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New JVC DLA-X75R/DLA-RS56 $7,999 projector with 3D RF glasses and E-shift CEDIA 2012 - Page 12

post #331 of 444
I'm with you on this, Film (if I remember correctly) engages the color filter into the light path which cuts down light output and contrast pretty significantly. I use Standard personally. It can calibrate well with the PJ's adjustments but can be nearly perfect with my Lumagen doing the CMS work.
post #332 of 444
Thanks guys - I'll have to double check what I use. It's either Standard or Film. If it's film - i'll change it!

Kal
post #333 of 444
Kal,

If any of the modes you select engage the filter (very audible when it does this) than you should probably avoid that mode. It cuts down brightness significantly with no obvious benefit. I would stick with Standard and calibrate from there. The X75 is very simple to calibrate with the right settings, if setup correctly it is only a few tweaks here and there. Good luck!
post #334 of 444
Ok - my mistake. I do indeed use PIcture mode "User 1" with Color Profile "Standard". All is good. I generally use whatever setting allows me to unlock everything and customize to get to standards (6500K, 2.22 gamma, Rec709, etc.). I dn't use any of the overriding 'preset' modes that engage the filter (the loud click) as it generally locks you out of certain settings, doing what it thinks is best (never is).

It's the naming that manufacturers use that can sometimes be confusing. wink.gif

Kal
post #335 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Ok - my mistake. I do indeed use PIcture mode "User 1" with Color Profile "Standard". All is good. I generally use whatever setting allows me to unlock everything and customize to get to standards (6500K, 2.22 gamma, Rec709, etc.). I dn't use any of the overriding 'preset' modes that engage the filter (the loud click) as it generally locks you out of certain settings, doing what it thinks is best (never is).

It's the naming that manufacturers use that can sometimes be confusing. wink.gif

Kal

Okay..that makes more sense. If you had of used one of the filter colourspaces, you would have been able to get outside the Rec.709 triangle...but you would have done so at the expense of light output and probably found the tracking was messed up. Interestingly though, the filter seems to lose less light in the latest models. In the X7 for example, as soon as you went to Film or Cinema preset, the light loss was so severe that the bulb went into high power. On the latest models, it doesn't do that anymore as it doesn't seem to be so severe.
post #336 of 444
What kind of uniformity are people seeing with this projector? I haven't seen any complaints, but I just got an RS-66, and it has a strong skew towards green in the upper left portion of the screen. This is enough to be visible in real world content. My RS-20 had quite good uniformity.

Here's what I measured:
Lower right:
x 0.313
y 0.331

Center (reference):
x 0.312
y 0.330

Upper left:
x 0.308
y 0.336

Center and lower right are good. Upper left, not so good. Much worse than I would have expected for a top of the line projector.

I used the S&M 2.0 100% uniformity pattern, and an i1 3 Pro, and measured directly from the lens to make sure the screen wasn't the issue.
post #337 of 444
While I didn't measure various portions of the screen with my Display 3 PRO, I have no uniformity problems with my RS56 that are visible to the naked eye, and I most certainly did put up all primary & secondary full screen fields to look. Doesn't sound right to me.

Kal
post #338 of 444
Well, my wife could see it in some clouds in color content ("why are the clouds green?"), and it's very visible in black and white content. Hopefully JVC will do the right thing and just replace this PJ. There was also other weirdness about it -- on the bottom, near where the power plug is, the case appears to have some damage like it was pried almost? The last thing is extremely minor, but it immediately makes me wonder whether this particular PJ has had an unusual history?

post #339 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Well, my wife could see it in some clouds in color content ("why are the clouds green?"), and it's very visible in black and white content. Hopefully JVC will do the right thing and just replace this PJ. There was also other weirdness about it -- on the bottom, near where the power plug is, the case appears to have some damage like it was pried almost? The last thing is extremely minor, but it immediately makes me wonder whether this particular PJ has had an unusual history?


edit: I should also add that, other than this issue, post calibration this projector throws a really detailed and natural image.
post #340 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

edit: I should also add that, other than this issue, post calibration this projector throws a really detailed and natural image.

The unfinished bit of plastic that you show in your photo is normal (albeit rather odd). I had noticed the same on mine. I am extremely sensitive to uniformity errors and where others can't see the difference between one part of the screen and another, I can. So I know how you feel. Perfect uniformity is practically impossible. On any of my JVC projectors, if you put a white or grey field you can always see that one side or corner is a bit pinky or greenish. But apart from one of my projectors, I don't normally notice it when watching movies. Interestingly, the nearest it is to calibrated perfectly (i.e. D65), the more I seem to notice the slight variations across a white frame. In your particular case it sounds like the greenish tint is strong enough for your wife to call out about it. That seems odd to me and may mean the variance is too great. Are you able to get a picture of a white frame that shows this and post it here?
post #341 of 444
Sage, A couple of thoughts...

Long shot but worth looking into....there are two controls that could affect uniformity.....Screen Adjust and (possibly) Environment Setting. You may wish to toy with these.....

Also how does convergence look? Does it go whacko where the non uniformity exists?

Have you discussed this with your dealer? Is he not open to an exchange?
post #342 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Well, my wife could see it in some clouds in color content ("why are the clouds green?"), and it's very visible in black and white content. Hopefully JVC will do the right thing and just replace this PJ. There was also other weirdness about it -- on the bottom, near where the power plug is, the case appears to have some damage like it was pried almost? The last thing is extremely minor, but it immediately makes me wonder whether this particular PJ has had an unusual history?


I have exactly the same problem on my projector, found it really interesting that a new projector would have a pry mark on the case
post #343 of 444
Disuniformity appears to be improving with time on the bulb. I'm going to remeasure on Tuesday or Wednesday.
post #344 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgodden View Post

I have exactly the same problem on my projector, found it really interesting that a new projector would have a pry mark on the case

Well if other people have the same on their PJ, I'm not going to worry about it then. Some sort of odd manufacturing step.
post #345 of 444
I spent some time on calibration of the RS-66, and was able to get very accurate Greyscale and Chroma. The trick is making use of the Bias and Offset controls for gross changes, and then the Gamma controls individual color adjustments for fine tuning. I'm going to spent more time on this once the bulb hits 100 hours or so.

I didn't spend a ton of time on Gamma tracking, but was able to get it pretty close to 2.25, which works well in my black-velvet bat cave (with bats!).


Greyscale:


Chroma:


I'm going to recheck the mis-uniformity that I got measured previously.
post #346 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

I spent some time on calibration of the RS-66, and was able to get very accurate Greyscale and Chroma. The trick is making use of the Bias and Offset controls for gross changes, and then the Gamma controls individual color adjustments for fine tuning. I'm going to spent more time on this once the bulb hits 100 hours or so.

I didn't spend a ton of time on Gamma tracking, but was able to get it pretty close to 2.25, which works well in my black-velvet bat cave (with bats!).


Greyscale:


Chroma:


I'm going to recheck the mis-uniformity that I got measured previously.

That's the first chromaticity graph I have seen where someone got green and cyan right into its slot. Every other chart I have seen shows green under-saturated which means cyan is too. On mine the effect is very slight (within 1dE) so I am not too bothered about it. I assume you were using the Standard colour profile for this? What meter were you using?
post #347 of 444
Yes - that surprised me as well. Since you're using ChromaPure, can you measure the primaries at 25, 50, and 75% stimulus too? Mine track pretty well even though my cyan and green as slightly off (just like JonStatt). I'd be curious to see what happens inside the gamut for you too since your outside is slightly different.

Kal
post #348 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

That's the first chromaticity graph I have seen where someone got green and cyan right into its slot. Every other chart I have seen shows green under-saturated which means cyan is too. On mine the effect is very slight (within 1dE) so I am not too bothered about it. I assume you were using the Standard colour profile for this? What meter were you using?

The i1 3 Pro. Standard profile, don't need no stinking filters in the color path.

Biggest PITA is that it took me awhile to figure out that going to grayscale controls to mod them turned them off (thus I kept measuring the values without user input) unless you adjust an offset value. I lost some hair over that.
post #349 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Yes - that surprised me as well. Since you're using ChromaPure, can you measure the primaries at 25, 50, and 75% stimulus too? Mine track pretty well even though my cyan and green as slightly off (just like JonStatt). I'd be curious to see what happens inside the gamut for you too since your outside is slightly different.

Kal

I haven't measured with reduced saturation yet, but definitely need to.

As a note, due to my lack of adult supervision (wifes at work) and some time off I was able get a more accurate greyscale then what I posted, and then bring the gamut dE to under .5 for all the colors. IIRC, green is at .2 dE. Misuniformity has decreased, whether due to time on the bulb, magic gnomes polishing the optical block or bringing down green in the greyscale calibration. The uniformty is visible still in some content, but it's not even close to as bad as it was -it's now about 3 dE off of grey. Was around 7.
post #350 of 444
Firmware version question -- what version of f/w do people have? I have 29.001. I am having a problem with greyscale offset values being applied erratically. They are being saved, but not applied after boot or changing a color temperature preset, unless I then go into the adjustment screen and change an offset value.
post #351 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Firmware version question -- what version of f/w do people have? I have 29.001. I am having a problem with greyscale offset values being applied erratically. They are being saved, but not applied after boot or changing a color temperature preset, unless I then go into the adjustment screen and change an offset value.

Since there have not been any updates, everybody has the same.
Reply
Reply
post #352 of 444
Well, there is a pretty serious issue here. It's easy to reproduce without using a colorimeter (if you don't have one handy). It took me awhile to figure out why my low end greyscale wasn't persistent between boots, since the values were persistent, but the measurements were not.

I'm using Natural, Standard and 6500k as the starting place for my custom Greyscale settings

1. Set your Color Temp to Custom 1.

2. Select the Custom 1 setting to enter the Greyscale fine tuning section. Adjust the Red offset of Custom 1 to full -50.

3. Display a 30% window. It will be super minus red obviously.

4. Set your greyscale to Custom 2.

5. Set it back to Custom 1. Image is no longer minus red.

6. Re-enter the Greyscale fine tuning menu. Select the Red Offset control. Bump it one notch from -50 to -49.

The image will suddenly become minus Red again. Some things to note: 1) You can't fix this in the service menu since only Gain not Offset is available, 2) The VALUES are saved between boots, but they are not APPLIED unless you go back into the fine tuning menu and twiddle one of the Offset control back and forth.

What does this mean? It means that you will have a really hard time getting an accurate low end greyscale. I might be missing something obvious, but my RS-20 didn't have this bug. Anyone have a good work around or am I missing something obvious?
post #353 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Well, there is a pretty serious issue here. It's easy to reproduce without using a colorimeter (if you don't have one handy). It took me awhile to figure out why my low end greyscale wasn't persistent between boots, since the values were persistent, but the measurements were not.

I'm using Natural, Standard and 6500k as the starting place for my custom Greyscale settings

1. Set your Color Temp to Custom 1.

2. Select the Custom 1 setting to enter the Greyscale fine tuning section. Adjust the Red offset of Custom 1 to full -50.

3. Display a 30% window. It will be super minus red obviously.

4. Set your greyscale to Custom 2.

5. Set it back to Custom 1. Image is no longer minus red.

6. Re-enter the Greyscale fine tuning menu. Select the Red Offset control. Bump it one notch from -50 to -49.

The image will suddenly become minus Red again. Some things to note: 1) You can't fix this in the service menu since only Gain not Offset is available, 2) The VALUES are saved between boots, but they are not APPLIED unless you go back into the fine tuning menu and twiddle one of the Offset control back and forth.

What does this mean? It means that you will have a really hard time getting an accurate low end greyscale. I might be missing something obvious, but my RS-20 didn't have this bug. Anyone have a good work around or am I missing something obvious?

I can't replicate this. And I did try several times. If I change Red offset to -50 in custom 1, then go custom 2 and back to custom 1, the changes are immediately loaded. I also tried switching off and on. And I also tried switching between presets and back. Each time, it never failed to load the offset changes. Now I cannot figure out why your projector is behaving differently. I would suggest a factory reset (in the service menu), but I don't want you to lose all your hard work in fiddling with the gamma R,G,B values which I know are time consuming.

By the way, are you aware of a brand new feature in this years models that allows you to actually re-program FULLY the built-in colour temperature presets? Change the gains in the service menu and then change the offsets in the normal menu where you change custom 1 etc but leave the menu option to adjust "Preset" instead of "Custom1-3" (hopefully this will make sense when you see it). Although the gains are greyed out for the built-in presets, the offsets are not. This means you can reprogram 6500K which snaps all other presets using that default back into place as well. I don't know if it affects the THX preset as I didn't try that.
post #354 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I can't replicate this. And I did try several times. If I change Red offset to -50 in custom 1, then go custom 2 and back to custom 1, the changes are immediately loaded. I also tried switching off and on. And I also tried switching between presets and back. Each time, it never failed to load the offset changes. Now I cannot figure out why your projector is behaving differently. I would suggest a factory reset (in the service menu), but I don't want you to lose all your hard work in fiddling with the gamma R,G,B values which I know are time consuming.

By the way, are you aware of a brand new feature in this years models that allows you to actually re-program FULLY the built-in colour temperature presets? Change the gains in the service menu and then change the offsets in the normal menu where you change custom 1 etc but leave the menu option to adjust "Preset" instead of "Custom1-3" (hopefully this will make sense when you see it). Although the gains are greyed out for the built-in presets, the offsets are not. This means you can reprogram 6500K which snaps all other presets using that default back into place as well. I don't know if it affects the THX preset as I didn't try that.

Thanks Jon -- it sounds like there's only one firmware version available, but can you confirm that you have v. 29.001?

I will try fully adjust the 6500k preset color temperature today, to see if I can use that as a work around. Factory reset is an option too, I'd like to get to the bottom of this.

EDIT: nope, the color temperature presets show the exact same behavior with regards to not applying the Offset values after switching or booting, unless I first twiddle an offset value.
Edited by sage - 6/21/13 at 9:24am
post #355 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Thanks Jon -- it sounds like there's only one firmware version available, but can you confirm that you have v. 29.001?

I will try fully adjust the 6500k preset color temperature today, to see if I can use that as a work around. Factory reset is an option too, I'd like to get to the bottom of this.

EDIT: nope, the color temperature presets show the exact same behavior with regards to not applying the Offset values after switching or booting, unless I first twiddle an offset value.

That is just the main system firmware. There are a whole bunch of other firmware revisions including the CMS one. They may all be lockstepped together as a single release though. Mine is switched off at the moment, but if you can, go into the service menu, and display the info page where it lists all the firmware revisions. Maybe take a snapshot of it with a camera and post it here. I will then compare. I have a feeling one of the firmwares was dated 2013 (the version number has a date embedded) but I may be recalling wrongly. If I was right though, then it would indicate they are not all the same depending on the manufacturing date but let's make sure on this point before we jump the gun. I can't work out why yours is behaving differently....it really is peculiar.

I have only noticed one bug with the X75/X95 firmware so far and that is specific to 3D Gamma. If you press the 3D preset, and change the gamma from G to E while it is displaying a 2D image, then display a 3D image, the gamma reverts back to G again. If you change it while it is in 3D mode, then it changes correctly. That is an easy one to work around, but confused me for a while.
post #356 of 444
So, here it is with measurements:

1. 6500k with Offsets all set to 0, 30 IRE:
.314, .329

2. 6500k with Offset Red set to -30.
.271, .325

3. Now, I set Color Temp to 7000k, and immediately back to 6500k and measure:
.301, .330

4. Now, go back into Color Temp settings and change the -30 Red Offset to -29, and measure:
.274, .329

5. Power cycle projector, let projector warm for 10 minutes, and measure:
.300, .330

6. And, pop back to the color temp menu, and twiddle red off set back and then forth (so it ends up at the same place):
.272, .329

What's interesting, is that it doesn't appear that the Offset value is being ignored completely, just partially applied. Here's a last measurement, with the Offset Red set back to 0:
.314, .329
So it appears that SOME of the red Offset is being applied -- e.g. this measurement isn't the same as 5. above.
post #357 of 444
post #358 of 444
Just realized I am NOT on 29.001 . I am on 29.004

Some of the firmware numbers are different on the service menu too, including the Sub firmware which if I recall handles things like the menu processing

post #359 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

So, here it is with measurements:

1. 6500k with Offsets all set to 0, 30 IRE:
.314, .329

2. 6500k with Offset Red set to -30.
.271, .325

3. Now, I set Color Temp to 7000k, and immediately back to 6500k and measure:
.301, .330

4. Now, go back into Color Temp settings and change the -30 Red Offset to -29, and measure:
.274, .329

5. Power cycle projector, let projector warm for 10 minutes, and measure:
.300, .330

6. And, pop back to the color temp menu, and twiddle red off set back and then forth (so it ends up at the same place):
.272, .329

What's interesting, is that it doesn't appear that the Offset value is being ignored completely, just partially applied. Here's a last measurement, with the Offset Red set back to 0:
.314, .329
So it appears that SOME of the red Offset is being applied -- e.g. this measurement isn't the same as 5. above.


That really is very peculiar. I haven't got my meter to hand right now to validate this. Unfortunately I cannot see it with the naked eye as I flick back and forth, but that doesn't mean that the value is being maintained correctly!

I did not install any firmware update by the way..it came like that.
post #360 of 444
There is a work around here since the offset values aren't completely ignored. Basically, every time you make an Offset adjustment, you exit the Color temp fine controls, change the main Color Temp setting from Custom 1 (or whatever you are using) to Custom 2, then back, then measure.

I'm power cycling the projector right now to test the greyscale, as I just tried using the technique above.
Edited by sage - 6/21/13 at 11:20am
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