Completely impressed by GS Calibration... - Page 3

I'll see if a man got what he paid for when he upchucked $250 for a BB calibration not long ago. I'll be calibrating his Samsung LCD tomorrow night.

Greetings

I like to use the other saying. You may not get what you pay for, but you will pay for what you get.

regards

I've seen some other geek squad graphs now that we're posted after mine.

Some of them show improvement, at least in the collected data.

I think it's cool that they send an ISF trained feller out with fair equipment to give it a shot.

Now,... Maybe it's oly the lamest ISF fellas,.. I don't know.

I'll restate that the graphs I got were impressive in a bad way but the pq the person created wasn't bad. I watched titanic with my kids before making any adjustments and we all really enjoyed it and there was no blown out contrast or obvious black crush.

I have shortly thereafter redone my own way and my graphs are not perfect either. I basically leave gamut alone and just try to nail gamma and grey.

I've heard that one before and unlike the former, it's always true.

I think you've done a good thing trying to give as unbiased and fair job of reporting your findings with a GS calibration. Frankly, I am not surprised. The fact that the PQ looked good is the bottom line to a TV owner and if the results a TV owner got were better than "out of the box" then progress was made. This pretty much says that charts and graphs (collected data) do not necessarily represent what is seen on a screen. Which also is not surprising as I am sure we have all read many threads and postings here of members who have touted the last run in a calibration they have run as "the best". Or the last paid calibration they got was top notch including members reading this. Only to find that something was "off" or the charts looked good but the viewed image had some issue. There have been botched calibration jobs from all areas and experiences as related in the threads here on AVS. There will always be a question of whether the equipment, person using it, or software and how it is used produces the desired result. Since most , if any, do not have a true reference equipment recertification service next door or ways of verifying equipment we, the GS, or another calibrator uses; all a person has is the assumption that his particular equipment is accurate to specifications. Quite a big assumption actually.

So, the bottom line seems to indicate more often than not that IF a tech, calibrator, or TV owner has reasonable resources and knowledge on how to use them, good picture quality can be obtained. The "IF" represents a pretty large area of variations. I also am pleased with the excellent PQ I have gotten on the 3 LCD HDTVs I have obtained for over the past 5 years or so with the resources I've utilized. And charts and graphs were at odds with the results many times when compared to others.

And thank you for providing this information. After all, no matter who may do a calibration on a TV of video system . . if it doesn't turn out right there is always picture reset.
Edited by Phase700B - 9/21/12 at 6:01am

Last night I checked out the TV I referred to in an earlier post, a Samsung LCD UN55ES6100F. It had been purchased a couple months ago and was BB calibrated two weeks later. To my complete surprise, not only had 2p GS been adjusted, but 10p and the CMS as well. Then I found out that there was a second BB calibrator there getting OJT so I assume the instructor was showing him around the menu. They were in the house a total of an hour and a half. By the description the owner gave me, the BB meter was an X-Rite Chroma 5 so even if the software provided profiles the meter was old enough to have drifted. The calibration was accomplished in the Movie mode and I noticed that they had neglected to turn off a couple of the automatic functions. Basic settings were Movie, Backlight 18, Contrast 100, Brightness 45, and Sharpness 20.

I profiled a D3 from an i1Pro and made the "pre" readings as found. Briefly, the TV was blasting out 67 Foot Lamberts in a not overly bright room but like most non knowledgeable owners he had no problem with that. Green and Cyan were horrendous! I went back and remeasured Green 3 times manually.



It turned out that the CMS was inoperative in the Movie mode. The calibrators must have been in such a big hurry to get to lunch that they didn't even try anything else. The owner says he'll try and locate the written report he was given and I'm quite curious to see it.

I enabled Cal Day & Nite and found the CMS inop in Cal Day (it worked somewhat in Cal Night) so I switched the Gamut to Auto and went from there. Once GS & Gamma was adjusted the Colors fell into line like it was a Panasonic GT50. It was good enough that I included an extra report here showing the inner points. While impressed with color, the panel was a mess. I didn't measure MLL but my guess is it was around .04 MLL and uniformity was as bad as I've ever seen. As a result, dynamic range (53 FtL peak white) was terrible and deeper blacks if available would have been a big bonus.

BB vs THX CalibrationSummaryDetailed_AVS.pdf 457k .pdf file

Day AdvancedColorManagementReport_AVS.pdf 358k .pdf file

Does it reset the bank balance as well?

Sorry but my final word on the Get what you pay for side bar.

If you think you get what you pay for then buy HDMI cables at Best Buy instead of Monoprice.

-Brian

So a non gs pro-calibration is equivilent to buying monster cables from best buy ?

No.

If you have $250 you can call geek squad or call a ISF tech listed in this forum with references.

In one of those cases you will likely get more for your money.

Or you could do what I did and buy a used i1 pro for $200 and download the FREE HCFR and the FREE AVS709 disc.

If you have $80 for hdmi cables you can get an 8 footer (currently on sale at best buy) or get all the cables for your system and have enough left for a nice dinner (if you shop mono price.)

My only point was people who do the research sometimes get what they pay for.

You don't simply get what you pay for.

I bought Avia on DVD for $39.99 and replaced it with Digital Video Essentials for $14 but I only use AVS709 now which was FREE.


But,... I'm just weird about this concept and I'm done.
Edited by Brian Hampton - 9/21/12 at 11:33am

And this would be true no matter WHO you did a calibration or WHO you paid for it. Including what some folks have found here on AVS using non GS calibrators or buying used or new equipment.

Point is. . . . you simply can not know. All you can know is one piece of equipment or calibrator may be different than another. What the PQ looks like in the end is what DOES matter.

I agree that a proper GS great.
It is notifiable and fixes some irritating issues.
Combine it with a proper Color gamut and the WOW factor comes in.

Since you liked the GS, imagine how much you would like
the Color too.

Bottom line, Fixing one aspect only gets you 1/2 way there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I have a UN55E61000 scheduled for next week. It had been calibrated by BB a month ago and the owner says he can't see any difference and he doesn't like the picture for the $250 he was charged. In July last year I had been in the same store where he purchased the TV. They had a "calibrated" demo used to push the service. The demonstration I watched consisted of the salesman switching between the Dynamic and Movie modes of an D8000 pointing out how much better the calibrated Movie mode was. Oh gee, ya think?

He reluctantly gave me the remote and I found that only the 2p had been adjusted and the 10p and CMS had been left untouched. When I asked about this he proudly pointed out that all Samsung calibrations are done in the "factory" menu.

If the BB calibration on the 6100 is by the same guy who did the D8000 I know what to expect.

Now for.....the rest of the story.

There's simply too many 'what if's' that can explain this in many different ways.

What if the panel was cali'd properly, but a customer or kids picked up the remote and played with the settings? Theres nothing to stop any customer or kids from finding a samsung remote somewhere, and ruining the work.

Last time I checked, one can access CMS, greyscale and gamma using factory menus.

It's also easy for all of us to giggle at the sales guy flicking between dynamic and movie mode, because we all KNOW that just by selecting Movie outta the box its better than dynamic. Customers typically do not, and a good many of them will just leave it at that out of box and think that's how it should look. 99% of clients I talk to don't realise that movie is the most accurate OOB, and even think that's a marked improvement. The 'calibrated' TV is supposed to be calibrated, and actually is. What happens to it after the calibrator leaves the 'office' is out of his or her control.

Hell, even the salesman can twiddle with it. So yes, sure, theres a good chance that the majority of demo displays in BBY have had their panels done, but kids or customers have fiddled with it, and I bet out of desperation, the salesmen walk by, realise it looks goofy and just hit reset on the settings and flick it back to movie out of box mode, and reset the 'uncalibrated' one back to dynamic. It's better than nothing.

Moral of the story? Expecting any demo display in ANY retail shop that has been adjusted by a pro (wether it be a TV, cellphone demo, tablet area) will typically not last long, as you can't have stuff exposed to the public to touch and feel to remain in optimal conditions.

Stories abound in retail selling computers and whatnot, kids coming in, downloading porn screen savers, putting swear words in etc. If you let 200 people into ones home every day to browse I bet your TV would be goofy too...

Cheers!

Disclaimer: I do not work for GS, but I get a chance to talk to many of them.

*edit* For clarification.

In the Samsung in question, proper CMS, grayscale, and gamma controls for calibration are not in the service menu. There may be selections that have a broad impact on those things, but there's no 10 point white balance control, for example.

No, here's the rest of the story. The E model mentioned where you quoted me in post 73 - check out the attachment and please click on the yellow square with the white quote mark. It relates what I found. The report itself should be evidence enough though.

BB vs Buzz CalibrationSummaryDetailed_AVS_NoteAdded.pdf 450k .pdf file

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

In the Samsung in question, proper CMS, grayscale, and gamma controls for calibration are not in the service menu. There may be selections that have a broad impact on those things, but there's no 10 point white balance control, for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

No, here's the rest of the story. The E model mentioned where you quoted me in post 73 - check out the attachment and please click on the yellow square with the white quote mark. It relates what I found. The report itself should be evidence enough though.

BB vs Buzz CalibrationSummaryDetailed_AVS_NoteAdded.pdf 450k .pdf file

Okay, fine, but I was referring to the unreliability of using a shop cali before/after display as a means of determining calibrator skill. Every BBY I go into, many times the salesmen tell me it's nigh on impossible to keep the 'cali' one to it's actual calibrator settings, as folk screw with it. So in effect, the before after display is meant more as a general guideline than gospel.

As for you correcting the GS cali, the report does show marked improvement, really nice. So was that calibrator incompentent? Poorly trained? Didn't care? We don't know, we would have to ask him. Yes it appears the job previously done wasn't ideal. So certainly, one can discuss specific shortcomings of the *work* not the man (or woman). Doing so is unprofessional. (I am not saying though, buzzard, that *you* do, just saying that by sticking to constructive feedback of the work, is better for all smile.gif ]

However, like I've said in previous posts, the original cx could have escalated that to cust serv, and requested a recall, with a different senior staffer. Ultimately, even requesting a refund EVEN if the job was satisfactory. GS work is guaranteed for 1yr, no matter what they do. Did your cx try that route?

It sucks when this happens. I have met GS calibrators at all skill levels. I've never met one that had no idea what he was doing. Maybe less experienced, yes, but never incompetent. If any of them chat with me I am happy to talk to them.

Disclaimer: I do not work for GS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

In the Samsung in question, proper CMS, grayscale, and gamma controls for calibration are not in the service menu. There may be selections that have a broad impact on those things, but there's no 10 point white balance control, for example.
I stand corrected. smile.gif It seems on newer Sammys, 10 point control is present in the factory menus. Now, wether that control is always 'connected' to anything, well, i'm not gonna go there...that's a question for the Samsung rep! haha

Your terminology creates confusion. There is a User menu and there is a Service menu. When you say Factory menu to which do you refer? Not knowing the difference tells me you are more like a calibrator supervisor than a calibrator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Your terminology creates confusion. There is a User menu and there is a Service menu. When you say Factory menu to which do you refer? Not knowing the difference tells me you are more like a calibrator supervisor than a calibrator.

By factory menu on a sammy, I mean the blue ones that are accessible by the remote. Not sure if anyone else calls them 'factory' menus but that's what we call them in the UK. Common language separated by differences..... XD

I'm getting a kick out this kiltedscotsman guy. How long do you think it will be before he realizes how obvious it is that he's a best buy rep, and that he's interacting with some of the most reputable people in the calibration business?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

I'm getting a kick out this kiltedscotsman guy. How long do you think it will be before he realizes how obvious it is that he's a best buy rep, and that he's interacting with some of the most reputable people in the calibration business?

I am going to take the high road here and assume that was a joke. If not, are you insinuating that I am not reputable? Or that I do not take seriously the others on here or somehow take lightly their qualifications and or experience? If I misunderstood, then I apologise.

There's always someone who can do something better than oneself, and there's always someone who cannot. I always assume there's more people who can do something better than I can, than cannot.

The folks who know more than I, I can learn from, the folks that don't I can help up a rung. We are all travelling in the same direction. smile.gif

Again, for the record, I do not work for GS, but please perhaps take a look at my other posts on competition and professionalism. I don't make it my life's work to denigrate other people or companies in my field of work or community. (not saying *you* do, just a general point). I used to be the Microsoft rep for a while in Canada. Apple was of course our major competitor, as was the Linux folks and Sony (PS3) It was a condition of my employment that I was not to say anything negative about competitors. Maybe they do it differently in the States, but the reps from the other companies got on with me, and I them.

In fact, I am still good friends with some that I still see around. Theres enough computer buyers in the world to satisfy everyone. Tribalism is stupid, it's human beings behind these corporations after all.

Even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs had dinners together and would hang out in each others houses...! biggrin.gif

Mr Kilted ScotsMan,

Just a tip.

Most of the people taken seriously on this forum are known by both their first and last name and place of employment.

If you want people to take you seriously and not second guess your motivations, I suggest you take that approach and update your signature with full disclosure of who you are and what you represent.

Listen, there is a lot of negative feed back on this website of GS calibrations, because Best Buy has terrible policy
in place. No one is on here personally attacking their calibrators. The point that many of us have made, is that a lot of them seem to be somewhat uneducated, and are certainly not given enough time to do a good job. This is Best Buy's fault. There is nothing here to even defend other than Best Buy, and I personally find it a bit odd that someone would feel motivated to create an account solely to defend Best Buy calibrators as though we were berating those people personally, just as some sort of profesional courtesy.
Edited by ttnuagmada - 3/22/13 at 10:56pm

I was interested in the fact that all of kiltedscotsman's posts since he became a member of AVS related to BB calibrations. I've just added a link to this thread in a list of BB calibration links that I've recently started. The list is at the top of post number two in the "calibration report" thread that's linked in the signature area at the bottom of my post.

So far it seems that kiltedscotsman's only interest worth posting is the issue of BB calibrations.

EDIT: Now that I've read the entire thread, I see that it had been dormant for six months before kiltedscotsma reactivated it. You've got to give him credit for determination.
Edited by htwaits - 3/22/13 at 12:47pm

Oh. Well, in that case, I appear to have completely come at this on the wrong angle. This is kinda embarrassing. I was seriously under the impression that it was some kind of unprofessionalism, and, I am clearly mistaken here. I guess I added 2 and 2 and got 5, because I made assumptions about that it was just about people slagging each other off. I will delete all the offending posts, and fall on my sword, as they are obviously about a problem that only existed in my assumptions.

I was wrong. I should have looked into it more before commenting, and I apologise unreservedly to anyone if I made them feel like they were slandering other folks. So again, sorry, I heard a lot of good things about AVS forums and I just got the wrong impression, missed the mark, which was my fault for not doing enough homework.





edit: spelling
Edited by kiltedscotsman - 3/22/13 at 10:43pm

Now you'll have more time to enjoy all the topics that are available at AVS other than BB's management and training of their calibrators. Enjoy.

It seems to me and others on this forum that Best Buy is not accurate for most of the time yet people keep relying on their service and come back to this forum and bitch about the how poor the tv looks or green tinted. As it's been said many times over Best Buy stay away from their "calibration " service. The end period....

I just read some of your earliest post which indicated that you work for a company that provides installations and calibrations. The company that you work for is big enough to have a dispatcher, and based on the information in your posts, it's located in a big population center -- Toronto.

From the posts that I had initially read, I concluded that you were an independent calibrator with your own business. That's why I couldn't understand why you weren't using AVS to let people know about your services. The company you work for competes with BB for some of their business in the area of installations and calibrations. I get it now.

Why not check with your boss, and add the name of the company you work for to the signature area of your posts. That might clear up some confusion. Your particular professional affiliation is part of who you are at AVS. I've been retired nineteen years, so my professional affiliation doesn't count, and it's also off topic.

With reference to post 66 of Buzz's, I'd note 2 things.

1.The Panel itself, probably didn't have enough hours to settle. I have tested LCD's for initial decay and found evidence they also need 100~200 hours settling time.
2.The C5 used by the BB calibrator may actually require recalibration. I own one and could not use it for work until it was serviced and recalibrated for a second time at Spectracal. Noting my C5 returned RED/BLUE push when new, then Green push on first attempted C5 calibration, now after alignment with a CS2000 it returns reasonable results with reference to my i1pro and Jeti1211
It can still be fooled by the display, as a contact meter it can always be fooled by non iluminated screen area.