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Apple TV & Nuvo Concerto

post #1 of 13
8/9/12 at 12:05pm
Thread Starter 
I've purchased a the Nuvo Concerto system for my new home and would like to include an Apple TV as an audio-only source for one of my six sources. The reason I'm choosing an Apple TV(ATV) over an Airport Express(AE), is because the AE does not send meta-data to or offer audio-control (previous and next song buttons) from the Concerto keypads....and ultimately, I do not want to purchase one of the expensive music ports from Nuvo.

I'm throwing the following theory out there, for others to nitpick and provide feedback, and see if my theory is possible:

1. I'm Mounting an iPad on the wall. It will ONLY have an in-wall charger connected to it and will deliver audio via Airplay to the ATV.

2. The ATV is located next to the Concerto system. Attached, is an Optical-to-RCA convertor outputting audio to the Concerto via the optical output on the back of the ATV, inputting the audio signal into the left and right RCA jacks for Zone 1. Now we have audio.

3. Next, an HDMI-to-Cat5 cable(or converter box) outputs from the HDMI jack on the back of the ATV to the NV-I8GEZP that comes packaged with and is connected to the Concerto via a packaged cable. This should, in theory, provide data information to the system that can be route to all the keypads

Also, other Apple devices (Computers running Itunes, iPhones, iPods, etc...) can access the ATV attached to the system....quite like the Apple Express, but the audio can now be controlled by the Concerto Keypads.

Does this seem possible? Are there any better solutions?
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post #2 of 13
8/9/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveclynn View Post

1. I'm Mounting an iPad on the wall. It will ONLY have an in-wall charger connected to it and will deliver audio via Airplay to the ATV.

Using Airplay, you'll get the same results if you use an AE, and won't need the outboard DAC.
Quote:
3. Next, an HDMI-to-Cat5 cable(or converter box) outputs from the HDMI jack on the back of the ATV to the NV-I8GEZP that comes packaged with and is connected to the Concerto via a packaged cable. This should, in theory, provide data information to the system that can be route to all the keypads

It will do NOTHING except potentially cause damage to your system. Those ports are RJ45 jacks, but they are not Ethernet, HDMI or anything else 'standard'. The keypads are small embedded computers that receive text / images over RS485 (think RS232/serial) using a NuVo-specific protocol/wiring called "NuVoNet".

If you want a digital library and Internet sources to show metadata on the keypads, you'll need to pony up for the MPS4, or build a solution using a CasaTunes or Autonomic Controls solution paired with the NuVoNet Adapter (NV-NNA).

The same answer would be true for any other vendors' keypad solutions, too...

Jeff
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post #3 of 13
1/16/13 at 1:31am
I have a similar set-up. I went with appleTVs as my music//video sources because they are much cheaper and much easier to use.
My toddler can control audio and video on an iPad & it has pretty versions of Sirius/Pandora/etc.

Getting the keypads to control the apple-TV is easy enough with IR. Getting the meta-data onto the keypads is tricky.
I have an appleTV rev 1 and a appleTV rev 3 hooked up to my Concerto.

The appleTV is a perfect source. It has a decent hard-disk & syncs to my Mac via iTunes. (No AirPlay) I can control it via the remote app on my phone or iPad.
The remote protocol is possible to access. I built a Fez Panda II-based box for $70 that can communicate with the appleTv via ethernet and can communicate
with the NuVo via rs232. (Today I would do it with a $25 raspberry Pi + an old USB2serial cable). The box updates the keypad meta-data with
the info from the appleTv. I also have it communicate play-pause/next/prev buttons back to appleTv.
The box also allows my home theater receiver to be a virtual 9th zone by translating keypad commands to the receiver and displaying status info back on the keypad.
The box also does a daily clock sync between the NuVo and a time server (my NuVo used to gain about a minute a week).
The box is also my doorbell (mp3 library on the Fez Panda gets played into src 6 and I issue the #PAGE commands for the NuVo pager function)

I wish I could change the NuVo menus for this source via rs232 (without having to buy a NuVo Net adapter or music server) - but not a big deal, since
music selection is much easier on an ipad anyway.

The appleTV3 is different matter ... so far. I don't believe anyone has decoded the remote protocol for appleTV 2 or 3. There is no open way to
get the info from the appleTV. The remote app gets the meta-data,, even from most airPlay apps- there is an IOS API for that.
The appleTV3 has not been broken yet. If (when) is jail-broken, I will make it my mission to get some code inside that allows for a open protocol
remote connection! Something may exists for the appleTv2 (since that has been broken), but I am not sure. So nice AirPlay, but no meta-data.
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post #4 of 13
1/24/13 at 12:34am
EricPOlson, I'd love to hear more about your setup. In particular, I'd like to know more about the sw you're running to bridge between the AppleTV gen 1 and the NuVo protocols. thanks
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post #5 of 13
1/24/13 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by js19707 View Post

EricPOlson, I'd love to hear more about your setup. In particular, I'd like to know more about the sw you're running to bridge between the AppleTV gen 1 and the NuVo protocols. thanks

I don't think he is... From his note, and the fact that he doesn't have the NuVoNet adapter, I believe the only thing he's doing with the AppleTV is IR control from the keypads. If you're not aware, you can control source devices from the NuVo keypads by programming the IR codes into the up/down/play/pause buttons for each non-NuVo source.

Getting metadata onto the keypads is possible if you have a NuVoNet adapter, and can harvest the data from the source device.

Jeff
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post #6 of 13
1/24/13 at 12:41pm
The box essentially allows communication between the NuVo system (RS232)
and my appleTv Rev 1 (http requests). It does handles direct control (no IR)
of the appleTv and meta-data display on the NuVo keypads.

Before the box, I mapped the appleTv source IR to sony DVD player IR signals- then
I taught the AppleTV those codes. Programming apple IR data into the NuVo never
quite worked 100% of the time - esp with associated remotes. I still do this for my
AppleTv 3 (since I can't get the meta-data from the appleTv 3 yet.)

Here is a quick, but detailed summary of box I created:

It is a Fez Panda II with ethernet shield, music (mp3/ogg) shield, and serial ports
So it runs C# & has a nice library of features (http server, time server requests, etc)
I have under 1500 lines of custom C# code (and C# adds a lot of one-character lines)

It talks to the appleTv 1 via http requests using the "remote" protocol.
(define here: http://dacp.jsharkey.org/ - I did the pairing on a linux machine.
It keeps track of song, artist, album, state, position.
It also can send play/pause/prev/next commands directly to the appleTv (no IR)

It talks to my NuVo concerto via RS232 (no NuVoNet adapter)
[google for the "Grand Concerto and Essentia G Serial Control Protocol"]
It sends metadata to src 1 (appleTv) using the S1DSPINFO and S1DISPLINEx commands
(so appleTv metadata gets displayed on any keypad that has src 1 selected)
It listens to the NuVo for source 1 commands (#Z*S1xxxxx)
(PLAYPAUSE/PREV/NEXT keypad presses translate to appleTv http commands)
Note: In my NuVo setup, play/prev/next are mapped to a dummy IR signal so I don't
get "No Macro Associated" warnings. HPLAYPAUSE wipes out the playlist (stop)
Once a day, it checks a NTP server for the correct time & syncs the NuVo using CFGTIME
(because my NuVo internal clock is a few minutes/week too fast!)
It also communicates with Zone 20 keypad. Zone 20 is my main home theater receiver.
The Denon receiver has a RS232 port connected up to the box.
Zone 20 keypresses get mapped to receiver commands (switch source, volume, power)
Receiver commands get mapped to Zone 20 settings. I use Source 2 macros to display
on source 2 the exact receiver source (FM, USB, Pandora, etc) You can pick these special
sources with the NuVo Favorites menu. The receiver itself has multiple zones, but
I have not taken advantage of that yet. This way I get a "real" receiver as part of my
NuVo setup - same keypad interface and I get a bonus zone - 9 zones on a
single Nuvo Concerto. (6 normal, 2 need amps, 1 RS232 enabled HTR)

It talks to my receiver via RS232 as I said before.

It also acts as my doorbell/paging system. When somebody presses the doorbell,
it plays the real Westminster chime (mp3 from the British Gov website) on source 6.
It sends the NuVo the "*PAGE1" command so it plays everywhere (and *PAGE0) when
the sample is finished. (other sounds can get played as well)
I am also testing a "pre-doorbell" - dogs barking on the zone near the door when
my front-door camera motion detector senses somebody. - I need to add a "shut up"
switch. Essentially I can play any mp3 sample over the whole house or in
any specific zone anytime I want to. (I love the NuVo for this ability)

It has a web-server, so I can check on things or change settings easily.

It would be fun to have a NuVoNet adapter, that opens up the ability to do interactive menus.
But honestly, nothing can compare to the "Remote" app on an iPad (or even iPhone) IMHO,
so it would be hard to justify the cost and effort.

Let me know if you want more details or source code.
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post #7 of 13
1/24/13 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricPOlson View Post

It talks to the appleTv 1 via http requests using the "remote" protocol.
(define here: http://dacp.jsharkey.org/ - I did the pairing on a linux machine.
It keeps track of song, artist, album, state, position.
It also can send play/pause/prev/next commands directly to the appleTv (no IR)

Hmmm, so is should work by pointing to an iTunes instance as well?
Quote:
It talks to my NuVo concerto via RS232 (no NuVoNet adapter)
[google for the "Grand Concerto and Essentia G Serial Control Protocol"]
It sends metadata to src 1 (appleTv) using the S1DSPINFO and S1DISPLINEx commands
(so appleTv metadata gets displayed on any keypad that has src 1 selected)
It listens to the NuVo for source 1 commands (#Z*S1xxxxx)
(PLAYPAUSE/PREV/NEXT keypad presses translate to appleTv http commands)

Interesting - I ran into the limits of the RS232 direct interface when trying to get the Source menus to work, so I went down the NNA path anyway. I thought there were more limitations beyond that when using the RS232 for source integration, but I'll take another look. Even with the NNA, you still want the RS232 pass-through installed as there are messages that don't show up on NuVoNet that are useful. Specifically, the #ALLOFF doesn't show up without it. Which I think is a bug - and odd that the tuners react to the condition, but the command doesn't appear on the NNA - I suspect there's a tuner-specific message sent that I don't see...

I may have to add some more support to the bits I done. Getting metadata onto the keypads without requiring the NNA with the limitation of "no menu support" is a pretty good tradeoff.
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Note: In my NuVo setup, play/prev/next are mapped to a dummy IR signal so I don't get "No Macro Associated" warnings.

Good workaround!
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It also communicates with Zone 20 keypad. Zone 20 is my main home theater receiver.
The Denon receiver has a RS232 port connected up to the box.
Zone 20 keypresses get mapped to receiver commands (switch source, volume, power)
Receiver commands get mapped to Zone 20 settings. I use Source 2 macros to display
on source 2 the exact receiver source (FM, USB, Pandora, etc) You can pick these special
sources with the NuVo Favorites menu. The receiver itself has multiple zones, but
I have not taken advantage of that yet. This way I get a "real" receiver as part of my
NuVo setup - same keypad interface and I get a bonus zone - 9 zones on a
single Nuvo Concerto. (6 normal, 2 need amps, 1 RS232 enabled HTR)

Ha! I hadn't thought about using the keypad as essentially a remote for a non-NuVo zone. I think you can restrict a source to a specific zone (disable it on other zones), which may help the keypad act pretty "normal" and not have the AVR show up as a source in other zones where it doesn't make sense.
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It would be fun to have a NuVoNet adapter, that opens up the ability to do interactive menus.
But honestly, nothing can compare to the "Remote" app on an iPad (or even iPhone) IMHO,
so it would be hard to justify the cost and effort.

I picked up a "spare" one on eBay for ~$120. Effort is just the additional commands (once you get the whole thing to work, which you already have), the RS232 pass-through means your existing code should work unmodified with the NNA in the loop. Watch for the NNA and for the NV-MP (MusicPort), which is just the NNA bundled with the Mirage software license. Same hardware although the NV-MP version dropped some LEDs.
Quote:
Let me know if you want more details or source code.

Might hit you up on that... biggrin.gif

Jeff
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post #8 of 13
1/27/13 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Hmmm, so is should work by pointing to an iTunes instance as well?
yes, itunes on pc/mac still supports the older Bonjour authentication. The apple TV 2 & 3 only support the "home sharing" authentiation - that needs an itunes ID, I have not heard of anyone decoding that. I love/hate apple
Quote:
Interesting - I ran into the limits of the RS232 direct interface when trying to get the Source menus to work, so I went down the NNA path anyway. I thought there were more limitations beyond that when using the RS232 for source integration, but I'll take another look. Even with the NNA, you still want the RS232 pass-through installed as there are messages that don't show up on NuVoNet that are useful. Specifically, the #ALLOFF doesn't show up without it. Which I think is a bug - and odd that the tuners react to the condition, but the command doesn't appear on the NNA - I suspect there's a tuner-specific message sent that I don't see...
That is good to know. There is a good chance I will eventually find a NNA on ebay. It would be fun to do some more elaborate menu work. It is nice to get input from somebody on such a specific project.
Quote:
I may have to add some more support to the bits I done. Getting metadata onto the keypads without requiring the NNA with the limitation of "no menu support" is a pretty good tradeoff.
I'm working on getting the AppleTv to play a preset-playlist and then adding that playlist name to the macro list (with a dummy IR). I get the #Z*S1IRPREn & #Z*S1IRCTLn messages from the NuVo.
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Ha! I hadn't thought about using the keypad as essentially a remote for a non-NuVo zone. I think you can restrict a source to a specific zone (disable it on other zones), which may help the keypad act pretty "normal" and not have the AVR show up as a source in other zones where it doesn't make sense.
Sources 1-4 are shared house-wide. Source 5 comes from the receiver's zone-2 preamp out - so any zone can hear the receiver's extra sources. (Source 6 is the Panda board - doorbell & sound effects). Selecting source 1-4 on the NuVo keypad sets the receiver to the corresponding source - typically the digital/hmdi version of the source. Selecting source 5 sets the receiver to the last "extra" source. There are macros for the extra sources (Directv, xbox, tape, usb, pandora, etc) that show up in the NuVo favorites - they switch the receiver to the proper source & change the source 5 display to the current extra source. This is a work in progress still. I need to take advantage of zone 2 better (same as primary zone always now). I can also get metadata from the receiver on some sources that could go back on the NuVo keypads.
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I picked up a "spare" one on eBay for ~$120. Effort is just the additional commands (once you get the whole thing to work, which you already have), the RS232 pass-through means your existing code should work unmodified with the NNA in the loop. Watch for the NNA and for the NV-MP (MusicPort), which is just the NNA bundled with the Mirage software license. Same hardware although the NV-MP version dropped some LEDs.
I've looked through the NNA serial commands and it looks like something I will have to get into.
Quote:
Might hit you up on that... biggrin.gif
My appleTv library is a pretty clean C# class. It is multi-threaded (one thread needs to wait for the appleTv's response to status requests - typically when the song or status changes) It dumps the DAAP data into a HashTable, so you can always grab the current status. Just send me a message.
I still think a raspberry Pi would be the perfect platform for this at $25-$35.
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post #9 of 13
3/10/13 at 5:55pm
Finally someone is trying this, I have been struggling to try to learn how to program just so I can do this!

It is possible to control and receive metadata (including cover art!) from a jailbroken Apple TV (black) using http requests. Firecore has released an API which enables you to send IR commands via http requests. The API documentation is here http://support.firecore.com/entries/21375902

You can AirPlay to the Apple TV from any mac/pc running iTunes AND ANY IOS Device!!! biggrin.gif

Whenever the media playing changes the Apple TV updates an xml document that the ATV serves up via http! It responds to http requests for all of the control functions. The problem I am having is programming a Raspberry Pi to poll the AppleTV for the XML file then pass the fields to the NuVo via RS232 commands.

It would be super easy to setup as well if we used the local hostnames so no need for static ip's, just plug and play.

The Raspberry Pi program could ask a series of questions so even a layman could set it up via ssh.

Example:

ssh pi@raspberrypi.local

"Please enter the NuVo source number (1-6) of which your Apple TV is connected to the NuVO"

Then the next prompt

"Please enter the name of the Apple TV (setup in the settings menu on the Apple TV)"

It then uses the name to poll the following address at a defined period of time http://NAME_OF_APPLE-TV.local/npx which contains all of the metadata in an xml document!
Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" ?>
<nowplaying>
        <name>Song Name</name>
        <album>Album Name</album>
        <artist>Artist</artist>
        <type>Song</type>
        <coverArtURL>http://NAME_OF_APPLE-TV.local/coverart.png</coverArtURL>
</nowplaying>

If the Raspberry Pi is sent any key pad presses from the NuVo via RS232 it sends the appropriate command with the http request
Code:
http://NAME_OF_APPLE-TV.local/<Action>=<Value>

Available Remote Commands

Remote Action = <Value>

Menu = 1
Menu Hold = 2
Arrow Up = 3
Arrow Down = 4
Select = 5
Arrow Left = 6
Arrow Right = 7
Play/Pause = 10
Pause = 15
Play = 16
Stop = 17
Fast Forward = 18
Rewind = 19
Chapter Skip Forward = 20
Chapter Skip Backwards = 21
List/Select Hold = 22

Is the RS232 communication between the NuVo and Raspberry Pi something you are able to program?

I can't wait to hear your thoughts!!
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post #10 of 13
3/12/13 at 6:58am
This is very interesting Eric, please expand on this. I use an ATV gen 1 running the XBMC hack. So far I've only been able to get metadata to an IOS or Android device. I would love to be able to get metadata to my Russound keypads. Perhaps you could start a blog. I think quite a few people are interested in a solution to this problem.
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post #11 of 13
3/13/13 at 7:06am
I've looked at the firecore api and it seems ok and fairly simple to use. As far as I can tell, it is not event-driven, so you need to keep polling the device. I also don't see fields for current time/total time, so you won't be able to use the track position on the keypad. When they finally Jailbreak the appleTv 3, I'll probably add the firecore API support to my code.

I am able to get metadata from my appleTv 3 to my NuVo keypads right now, but I'm not happy with the solution. I can airplay from my appleTv3 to my Pioneer receiver & get the data from there. Unfortunately, it hijacks the receiver to do this and limits the full set-up.

I don't have a raspberry pi to play with yet, but I should be able to help answer some questions.
I'm not sure what language you are comfortable with and plan to use. Probably python (or perl).
EIther just hard-code the nuvo source # and device name or make it completely
plug-n-play I would try to do something clever like store the hostname of the appleTv as the NuVo source name.
For each source s=1-6, send the NuVo "*SsName?" and then get the name from response.
Then try a request for info from that name. Something like this (perl):
Code:
if ($nuvoResponse =~ /#S(\d)NAME"(.*)"/) {  # nuvo rs232 response
          $src = $1;
          $src_name = $2 . ".local";
          $src_name =~ s/ /-/g;  # spaces to dashes like appleTv does ("Apple Tv" in name menu becomes apple-tv.local)
          $req = HTTP::Request->new(GET => "http://$src_name/npx");
          $ua - LWP::UserAgent->new;
          $res = $ua->request($req);
          if ($res->is_success) {
                # NuVo src $src is associated with device at $src_name
          }
      }

I've seen examples of people doing RS232 communication with a raspberry pi. There is a UART on the board
(you can buy a board to convert to rs232) or you can use a usb-to-rs323 converter (I would research this
to make sure the OS support the exact chip-set - people have this working, but some run into driver issues)

I see this as a very do-able project. All the tricky stuff has probably been done.
I'm going to be too busy with family/work to start playing with a raspberry pi for now, but would gladly answer
questions.
Edited by EricPOlson - 3/13/13 at 8:21am
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post #12 of 13
3/13/13 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwayneS View Post

This is very interesting Eric, please expand on this. I use an ATV gen 1 running the XBMC hack. So far I've only been able to get metadata to an IOS or Android device. I would love to be able to get metadata to my Russound keypads. Perhaps you could start a blog. I think quite a few people are interested in a solution to this problem.
I can probably help you a bit. Are you normally running XBMC or just have the hack? XBMC has it's own API (the latest version is really well done) I never use XBMC on my appleTv1 - it is just too slow. Someday I might get a dedicated XMBC box, but I don't have a need quite yet. A jailbreak is not necessary to use the native "remote" API on the appleTv 1. Like I said in a previous post, http://dacp.jsharkey.org/ is the best source of info on that API. In summary: first you need to pair the appleTv (I did that on a linux box - I did not want the pairing overhead in my code for something that only needs to be done once), Then you login via http requests using that code.
PM me and I can send the C# code I've put together. I've seen a few python versions on the web as well. Or give me some more details what you are using to connect. (computer? embedded controller? multi-threaded? etc)

My system is really coming together now. It has passed the wife & kids tests for usability. The Pioneer receiver (SC-1222) is really set-up to use a 6 line menu for it's digital section (pandora, internet radio, iPod), so now I have a good reason to pick-up a NuVoNet adapter/Old music port.. Coding that would be natural.

I should start a blog & publish the code I have. (when I have a little more time). It is such a nice, integrated solution to have a "free" Zone 9 that is a high powered 7.2 channel amp - it uses the source 6 display, but that is the doorbell anyway. In Zone 9 we get digital quality of all the nuvo sources plus more. In Zones 1-8, we have sources 1-4 plus a special source 5 (which is the reciever's Zone 2).
Source 5 selects any one of the receiver's sources (with meta-data display). I ran the receiver;s Zone 2 video to a few zones so they have video too. The family just picks the source they want on any NuVo keypad's "Favorites".
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post #13 of 13
3/19/13 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricPOlson View Post

I've looked at the firecore api and it seems ok and fairly simple to use. As far as I can tell, it is not event-driven, so you need to keep polling the device. I also don't see fields for current time/total time, so you won't be able to use the track position on the keypad. When they finally Jailbreak the appleTv 3, I'll probably add the firecore API support to my code.

I am able to get metadata from my appleTv 3 to my NuVo keypads right now, but I'm not happy with the solution. I can airplay from my appleTv3 to my Pioneer receiver & get the data from there. Unfortunately, it hijacks the receiver to do this and limits the full set-up.

I don't have a raspberry pi to play with yet, but I should be able to help answer some questions.
I'm not sure what language you are comfortable with and plan to use. Probably python (or perl).
EIther just hard-code the nuvo source # and device name or make it completely
plug-n-play I would try to do something clever like store the hostname of the appleTv as the NuVo source name.
For each source s=1-6, send the NuVo "*SsName?" and then get the name from response.
Then try a request for info from that name. Something like this (perl):
Code:
if ($nuvoResponse =~ /#S(\d)NAME"(.*)"/) {  # nuvo rs232 response
          $src = $1;
          $src_name = $2 . ".local";
          $src_name =~ s/ /-/g;  # spaces to dashes like appleTv does ("Apple Tv" in name menu becomes apple-tv.local)
          $req = HTTP::Request->new(GET => "http://$src_name/npx");
          $ua - LWP::UserAgent->new;
          $res = $ua->request($req);
          if ($res->is_success) {
                # NuVo src $src is associated with device at $src_name
          }
      }

I've seen examples of people doing RS232 communication with a raspberry pi. There is a UART on the board
(you can buy a board to convert to rs232) or you can use a usb-to-rs323 converter (I would research this
to make sure the OS support the exact chip-set - people have this working, but some run into driver issues)

I see this as a very do-able project. All the tricky stuff has probably been done.
I'm going to be too busy with family/work to start playing with a raspberry pi for now, but would gladly answer
questions.

That is a great idea!

Have a standard name format "NuVo AirPlay Src #" and then like you said when plugged in the Raspberry pi just keeps looking for the 6 hostnames till it finds one and then "learns" the source number of the AppleTV!

Thats Genius!

As for the programming/code I gave up trying to learn it when I had to tie into the serial drivers, it was just much to confusing so I am thinking maybe I would post the job to getacoder.com or something like that because all this is wayyyy over my head.

Thanks so much Eric for the great idea. It takes out all of the user setup in the equation, its truly plug and play now!
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