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Amplifier for Revel Salon2 for 10K or less. - Page 5

post #121 of 460
If your looking at Class D amps check out the Anthem M-1 Monoblocks. 2000wpc into 4 ohms only about 18" high and 20 lbs. Also dead quiet as the don't require a fan to stay cool.smile.gif
post #122 of 460
It hasn't been mentioned here, but the Sunfire TGA-7401 is a class A/B that does 400wpc@8 and doubles down into 4ohm. They are incredibly musical with gobs of power. They do a spectacular job in both two channel and HT. For your budget you could get two of them and still have 4k left in your pocket. I would easily put them up against any amp listed thus far.
Edited by nooshinjohn - 8/17/12 at 1:43pm
post #123 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by adupree View Post

You can't go wrong with a Crown, Crest, QSC, or Lab Gruppen. All of those companies make some great stuff.

I had a chance to play around with the Lab and their digital look ahead tracking. Wholly smokes:eek: That is an awesome piece of code. That is something I haven't seen in any boutique amp at any cost.

Class I from Crown. No signal crossover distortion (just like Class A) but in a Kilowatt package. Great PUSH / PUSH design.
post #124 of 460
Thread Starter 
Question for those who are familiar with Crown amps , There are so many different classes , and some of those products have similar specs, how do you choose one over another ?
DSi 4000 650wpc 8ohm
CDI 4000 650wpc 8ohm
Xls 2500 440wpc 8ohm
Xti 4002 650wpc 8ohm
post #125 of 460
Thread Starter 
Question for those who are familiar with Lab Gruppen, Why would I choose one of these models over the other one:
FP 6000Q 625wpc 8ohm
C 28:4 700wpc 8ohm
E 12:2 600wpc 8ohm
post #126 of 460
Now I will recommend what you want to hear.

Get a plinius or sim audio! If you really want to save a little get the ATI. Getting gobs of power does not matter if your speakers can't handle it anyways.
post #127 of 460
Since you have the resources why don't you buy a few amps, audition them extensively for a few days, even do A/B comparisons, then keep the one you want and send the others back...

Every piece of equipment you own should please YOU... inuke vs. McIntosh, listen to them both in your environment under the same conditions. You be the judge and let us know if you can tell a difference. Wish I would have did that with my projector.

Sorry if this has been suggested, I'm still catching up on this thread.
post #128 of 460
Another option is to buy pre-owned Bryston. 7BSST or 7BSST2 monoblocks or 14BSST or SST2. The Bryston 20 year warranty on analog is the real deal and customer service is excellent. So if the amps were originally purchased through a Bryston dealer network, then there is essentially no risk with used Bryston. The difference between the SST and SST2 series is fairly small.

Steve
post #129 of 460
That's the allure of McIntosh, Mark Levinson, and many others, is that if they ever break there is a network of shops around the country that restore them to factory original output (they test them before the then them out...www.pyramid-audio.com, mcintoshaudio.com, etc) so you could essentially have this amp for the rest of your life for the fairly reasonable price of $3-4000. The reality for me is that I can't see keeping an amp long enough to give it to my kids...I like to try new stuff every now and then. If you're wiling to 'marry' an amp, this is the way to go.

Also, if you read the audioholics blind tests they compare difference speakers, amps, etc. that are nearly identical except for brand. They had to do it this way to decrease variables (increasing accuracy of the results). Notice they didn't compare any budget bookshef speakers with any ribbon, dual-radiating, powered-sub enclosed line source floorstanders because they KNEW that these would never sould the same. This analogy confers to amp testing...no one would ever compare a $99 Sony receiver, with a class D 5 X200, with a Class-H 5X 400 with a Class A 1000W monoblock as there is just no chance that almost anyone wouldn't hear a difference. This testing is only valid for components that are all the same ouput, amp topology, etc. No need to flame me, its just my opinion.
post #130 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

That's the allure of McIntosh, Mark Levinson, and many others, is that if they ever break there is a network of shops around the country that restore them to factory original output (they test them before the then them out...www.pyramid-audio.com, mcintoshaudio.com, etc) so you could essentially have this amp for the rest of your life for the fairly reasonable price of $3-4000. The reality for me is that I can't see keeping an amp long enough to give it to my kids...I like to try new stuff every now and then. If you're wiling to 'marry' an amp, this is the way to go.
Also, if you read the audioholics blind tests they compare difference speakers, amps, etc. that are nearly identical except for brand. They had to do it this way to decrease variables (increasing accuracy of the results). Notice they didn't compare any budget bookshef speakers with any ribbon, dual-radiating, powered-sub enclosed line source floorstanders because they KNEW that these would never sould the same. This analogy confers to amp testing...no one would ever compare a $99 Sony receiver, with a class D 5 X200, with a Class-H 5X 400 with a Class A 1000W monoblock as there is just no chance that almost anyone wouldn't hear a difference. This testing is only valid for components that are all the same ouput, amp topology, etc. No need to flame me, its just my opinion.

No flaming as double blind amplifier tests have shown time and again, golden ears are in ones head as ten year old two hundred dollar SS Amps, hooked up with coiled zip cord, beyond statistical chance, can't be differentiated between the sound quality of much more expensive SS Amps.
post #131 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No flaming as double blind amplifier tests have shown time and again, golden ears are in ones head as ten year old two hundred dollar SS Amps, hooked up with coiled zip cord, beyond statistical chance, can't be differentiated between the sound quality of much more expensive SS Amps.
But that doesn't mean that the $200 amp is capable of driving the same speakers as the pricier one. For that matter, the pricier one might also be inadequate, no?
post #132 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

But that doesn't mean that the $200 amp is capable of driving the same speakers as the pricier one. For that matter, the pricier one might also be inadequate, no?

Absolutely as it depends on if the music is background or if one is trying to drive the room SPL to THX reference levels. The above comment you asked about works off the principal of properly working amplifiers which includes, amplifiers properly matching speaker requirements for impedance and speaker output; clipping vs compression.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/18/12 at 9:41am
post #133 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Question for those who are familiar with Crown amps , There are so many different classes , and some of those products have similar specs, how do you choose one over another ?
DSi 4000 650wpc 8ohm
CDI 4000 650wpc 8ohm
Xls 2500 440wpc 8ohm
Xti 4002 650wpc 8ohm

The XLS is Crowns X-Over only amp. Amps are getting more and more intelligence as the years go on. The XLS is the 'old school' designs and also keep the cost down. Totally silent

The XTi move up the line in installed sound and FOH (Front of House) setups. It adds Digital Signal Processing additionally to the Crossover function.

The DSi is for larger FOH applications. They can HiQnet daisy chain and feature Phoenix connectors instead of traditional XLR or 1/4". These are used in a lot of theater and large live sound venues.

The CDi is for 70v distributed systems and the like.

You only need the XLS series. Given the spec on the Revels the XLS 2000 DriveCore would have more than enough.
post #134 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

You only need the XLS series. Given the spec on the Revels the XLS 2000 DriveCore would have more than enough.

Oh, come on. The XLS 2500 is only $50 more than the XLS2000. Got to go for the 2500. biggrin.gif

440wpc 8ohm/ 775wpc 4ohm. Get 3 XLS2500 (775wpc x 6ch) and call it a day. Oh, better get a Smart-Strip with auto off since these pro amps don't have 12v trigger.
post #135 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Oh, come on. The XLS 2500 is only $50 more than the XLS2000. Got to go for the 2500. biggrin.gif
440wpc 8ohm/ 775wpc 4ohm. Get 3 XLS2500 (775wpc x 6ch) and call it a day. Oh, better get a Smart-Strip with auto off since these pro amps don't have 12v trigger.

Eh, either will be more than adequate. Take the $150 and get a few bottles of nice wine. Heck one of my fave's is Decoy at $25/bottle. That is a lot of wine and good music smile.gif Think how much wine that is if it's not a $10K amp biggrin.gif

If he really wanted to let the beast off the chain he would get something out of Crowns MacroTech line up biggrin.gif (totally overkill however).
post #136 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Oh, come on. The XLS 2500 is only $50 more than the XLS2000. Got to go for the 2500. biggrin.gif
440wpc 8ohm/ 775wpc 4ohm. Get 3 XLS2500 (775wpc x 6ch) and call it a day. Oh, better get a Smart-Strip with auto off since these pro amps don't have 12v trigger.

My concern in the number of watts being put on home theater electric outlets as most home outlets use15A outlet plugs on a fifteen or twenty Amp breaker; total 1800w - 2400w.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/18/12 at 8:40pm
post #137 of 460
Thread Starter 
I plan to use my current Denon 4311 as my preamp till I upgrade, 4311 has no XLR outputs, How do I use it with an amp that has only XLR inputs ?
post #138 of 460
Thread Starter 
If Class D amps are the way to go ( Based on your overwhelming recommendation of Crown and Lab Gruppen amps) , What do you guys think about Sunfire TGA-7401 Its a 7 channel class D amp, 400wpc @ 8ohm and 800wpc @4ohm.
for about 3k. It costs about double of 3 XLS2500s but you only have one amp to worry about.

Edit: I was wrong, Sunfire is a Class AB amp not D.
Edited by babak147 - 8/19/12 at 12:09am
post #139 of 460
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

The XLS is Crowns X-Over only amp. Amps are getting more and more intelligence as the years go on. The XLS is the 'old school' designs and also keep the cost down. Totally silent
The XTi move up the line in installed sound and FOH (Front of House) setups. It adds Digital Signal Processing additionally to the Crossover function.
The DSi is for larger FOH applications. They can HiQnet daisy chain and feature Phoenix connectors instead of traditional XLR or 1/4". These are used in a lot of theater and large live sound venues.
The CDi is for 70v distributed systems and the like.
You only need the XLS series. Given the spec on the Revels the XLS 2000 DriveCore would have more than enough.
Thank you for your info.
post #140 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Thank you for your info.

I've heard alot of arguments over the years. I've never once heard anyone who supports $10,000 amps actually give any scientific evidence for why more expensive amplifiers sound better. They always change the subject and give a subjective response not definitive or scientific claims that aren't true. I've heard alot of people who are familiar with the science behind audio discuss these concepts and never once have I heard someone who was on the A honor roll in college or high school give a response coming from someone who was on the A honor roll every quarter and had an academic scholarship to college. These people who enjoy these amplifiers are C+ students.

It's generally accepted that companies like Paraound and Rotel by the more reasonable audio groups will not be bested by anything and have good build quality. They will satisfy people who are paranoid about their components while even sub $1,000 will work fine.

A Rotel RB-1572 at $1,300 will be way more than fine.

http://www.listenup.com/Rotel+RB-1572-p-RB1572-p-.html

Peak SPL of 300 watts RMS on a Salon2 sensitivity of 86.4 SPL will produce 104.5 dB of SPL.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Noise chart:

http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/Noise/

http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/decibel-exposure-time-guidelines/

"Sounds that are louder than 85 dB can cause permanent hearing loss."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure

Jack hammer at 1 meter is approximately 100 dB

100 dB = hand drill, pneumatic drill

103 decibels have a permissible exposure time of 7.5 minutes before you start to risk hearing loss.

It's also accepted for the sticklers that 2 channel will be completely fine over mono amplifiers even for the "golden ears".
Edited by ComputerTech0903 - 8/18/12 at 10:58pm
post #141 of 460
According to it's factory rap sheet, the Sunfire is a class A/B design. I will call Bob tommorow and confirm this for you. I would take one of these all day long and twice on Sunday. I own one, so give me a call if you like. I pm'd my number to you yesterday.

http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=3

You can configure the amp in a number of different ways to get the best out of it, including tying channels together and using both current and voltage taps from the same channel to bi-wire. One tap reflects a more tubish sound, the other conventional solid state. Of all the amps discussed here, at under three grand for the level of performance it delivers, It is a no brainer IMHO. They can run a 4 ohm load all day and stay stone cold to the touch as well. Simply a superb amp all the way around.
Edited by nooshinjohn - 8/18/12 at 11:59pm
post #142 of 460
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

How large is your room?
22X27 ft
post #143 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My concern in the number of watts being put on home theater electric outlets as most home outlets use15A outlet plugs on a fifteen or twenty Amp breaker; total 1800w - 2400w.
-
You won't see a 15A plug on a 20A circuit. It's illegal by NEC code. But you're right that if you're going to pump that much juice that you should have the amps on their own circuit.

Having said that, I've yet to have any problems with any setup I've ever had. I have a Denon 3803 and a Behringer EP4000 plus all of the rest of the components on a single 15A circuit and I have had it pretty dang loud and never a tripped breaker.
post #144 of 460
^^^

sure you will... 15A outlets are perfectly acceptable under code on a 20A circuit as long as there is more than one outlet (a "nornal" duplex outlet couts as 2, fwiw)...

there are several areas in a house that are required to have 20A circuits (bathrooms, for example)... they are not required to have 20A outlets...

a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, otoh, would be a BIG no-no...

i agree he'll be fine in terms of available juice though... smile.gif
post #145 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

If Class D amps are the way to go ( Based on your overwhelming recommendation of Crown and Lab Gruppen amps) , What do you guys think about Sunfire TGA-7401 Its a 7 channel class D amp, 400wpc @ 8ohm and 800wpc @4ohm.
for about 3k. It costs about double of 3 XLS2500s but you only have one amp to worry about.

I think it's a solid amp that many people are happy with. In the grand scheme of things stretching another $1500 is more than reasonable.
post #146 of 460
I note you very carefully keep repeating "SS amps", which is interesting, this seems to be a debate on semantics which are alway tricky. These "blind testers" must be people who think harmonicas sound eerily similar to bassoons (making them also deaf testers)...I don't claim to have golden ears but I can, as a fact, tell the difference between my dads HTiB amp ($200), my Anthem receiver, my Onix SP3 tube amp and my Creek Evolution 2...cut the sub, volume match, the whole deal...there is a relatively small but noticeable difference in each. You may call it "the ability to drive the specific loudspeaker" if that's what helps you sleep, but its there. I assure you the 3 people that finally divulged this inconvenient truth have not actually ousted anyone, the thousands of reviewers or the hundreds of thousands of engineers, factory workers, etc. that work in the audio industry. My wife could give rats rear-end about this stuff and even she notices when I secretly change an amplifier, I've done it twice this month just for grins. So, you believe your blind testing article and I'll believe my blind testing experience...as long as everybody's having fun with the hobby. (I would like to note for clarification that while I appreciate/admire McIntosh, Mark Levinson, etc. I neither have the funding nor would I spend it if I had it for the newest/best units costing $5K and up; I like the 10 yr old stuff and the 40 yr. old stuff ($1-3K), most of which competes well on a cost:performance ratio of the new stuff)

I just noticed I forgot to recommend an amp for the OP. On the low end of the price scale I'd look at Emotivas new 400W X 5 channel or monoblocks. I also agree with the poster who said borrow or buy a few and set them up on a speaker switcher (setup in reverse its an amp switcher) and A-B them all and either sell/return the rest. Some will have the ability to drive your speakers to a different subjective degree. Enjoy, you lucky thang...
Edited by pottscb - 8/19/12 at 6:25am
post #147 of 460
^^^

you didn't do a blind test, fwiw...
post #148 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

According to it's factory rap sheet, the Sunfire is a class A/B design. I will call Bob tommorow and confirm this for you. I would take one of these all day long and twice on Sunday. I own one, so give me a call if you like. I pm'd my number to you yesterday.
http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=3

It could be A/B output section while the power section could be SMPS (thus reducing the weight). If it really matters to the OP a call to Sunfire could be in order. All I know is 7 channels at 46 lbs is awesome in a single chassis.
post #149 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

.there is a relatively small but noticeable difference in each.

It's a tail wag the dog difference that I would council most people against where it means that you could go from 10K of speaker to say 18K of speaker given an overall budget.

Even a $7500 Classe on weekend loan from my local dealer once volume matched just wasn't a convincing argument for me.
post #150 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
sure you will... 15A outlets are perfectly acceptable under code on a 20A circuit as long as there is more than one outlet (a "nornal" duplex outlet couts as 2, fwiw)...
there are several areas in a house that are required to have 20A circuits (bathrooms, for example)... they are not required to have 20A outlets...
a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, otoh, would be a BIG no-no...
i agree he'll be fine in terms of available juice though... smile.gif

Which is what I posted in my comment as I differentiated between 15A outlets vs 20A circuit breakers so I don't understand. It's the total watts being put on a circuit and the more demand, the more heat generated in the walls which do cause house fires. Especially if standard duplex outlets are used. As I have work done on the house I have any electric outlets upgraded to "hospital" grade, 20A outlets so the chance of there being a problem are minimized. It's not nice to understate valid concerns and warnings. The electric code has not caught up with the demands of today's home entertainment center. I don't agree about being fine as I see valid concerns regarding the addition of outboard Amps being dismissed out of hand.

If one is going add a high wattage amplifier to the same circuit the rest of the home entertainment system is connected to, if one does not wish to chance burning the house down unnecessarily, thoughts should turn to adding separate circuits for safety's sake. Money well spent.

My concern, many people don't seem to understand that today's house wiring is not up to standards necessary to be able to handle the amperage requirements of today's home entertainment centers. Where the total wattage of television, Blue-ray player, powered subwoofer and the addition of a high amperage home theater amplifier, can easily reach/exceed a standard homes wiring ability. This point is compounded if the house wiring is older and all circuits are on five, ten and fifteen amp services. When one reads of the possibility of home wiring exceeding capacity, comments of concern/warning should "RIGHTFULLY" be posted as that's the "RIGHT" thing to do. Should someone add additional lighting or heaters to the circuit, easily, the capacity of the circuit will be exceeded. Understating concerns is not the right thing to do as that's how houses are burned down.

"Warning, Warning, Warning Will Robinson!"

When one adds high amperage outboard amplifiers that alone can exceed 15A or the capacity of a cheapie $0.99 duplex outlets, comments about the need to add independent circuits to handle home theater requirements for fire safety purposes, "NEED" to be posted. Comments about upgrading duplex outlets to "hospital" grade duplex outlets, need to be posted. If one wants to chance burning their house down, that's on them but it's "WRONG," when one knows better, not to post "REASONABLE" concerns.

Why anyone would poo-poo "VALID" warnings is beyond this old man's comprehension.

mad.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/19/12 at 6:42am
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