Major upgrade from HTIB - looking for advice

With a room that size, you would minimally need a strong 12" ported sub to get very good performance such as the HSU VTF-3 MK4, SVS PB12-NSD, and Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX. These Internet direct manufacturer subs are as good or better than subs from more traditional speaker companies that are twice the price MSRP. If you look at the end of these two reviews, you'll see that Audioholics rated the PB12 and the EX as good in rooms up to 5,000 cubic feet:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/lfm-1-ex-review
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/sv-sound-pb-12nsd-preview

The VTF-3.4 will perform similarly well. Any of those subs will cost approximately $700 shipped.

I would suggest that you budget $800-1000 for the receiver and $3000 for the speakers.

One of the best speakers you can buy for under $2000 is the PSB Image T6 speaker. It should work nicely in your situation.

I suggest that you buy a pair of the Image T6 speakers ($1300), an Image C5 center speaker ($399), and a pair of Image B4 speakers ($329) for the rear / satellite speakers. IMO you can't get anything to equal them in that price range.

That leaves you enough money to get an NHT B12D subwoofer or one of the Rythmic 12" subwoofers. to complete the system $700 to $900). I have the NHT and strongly recommend it.

For a receiver, I would suggest that you look at the Denon and Onkyo receivers in the $700-1000 price range and carefully examine their features to make sure you get what you want. Don't pay any attention to power ratings (which are all misleading anyway); any receiver in that price range can easily run the PSB speakers which have high sensitivity and don't need all that much power.
Edited by commsysman - 8/9/12 at 7:27am

Another suggestion, buy the receiver, L/C/R speakers and a sub. Later add the surrounds. With a decent set of front speakers, one really can get excellent sound to tide one over until being able to add the surrounds.

As an example, using a $4,500.00 budget.

Marantz, SR5007 $750.00 delivered from Vann's. 100w, all channels driven.
Klipsch b-stock RF-7 II and RC-64 II, $2,491.00 delivered from Acoustic Sound Design.
Hsu, VTF-3 MK4 Subwoofer, $900.00, delivered from Hsu Research.

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Total $4,141.00

Later, as you choose, surrounds, a second sub and lastly, a separate amplifier can be added to complete your need for quality, room filling sound.

fwiw, 5 chase home theater sho-10's and a vs18.1 sub $3240

denon avr3312 $599 accessories4less
if this don't fill yor room with great sound i don't know what will:)
Edited by smasher50 - 8/8/12 at 6:05pm

This is what I would do.

I agree that would be a nice setup. But looks like CHT will be out of SHOs for a little while until they get new cabinets in and get them assembled.

A sealed 12" sub like the NHT B12D or the Rythmik F12 would be a poor choice for a room that size. It would have trouble keeping up at louder volumes.

Not true. The NHT is more than adequate.

I am using the NHT B12D Sub in a room that is larger; 24' x15', and it has more power than required, even for playing extremely loud.

It also has some of the cleanest low bass I have ever heard. I recommend it (and the PSB speakers).

Acoustic suspension designs generally have more linear response and less distortion than ported designs. The NHT also has a 500-watt amplifier, and I only have it turned up to about 70% gain.


Edited by commsysman - 8/9/12 at 7:30am

The fact that you would provide the area of your room and not the volume shows your ignorance about estimating subwoofer performance for a given space, since subwoofer performance is tied to the amount of air in a room. Furthermore, the "70% gain" setting for your sub is fairly meaningless because it tells us nothing about the sensitivity of the gain on that amp in relation to its output,and yet I would not brag about 70% gain since that sounds pretty high for most subs in my experience.

The NHT B-12d is no doubt a good sub, but it's specifications match pretty closely with the Emotiva X-Ref 12, which was rated by Audiholics as good for small rooms. The amplifier power of the B-12d is about the same and the enclosure size is similar to the X-Ref 12--it's not going to produce significantly more SPL than the X-Ref 12.

Sealed subs DO NOT generally have a more linear response. Ported subs tend to be more linear to their tuning point, where as sealed subs tend to roll off more towards the low end, which is why sealed subs generally need room gain or boundary gain to boost the low end.

That PSB setup is my goal down the road. Right now I'm using the budget Pioneer line and it is great for the price and my small living room. But when I have a dedicated HT I will want more, and PSB has always been where I lean in considering future options.

I would probably go dual ~$600 subs with that system.

The Outlaw and the HSU will a little more max SPL (volume); the SVS has lower distortion near it's max output because it has DSP that limits it from reaching quite as high.

Given that your room is also open on one side, the most SPL you can get will be important for louder volumes. If you can afford it, you might even want to bump up to the HSU VTF-15H or the Epik Empire. They have more max SPL than the other three subs. Or you could start with one of the first three subs I mentioned and add another later. If you have room for dual subs, then they can give you more even bass response throughout the room. So more whole room filling bass, vs with one sub you might find that the bass is less full in some parts of the room than others.

However, if your condo shares walls or floors with your neighbors, the more sub you have, the more they will hate you when you crank it up

The fact that you want to talk about room volume as a primary factor shows an ignorance of low-frequency acoustics.

With a subwoofer on the floor, the primary mode of transmission is floor-based traveling waves. These certainly dissipate in the upper part of the room to some extent, but unless ones listening position is going to be 8 feet above the floor, this is a non-issue. The primary waves travel along the floor and the intensity of the primary waves at the listening position is not influenced very much by the ceiling height. The length and width of the room are the primary factors determining what subwoofer you need, not the ceiling height. It is a much smaller factor in determining performance.

In an audio store owned by a friend of mine, we experimented with this in two listening rooms; one with 16-foot ceilings and one of similar size with 10-foot ceilings. We found that there was almost NO difference in performance with several subwoofers we tried out in the two rooms. This testing conclusively PROVED that there was no significant difference.

A representative of Velodyne confirmed to him that ceiling height was not a major issue as far as they were concerned, and that we should use only the length and width of a buyer's room as the main determinants when recommending a particular subwoofer. He also said that in doing a detailed analysis of a room's LF characteristics, the TYPE of ceiling material and its sonic characteristics is more significant than ceiling height (although neither is a primary issue).


Edited by commsysman - 8/9/12 at 9:12am

Yes. Room length can influence sub performance, but room pressurization is a factor in sub performance for HT usage, as has been stated repeatedly by many AVS members in the subwoofer forum with far more experience with subs than I (and I am certain you and your audio friends). And I can confirm it with my experience, having recently upgraded from a 12" ported sub to dual 18" sealed subs in my HT setup that is in a large space. The difference is dramatic now that the subs are better able to pressurize the room, enough that my 12 year old son has repeatedly commented on it emphatically. LOL

And of course you can get different subs to perform the same in rooms with different ceiling heights *if* the subs have enough max SPL or if you are sitting very near them such that the pressurization can still be felt.

Meanwhile, I see you conveniently failed to address my argument that the NTH B-12d is a max SPL wimp in comparison to the 12" ported subs I previously listed. I'll take that as a confirmation that you have read the review of the X-Ref 12, can extrapolate the performance to the B-12d, and understand that your sub is not the best choice for large rooms. If you would like more comparison data, here is a table that lists CEA-2010 test results for the X-Ref 12 and some of the other subs I have previously mentioned (note that the tests have been rigorously conducted by the same person). The SPL output difference is significant.

With all due respect, even you'd have to admit, considering he was referring to his audio store owner friend and a Velodyne rep, the above qualifies as an overstatement.

And FWIW, I currently have a pair of Klipsch SW12 II's with an eye on upgrading (as money is available) to a pair of current 12" or 15" subs. Haven't decided between Epik, Rythmik or Hsu with the Rythmik SE holding the lead.

I'm not shooting for THX levels. My expectations are, clean, tight, even bass management, with none of the bloated feeling one gets due to mains and subs fighting with each other in the lower frequencies.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/9/12 at 10:18am

Not at all. Being an audio store owner does not immediately qualify one as a subwoofer expert. As for product reps, I'm sure we've all met our fair share that know very little about the design and science of their product other than what the product brochures and a few training sessions have taught them. Then consider the source of where this information came from. LOL