouts, and neither will that AVR". How would you know this when the 975 hasn't even been released? I also asked what you meant when you posted "those speaker to RCA inputs". So if you wouldn't mind could you explain what that means smile.gif.
Bill

1) You must have missed it, but in post #63, David included a link to a product which I referred to with my "speaker to RCA input" reference. If you'll click that link, it will explain exactly what it is and what it does. It takes the speaker level output from an amplifier/AVR and reduces it to a preamp level signal that can then be plugged into another amp. So the signal gets amplified then reduced then amplified before it gets to the speakers. In addition, this is in the 12 volt DC car electronics environment. Further, it's a pretty cheap version, and when weighing what all that would do to a signal compared to simply using dedicated preouts of an AVR, I hold the position that the two would not sound the same. I used one of these in my car at one time, and my recollection is that they introduced hiss into the sound.

2) You expressed skepticism that I could know whether this product would sound exactly the same as dedicated preouts on an AVR. I read that to mean you doubt there is a difference between the two, hence my invitation to explain how they will sound the same.

Perhaps I read too much into your post, but I've been involved in several such discussions where posters are sure that everything sounds exactly the same, whether it be AVRs, amps, cd players and even speakers!. I have grown tired of such discussions, and therefore am disinclined to enter into another one with you. Believe it or doubt it as you please. No offense intended, but I don't feel the need to convince you of anything. smile.gif
Edited by runnin' - 11/24/12 at 1:28pm
post #88 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Quote:
1) You must have missed it, but in post #63, David included a link to a product which I referred to with my "speaker to RCA input" reference. If you'll click that link, it will explain exactly what it is and what it does.

I tried that link and it did not open. No offense but you used the term "speaker to RCA input" so why not just explain what it means.
Quote:
2) You expressed skepticism that I could know whether this product would sound exactly the same as dedicated preouts on an AVR. I read that to mean you doubt there is a difference between the two, hence my invitation to explain how they will sound the same.

Maybe you should reread my post (#66). I never said anything about any products sounding the same. I asked how you could know the preouts of the 975 would sound better than the "speaker to RCA inputs" of an AVR when the 975 has not yet been released. So how would you know this?
Quote:
Perhaps I read too much into your post, but I've been involved in several such discussions where posters are sure that everything sounds exactly the same, whether it be AVRs, amps, cd players and even speakers!. I have grown tired of such discussions, and therefore am disinclined to enter into another one with you. Believe it or doubt it as you please. No offense intended, but I don't feel the need to convince you of anything. smile.gif

Yes you did read too much into my post wink.gif. I don't need to be convinced of anything.

Bill
post #89 of 443
It seems like the posters who are defending the Outlaw tend to read too much into one's posts. biggrin.gif
post #90 of 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Yes you did read too much into my post wink.gif. I don't need to be convinced of anything.
Bill

Hi Bill, I had added detail to my response, not sure if you missed my edit. I explained about the speaker level to RCA inputs.
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