Completely impressed by GS Calibration... - Page 2

You too, Chad?

It's really hard to mess up a 632. As straightforward as they come.

I calibrated an 844 yesterday utilizing ControlCal. My client purchased his set from BB. He was smart enough to shop around for his calibrator. I can say pretty confidently that there is no way a geek squad employee can (or would) calibrate this display to its full potential.

the sharp's are straightforward, but require at least twice through the workflow, which just takes time...

so basically, like what weve been saying on this topic for 5 or 6 years now...

A few of the GS guys actually "get it". sadly, not many, but a few do. Always shop calibrators like you would any other service provider (mechanic, handyman, etc)

After reading through this I have to say this is a pretty amusing thread. All the thread was trying to state it seems to me in the beginning was that GS did a better job than you would assume given the relentless bashing BBY/Magnolia/GS all receive across the internet. As a former employee for these three I do have to agree that IN GENERAL the employee's are grossly under trained. I was only one of very few who worked there and that actually spent time outside of work learning and understanding how the equipment actually works. I was criticized a few times towards the end of my time there for not "asking for the sell" or pushing the credit card down their throats. I would say I was just doing the decent thing and letting them think about it, and I hate pushy fake salesman.

I actually won a calibration once while I was a salesman for selling the most in the department over the course of the month. The calibrator was supposed to be one of Geek Squad's best in Missouri. Well he sowed up and hour late, spent 30 minutes "calibrating" the display and explained next to nothing. Granted this is probably because I was an employee, but that's no excuse. The level of service he received is a rarity in the company, but it seems that even with that above average interaction, you may have missed out still...

Hey,

I scheduled the GS calibration for me next Friday Am.

I like to calibrate my own stuff,.... but it's free and I'm curious to see what they do.

-Brian

Eagerly anticipating your impressions, Brian. I had my tv GS calibrated 2.5 years ago and I can not watch tv or movies at anyone else's house. The tech that I had gave me the same breakdown. Showed me my panels performance before and after and did extensive A/B-ing for me to show me exactly what was being corrected and when. Watching the whole process with the test patterns and the read outs on the laptop was both fascinating and educational. Can't wait to hear how your experience goes!

(Thanks for having the guts to say it). Sorry I thought you where talking about both THX and ISF, But I guess you where not. So I retract that statement.

As I am sure you know charts and numbers can be manipulated, and you can have a true chart and numbers that look good on paper, but in fact are not very good when used on that display they are made for.

As far as being THX or ISF certified, that doesn't mean a whole lot. Just take a look at the THX settings that Panasonic uses on there VT50's and the header THX. Are they ok, yes in most cases for the average viewer those settings are ok, but nowhere near ideal.

ss
Edited by sillysally - 9/12/12 at 7:03am

I have a UN55E61000 scheduled for next week. It had been calibrated by BB a month ago and the owner says he can't see any difference and he doesn't like the picture for the $250 he was charged. In July last year I had been in the same store where he purchased the TV. They had a "calibrated" demo used to push the service. The demonstration I watched consisted of the salesman switching between the Dynamic and Movie modes of an D8000 pointing out how much better the calibrated Movie mode was. Oh gee, ya think?

He reluctantly gave me the remote and I found that only the 2p had been adjusted and the 10p and CMS had been left untouched. When I asked about this he proudly pointed out that all Samsung calibrations are done in the "factory" menu.

If the BB calibration on the 6100 is by the same guy who did the D8000 I know what to expect.
Edited by buzzard767 - 9/12/12 at 3:06pm

I think Michael was referring to the following:

http://www.thxvideotech.com/forum/content.php?119-ISF-II-and-THX-Classes-My-Experience-A-Review-by-AVS-Moderator-Jon-Spackman

and

http://www.thxvideotech.com/forum/showthread.php?542-THX-Certified-Video-Calibrator

Thanks for pointing that out, I think you are right, he was simply pointed out ISF not so good, THX good.

I was simply pointing out how good is THX when using THX in this context, when Panasonic uses THX settings or so they say in there setting menu on a VT50.

btw, one of the THX calibrators on that THX list, I saw using Dewayne's settings for a client that Dewayne had posted for a Kuro. I called him on it and he was man enough to admit it.

My question to you is, When you are done with the THX class are you really being certified by the official George Lucas company THX ?

ss

I will edit that post

Greetings

It is the real deal THX or they would have their lawyers on us in a heart beat. The program is created and vetted by the folks at THX. Completely sanctioned and people completing the program are permitted to use the logos (with certain restrictions). We did the original presentation to a room of engineers and scientists at the THX headquarters in San Rafeal, CA back in Nov 2007. Two days of going through all the science of the slide set ... after that, THX had monitors (head educator) watch how we performed over the next two classes to see if we the instructors were up to the task of teaching this stuff. After that probation period, it has pretty much been hands off the program and we have the freedom to alter/modify/update the program as we see fit. We won their confidence that we know our stuff and by god, we actually know how to teach this too.

George Lucas is a silent partner in the company these days. He owns about 20-25% of the company. 4 or 5 other groups own the rest.

Copying numbers is a big no no as taught in the class. I'd like to know the name of the calibrator that did that please. But what has happened here is also proof that try as we might, THX people will screw up willingly it appears. Thanks for that information.

If you want to learn more about the history of the THX video calibration program, I recommend that you visit the TLVEXP.com web site and start reading the preamble home page which is the first part of the history of this stuff.

You are only getting an official THX calibration when the calibrator hands a THX plaque to you at the end of the process. The calibration reports have to be submitted to THX for peer review for oversight purposes.

THX calibrators are free to perform "calibrations" as they see fit, but cannot call it a THX Calibration unless they go through this process. (Not like THX has the resources to stop them anyway)

Beyond this, the approach to calibration is very different between what is taught in the ISF classes versus the THX approach. (The article covers this.)

It should be stressed that the THX program does not have the power to teach morality and ethical behavior to people. If a person is intent on acting in an unethical manner, no program will stop that. The foundation of the THX program and the ISF program are very different. But where a person decides to go after their certification is entirely up to them. This is not an organization with gobs of money that can police its own members. Some still just go through the program with no intention of applying what we teach them. They just want letters on their business card. Had a student recently say after the class how we never covered the subject of 3D and yet he missed the entire 25 minute discussion of me putting 3D glasses on an i1 pro meter and talking about 3D calibration to the class. People will learn what they want to learn and perceive reality the way they want it.

Regards
Edited by Michael TLV - 9/18/12 at 12:37pm

Though there was some veto power in place from Lucasfilms, about 10 years ago, a majority of THX was spun off to Creative Labs... who knows the ownership currently (there were more press releases in the day but they have been cleverly "managed" over the last several years... Creative Labs wasn't exactly what audiophiles wanted to see but Creative was/is a master at product licensing).

The THX Video Calibrators program (most of it) was put together by Gregg and Michael anyways and really has nothing to do with the old stuff..
Edited by turbe - 9/12/12 at 9:29am

Sorry no can do, he was a man about it and I respect that.

btw, I guest there is differences between what you do and a THX certified home theater technician II, the reason why I say that is UMR (Jeff W) is not on your list.

Thanks for the info.


That's what I thought, thanks for the insight.

ss

I can see your point.

I just want to point out, though, that Michael and Gregg are responsible for who is THX certified and who is not, and it probably pains them to hear that someone who received their stamp of approval is cutting corners in such a big way. Therefore it is a disservice to them and to the rest of the calibration community when bad calibrators (particularly THX ones) go unreported.

Greetings

THX has a few designations.

Certified Professional ... Meaning they only took THX Video Level 1 ... (Cannot offer THX certified video calibrations of any sort since they don't even have to buy gear.)

Certified Professional - Video Calibration ... Meaning they took the whole 3 day program (level 1+2) and have the right kind of gear to do the work and submitted 10 calibrations for review by THX.

HT I ... Home Theater Level 1 class (Think Audio 1)
HT II ... Home Theater Level 2 class (Think Audio 2)

Jeff took both HT classes so that is what he uses. Home Theater Technician II

(I'm not interested in you plastering the person's name on here. I would like it privately so we know to contact that person when it comes time for continuing education. They would need it.)

Regards

Yes I understand that, but if I started to do that there are others I could also show actual proof of at the very least not caring.
In the end all that happens is a lot of bad feelings.
btw, you are not one of them, I have only seen a calibration report or two of yours.
By any chance did you calibrate the Sharp at the last shootout?


Yes that is what I thought.

I have seen your settings that was posted on AVS for a few hours and tried them on a same model Kuro. So I do have a idea on how you calibrate, at-least on a 9G Kuro 141.

ss

No, I haven't done any of the Shootout sets. I just did an 80LE844u in your area, though.

So, I will be buying a vt50 65" here at the end of september. Where I work I have several amazing sets close by (notable the sammy 8000 and the sharp elite) and it blows em away... in my humble opinion. I'm not even that big of a guy on 3d, but the 3d prowess of the VT is just sickly amazing. While I don't think that the picture on it, in THX Cinema mode, is quite as good as my calibrated Sony KDL-V from a few years ago... Out of the box the VT is one of the closest panels to calibrated. Like you said SillySally, THX Cinema may be good for the masses, but nothing will compare to having it ISF Certified. I will be getting it calibrated hopefully by the end of October and I will do my damndest to get the results and post them. I really can not wait to see what that panel can do when I get the ISFCCC modes enabled and set. Under .5 error rate when 3.0 is acceptable is truly astounding. Great discussions all around, and I really appreciate your posts as well Michael!

On a side note, this will be my first Plasma and I'm both equally nervous and excited. I strive for absolute 100% authentic reproduction on what I'm viewing (as I will be going either into the film industry doing either motion graphics or 3d animation or the video game industry) and from everything I have seen personally/reading/researching... the VT50 is among the best period, specially for the price. If anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know!

Yes, learn to calibrate yourself. imo the VT50 is a very interesting TV to calibrate, on one side it doesn't take much calibrating to bring it within spect's but still about the same PQ as you are seeing now with default setting. On the the other side it can take a great deal of time (2 or 3 hours) to really get it right and do very little "trade off's" if any, mainly because all the calibration controls do work very well. My meaning of right is viewing the movie as the director intended the movie to be view, what ever that movie is.

As you are finding out using THX modes the VT 50 is enjoyable to view Blu Ray's (that's what I use my VT50 for most of the time), and for that matter 3D Blu Rays. I was viewing the new release of the movie Titanic 3D, in THX 3D mode. imo that movie in 3D is of reference quality, it blow my socks off.

I haven't done a 3D calibration for ISF 3D yet, I am waiting for Calman's new 5;0 to be released and also wondering if my I1Pro2 or my I1Pro will be able to take good readings considering how low the FL is when using the 3D glasses and how they are made.

ss

Just had my (free) Geek Squad Calibration done.

Here's the story,..


I scheduled the calibration for between 8 and noon and they called this morning before 8 to say they would arrive around 9. Sure enough at 9:06 they rolled in.

It was an ISF tech and his boss who came along because he claims to have never sat in on a projector calibration and he just wanted to watch.

Both the fellas were named Chris but I'll just go on talking about the ISF tech Chris as the other fella was just along for the ride.

First up was a look at the setup. Then came in the big briefcase and tripod.

A sencore VP403 test pattern generator was patched into my system and also connected to a laptop running CalMan.

A Chroma 5 was tripod mounted at the screen.

Calman had control of the test pattern generator so the process could be sped up considerably.

I'm glad I did what I did on the greyscale yesterday. The tech mentioned the grey scale was good apart from a red-ish 20IRE which is something I did know about yesterday but I didn't have time/energy to sort out.

So,.. he didn't spend much time fixing the greyscale but rather spent lots of time trying to adjust the color GAMUT.

Now, I tend to leave color processing off on my PJ because it's on board color processing (Sony's Real Color Processing) doesn't function correctly so using it is very difficult.

He certainly worked with it quite a lot though.

He prepared a report of before and after that he will email me later and I'll share it at that time.

The resulting image was great.... Of course,... I think it was great before too anyways.

The "feel" I got from the visit was good. Here was an ISF trained calibrator with countless years of experience who came equipped with excellent hardware and software and knew how to use them effectively.

I had no idea what to expect but I love what they delivered.

If there's any specific questions people have I'll try to answer them.

Final thoughts that for FREE I recommend it.

For $250,... I would have a hard time getting excited about paying. If I had $250 I would shop for the particular ISF guy I wanted... then, it may cost more than $250 but that may be better too.

-Brian

Here's the graphs





Clearly,.. I've seen better graphs. (I may have posted some better graphs.)

But,.. keep in mind the color management controls on my pj (Sony VW60) are wonky so improvements in gamut are hard earned without an outboard video processor.

I've calibrated a few VW60's. I have never had a post-calibration report look this poor. With the equipment that was utilized, color management adjustments shouldn't be performed (even if the CMS actually worked) let alone on a projection system. What happened to your gamma? Is the picture really that washed out or were the measurements improperly taken? It appears that there was a lot of room interaction with the measurements.

With all due respect, I have many concerns with your post-calibration readings.

I would add using a C5 alone doesn't give you any assurance of absolute color accuracy... back when I was searching for a calibrator for my LG LCD, every single one I looked at had at least a i1 Pro spectro in addition to a good colorimeter (however, as you might remember the guy I chose didn't use his spectro, despite bringing it with him).

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. I have some concerns about the graphs too.

The resulting picture quality is actually very good and so the graphs are a bit misleading.

Looking at the CIE graph is the most disturbing. I own a i1pro and display2 and tend to do my own calibrations. I scheduled this calibration because it was free and I wanted to see what best buy would deliver. And I wanted to share the information about the service to other members who qualify and wonder what they will get.

Anyways, my own gamut measurements are almost identical to the lab results shown in home theater magazine's review of the vw 60 and that's nothing like we see here. Neither the normal or wide default to correct gamut but it's much closer than what you see on this CIE graph where clearly red and green are overloaded and pegged at max for reasons unknown.

I have better gear and can perform a better calibration but I was surpized in many ways by how much bb brought to the site. Good tools and generally a good tech. I was happy with what I got. (it was free. If I didn't have the calibration stuff I have this would have been much better than the defaults which are mostly blue.)

I know I can fix gamma and I tend to not adjust gamut on my vw60. ( though I may give rcp another try because he did get the brightness of the colors closer and it didn't seem to generate artifacts.)

I've been here at avs for over ten years and I've always been an enthusiast. I only recently got fair tools though. This service would be great for someone with no gear who qualifies to have it done free.

If they have to pay the $250 though, it may be better to shop for the ISF tech you trust.

-brian
Edited by Brian Hampton - 9/14/12 at 3:46pm

hello,just purchased 55LM7600 tv i am a silver member at BB, and i also get a perk from them which is free calibration for ($249.99) even it is free and i can save $249.99 from my pocket, i opted out, i know its free and a lot of money but still i dont wanna give them a try to do it on my set, i just contacted one of the Best ISF Calibrator in the country Kevin Miller to do the work, and i think i made a right decision by going to the Pro, that he knows what he is doing and very dedicated to his job. even it cost more than what BB price is. but hey its worth it.

About the graphs I posted,... Clearly something went wrong with that data and I don't think it's true to the work done.

I will hopefully run measurements myself to get a better idea of the status.

The pq currently is very good though. Me and my kids watched titanic yesterday and skin tones were natural and blacks of lots of tuxedos were impressive. Shadow detail was high and there was no banding or crushing.

I know there was a problem during the calibration because the batteries in the signal generator died and that crashed the laptop running Calman. So I suspect the "before" was not really "before" and I think the tech may have eventually struggled with some of the projectors memory structure.

-Brian

According to the charts, the grayscale at 30 IRE is worse, gamma is worse, and light output was reduced by roughly 33%.
I'd be interested in what you get when you retake measurements.

You get what you pay for. More evidence of why you will be hard pressed to find anyone who recommends a BB calibration.

As a side note ... I hate the expression you get what you pay for.

No need to go read reviews on anything... Everything is priced right. I wasted time looking at houses when all I needed to do was decide how much I wanted to spend. There's never been a good or bad deal.

When I go to buy a blu ray I just get a $24.99 title because then I know it's going to be good.


-Brian
Edited by Brian Hampton - 9/19/12 at 3:48pm