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Amplifier for Revel Salon2 for 10K or less. - Page 6

post #151 of 460
^^^

one should educate one's self better.... if one was better educated on the subject at hand, one would understand why his "valid" concerns aren't valid...

other than that, i have no comment...
post #152 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Which is what I posted in my comment as I differentiated between 15A outlets vs 20A circuit breakers so I don't understand. It's the total watts being put on a circuit and the more demand, the more heat generated in the walls which do cause house fires. Especially if standard duplex outlets are used. As I have work done on the house I have any electric outlets upgraded to "hospital" grade, 20A outlets so the chance of their being a problem are minimized. It's not nice to understate valid concerns and warnings. The electric code has not caught up with the demands of today's home entertainment center. I don't agree about being fine as I see valid concerns regarding the addition of outboard Amps being dismissed out of hand.
If one is going add a high wattage amplifier to the same circuits the rest of the home entertainment system is connected to, if one does not wish to chance burning the house down unnecessarily, thoughts should turn to adding separate circuits for safety's sake.
My concern is, many people don't seem to understand that today's house wiring is not up to standards necessary to be able to handle the amperage requirements of today's home entertainment centers. Where the total wattage of television, Blue-ray player, powered subwoofer and the addition of a high amperage home theater amplifier, one can easily reach/exceed a standard homes wiring ability. This point is compounded if the house wiring is older and all circuits are on five, ten and fifteen amp services. When one reads of the possibility of home wiring exceeding capacity, comments of concern/warning should "RIGHTFULLY" be posted as that's the "RIGHT" thing to do. Should someone add additional lighting or heaters to the circuit, easily, the capacity of the circuit will be exceeded. Understating concerns is not the right thing to do as that's how houses are burned down.
"Warning, Warning, Warning Will Robinson!"
When one adds high amperage outboard amplifiers that alone can exceed 15A or the capacity of a cheapie $0.99 duplex outlets, comments about the need to add independent circuits to handle home theater requirements for fire safety purposes, "NEED" to be posted. Comments about upgrading duplex outlets to "hospital" grade duplex outlets, need to be posted. If one wants to chance burning their house down, that's on them but it's "WRONG," when one knows better, not to post "REASONABLE" concerns.
Why anyone would poo-poo "VALID" warnings is beyond this old man's comprehension.
mad.gif


Because your warnings aren't valid for the overwhelming majority. There are very, very few HT's that require anything not found in standard, modern house wiring.

You appear to be basing your statements around the assumption that adding up the peak power draw reflects any kind of real world situation, which it doesn't. It's not as if there's been a lot of reports on AVS of overdrawn circuits starting house fires. In fact, there aren't many posts where members mention circuit breakers tripping.

There's no downside to a dedicated circuit and obviously, any circuit can be overloaded, but let's not overstate the risks in regards to HT.
post #153 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
one should educate one's self better.... other than that, i have no comment...

As a recently retired, licensed, bonded and insured, general contractor who did home remodels for thirty years, it's safe to say I've done what you suggest.

Allow me to repeat myself, I have no ability to understand why one would consider poo-poo'g "VALID" warnings.

If after reading a rational warning regarding overloading one's circuits, one wants to chance burning their home down with an expensive home theater system because they didn't want to spend a thousand dollars to upgrade their electric service, that's on them.

Unless one is willing to indemnify another person, one should not discount warnings.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/19/12 at 6:53am
post #154 of 460
< sigh >
post #155 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

I plan to use my current Denon 4311 as my preamp till I upgrade, 4311 has no XLR outputs, How do I use it with an amp that has only XLR inputs ?

The 4311 is an excellent preamp. Like amps, preamps and prepro won't make as much a difference as speakers and the room itself. I would not waste a dime on upgrading the 4311.

They make RCA-XLR cables. Buy them from Amazon.

The Crown XLS2500 has both XLS and RCA.
post #156 of 460
My Top 5 Choices for Amplifiers would probably be:

Mola-Mola.nl Amp
Hephaestus Harpocrates
Marantz Reference Series MA-9S1
Pass Labs x350.5
Crown Drivecore XLS2500
post #157 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My concern in the number of watts being put on home theater electric outlets as most home outlets use15A outlet plugs on a fifteen or twenty Amp breaker; total 1800w - 2400w.
-

I have previously used two "2500w" amps along with a 100w x 7 surround receiver, and a TV, PS3, Laptop all simultaneously without tripping the 15a breaker they were all on.

...On the other hand, I've tripped a different breaker with just a heater and a treadmill.

I wouldn't worry too much about tripping breakers unless you regularily have parties (which would not be a good idea for the 83db/w/m Revel Salons anyways). Most of the time your amps will barely draw 1 to 5 watts driving the Salon2s. Only on dynamic peaks will it momentarily get louder, and that's not long enough to even worry about it.
post #158 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

If Class D amps are the way to go ( Based on your overwhelming recommendation of Crown and Lab Gruppen amps) , What do you guys think about Sunfire TGA-7401 Its a 7 channel class D amp, 400wpc @ 8ohm and 800wpc @4ohm.

I don't think Class D is "the way to go", though as you can see from my list above, I do think the best Class D amps have big pros.

I wouldn't get too focused on high end amps for the surrounds. Get some decent 50 to 80 wpc receiver amps or an Emotiva UPA-500 and call it a day.
post #159 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

I have previously used two "2500w" amps along with a 100w x 7 surround receiver, and a TV, PS3, Laptop all simultaneously without tripping the 15a breaker they were all on.
...On the other hand, I've tripped a different breaker with just a heater and a treadmill.
I wouldn't worry too much about tripping breakers unless you regularily have parties (which would not be a good idea for the 83db/w/m Revel Salons anyways). Most of the time your amps will barely draw 1 to 5 watts driving the Salon2s. Only on dynamic peaks will it momentarily get louder, and that's not long enough to even worry about it.

Again, never poo-poo advice unless willing to indemnify the individual. We're in a ten year old home with 20A breakers, I've had the electrician out several times to redo work original work in our home to make it "SAFER" than it already is and in certain cases, had duplex outlets upgraded to 20A outlets.

Our living room now has four-plex boxes as opposed to duplex outlets (no need for power strips) and all outlets are "hospital" grade outlets as opposed to inexpensive standard outlets one finds in your big box hardware/builder supply warehouse. FWIW, I encourage people to tell their home insurance representative what they plan to do and see if this impacts an agent's willingness to provide fire coverage.

Again, I'm fine with folks not listening to advice as that's human nature but I don't understand the need for others to actively poo-poo valid, rational, salient advice. This considering the number of residential spawned electrical fires that occur each year.

Maybe a bit of over dramatization will make my point. Why not just say; hey, ignore the dude and if your house burns down, I'm really, really sorry in advance that I told you not to listen to his advice.

tongue.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/19/12 at 12:57pm
post #160 of 460
Advice?

You're "concerned" about the "number of watts". I respond with "Probably around five on average" .

If one to five watts on average are a safety hazard, then why even do safety bother with 15a breakers or "home grade" outlets. Such things would not even pass code in urban areas if such was the case.

Stop ranting, and stop using the term "poo-pooing". please. Nothing is wrong with suggesting upgrading circuit breakers. But it's really annoying when you tell them one to five watts on average, normally for only two or three hours at a time, is a "serious safety hazard".

Reality is it's really off-topic for this thread beyond a side-comment. If you want to start a different thread telling about all the danger of one-to-five watt average power draws, be our guest. This thread is about the Revel Salon2s, and amps to drive them in homes, most likely at home SPLs, where even 1 watt at a time will give over 75db levels at the listening position.
Edited by Eternal Velocity - 8/19/12 at 1:00pm
post #161 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Advice?
You're "concerned" about the "number of watts". I respond with "Probably around five on average"
Stop ranting, and stop using the term "poo-pooing". please.

There's no ranting and stop "poo-pooing" (I'm an old guy; choose your socially acceptable words and I will choose mine) my advice as five watts is not the sum total of an operating home theater system as watts are cumulative and Amps, when operating, use much more than 5w to generate 5w per channel, times the number of speakers being driven including the operation of the unit itself; operational overhead.

When good advice is poo-poo'd, there's more to the story as it's always a good thing to encourage having your electrical system checked out so it's properly rated and there's underlying bad reasons when folks say, don't have your electrical system checked out, especially if being wrong burns down the house. If I'm wrong, at most, someone is out the thousand dollars for a separate circuit and in the least, the price of having a certified electrician come out to the property and certify the home's electrical system worthiness. What price peace of mind? And if the naysayers are wrong, the house burns down. Let's see, who's giving the cheaper advice?

confused.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/19/12 at 1:24pm
post #162 of 460
How would you contrast the current draw of an HT system to say other things one might use in a home such as window AC units, vacuum cleaners, a steam iron or hair dryer, etc.? The continuous current draw would seem to at least be on a par with a complete HT system. And if you're blowing fuses that would seem to be the time to rethink matters. Over the years I've read the stories of a few people who hooked up meters to their systems. Nominal current draw was typically just several amps with peak levels in and around 9or 10 amps. This doesn't strike as a call to whip out the checkbook and start calling electricians.
post #163 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

How would you contrast the current draw of an HT system to say other things one might use in a home such as window AC units, vacuum cleaners, a steam iron or hair dryer, etc.? The continuous current draw would seem to at least be on a par with a complete HT system. And if you're blowing fuses that would seem to be the time to rethink matters. Over the years I've read the stories of a few people who hooked up meters to their systems. Nominal current draw was typically just several amps with peak levels in and around 9or 10 amps. This doesn't strike as a call to whip out the checkbook and start calling electricians.

With all due respect, there's no discussion if one is not adding or totaling watts for a given circuit as generalizations don't work in a conversation regarding watts, volts, amperage and circuit breakers as this is science, not art. I've taken the time to thoughtfully give an unequivocally valid warning. If one chooses to heed my warning and check further into my recommendation, terrific and if one wants to give advice that could have the consequence of burning an individual's home down and they feel comfortable with this type of advice, that's between them and the person who's house burned down.

What I can't figure, what's the big deal? Rational people say, "Hey, good advice." Irrational people say: "Don't listen to that dude." All this folderol for saying that one needs to be careful about adding too many watts to their circuit. Adding in high powered Amps onto a home theater circuit automatically comes with a warning that one may need to put in a dedicated circuit to prevent the chance of a house fire or if you will, burning the place down due to an overloaded circuit. It doesn't cost anything to research this subject further and it's a simple service charge to have an electrician come out and check one's electric service over to make sure they don't have trouble. It's called preventive measures. And again, anybody here is welcome to talk to their home insurance agent on this matter and in the process, tell the agent how being careful in this regard is silly and a waste of money.

If someone can afford to pay five or ten thousand dollars for a home theater system and decide they wish to add an outboard amplifier on top of all the other plugged in gear, they darn sure, if they don't know how to themselves, can afford a service charge to have their electric service professionally checked out. Me? I'm a retired general contractor. I don't need anybody to check our ten year old system out. If I were to add an off board Amp, without a doubt I'd have our electrician install a dedicated circuit to drive the Amp with. Some people feel comfortable chancing the possibility of burning down their home. I don't and my advice reflects this point.

On my part, enough said on the matter.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/19/12 at 4:10pm
post #164 of 460
good luck chu... orhers have tried and failed...

hopefully the message is getting through to others who are reading this thread...
post #165 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

What I am asking is, does this include like crap amps such as a $20 car deck/amplifier? What is the "minimum" cost for "all amps sound the same" to be accurate?

I don't know what the exact price comparison is. My recollection is that the Amps being compared are the regular Joe kind of Amp such as an Emotiva vs a Classe Amp. I do know the tests are being done on home audio amplifiers as opposed to an amplifier one would find in their car. Once the curtain is drawn and the person who claims to have Golden Ears is asked, their accuracy falls to statistical chance.

You and auditor55 should hookup for a cup of coffee. And live happily ever after.

butter and jelly please.
post #166 of 460
It comes down to if you like the sound. Being right on these forums is a poor consolation prize if you don't LOVE your stereo.
post #167 of 460
I can absolutely guarantee if you find someone who has a degree in electrical engineering absolutely 100% positive no doubt they will show you something like this

http://socyberty.com/psychology/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect/

I'm actually going to hunt down an electrical engineer to post on here to disprove people who have learned information not from text books but from the marketers and people paid to give these reviews and information of which people regergitate this "information" from one person to the next.

As of right now I'm looking for an electrical engineer.



irst off I think we should all agree that not a single person in this hread has learned from a text book no one.
post #168 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
sure you will... 15A outlets are perfectly acceptable under code on a 20A circuit as long as there is more than one outlet (a "nornal" duplex outlet couts as 2, fwiw)...
there are several areas in a house that are required to have 20A circuits (bathrooms, for example)... they are not required to have 20A outlets...
a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, otoh, would be a BIG no-no...
i agree he'll be fine in terms of available juice though... smile.gif
Oops. I got it backwards. Thanks.
post #169 of 460
Thread Starter 
This is from a friend/dealer , Ithought it will add to the value of the discussion , I'm removing the name and contact to respect his privacy/identity as I didn't ask his permission to publish this, but it's just another opinion which I respect.
Hi Babak,
 
I just today came across your $10k Amp thread and find it quite amusing.
 
I feel bad for you being a beginner getting such crazy advices from so many different self styled experts.
 
We spoke some time ago on the phone and you said you would contact me when you were ready to purchase your speakers.  I see you found a great price on a demo pair.  That is GREAT.
 
When it comes to amps, the guys who say there is "no difference" simply don't have enough experience, don't have any listening skills, or don't know how amps interact with different speakers to get certain sonic qualities.
 
Wouldn't it be great if you "DIDN'T" have to turn your speakers up really loud (potentially damaging your hearing) to hear the detail and resolution you want?
 
To be sure, you can use virtually any amp with a lot of power and get pretty good sound, but if you want quality sound with sound staging, imaging, resolution, detail, high quality bass, and all the rest, then you will need to get an amp or amps that will give you what your speakers are capable of producing.
 
If all you want is HT sound then grab an ATI (I am a dealer) and you'll be fine, but you wasted your $$ on REVEL speakers and their potential.
 
If you want to really learn this hobby (not just HT) then feel free to call me again and we can discuss what I would do for you and why.  Reading the responses from most of these guys (even the ones with speakers like yours) is comical since if you look at how they listen, and what they listen to, they really have no idea what they are talking about.

Edited by babak147 - 8/20/12 at 8:26am
post #170 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

First off I think we should all agree that not a single person in this hread has learned from a text book no one.
I've learned things from text books!biggrin.gif
post #171 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

This is from a friend/dealer , Ithought it will add to the value of the discussion , I'm removing the name and contact to respect his privacy/identity as I didn't ask his permission to publish this, but it's just another opinion which I respect.
[IHi Babak,
 
I just today came across your $10k Amp thread and find it quite amusing.
 
I feel bad for you being a beginner getting such crazy advices from so many different self styled experts.
 
We spoke some time ago on the phone and you said you would contact me when you were ready to purchase your speakers.  I see you found a great price on a demo pair.  That is GREAT.
 
When it comes to amps, the guys who say there is "no difference" simply don't have enough experience, don't have any listening skills, or don't know how amps interact with different speakers to get certain sonic qualities.
 
Wouldn't it be great if you "DIDN'T" have to turn your speakers up really loud (potentially damaging your hearing) to hear the detail and resolution you want?
 
To be sure, you can use virtually any amp with a lot of power and get pretty good sound, but if you want quality sound with sound staging, imaging, resolution, detail, high quality bass, and all the rest, then you will need to get an amp or amps that will give you what your speakers are capable of producing.
 
If all you want is HT sound then grab an ATI (I am a dealer) and you'll be fine, but you wasted your $$ on REVEL speakers and their potential.
 
If you want to really learn this hobby (not just HT) then feel free to call me again and we can discuss what I would do for you and why.  Reading the responses from most of these guys (even the ones with speakers like yours) is comical since if you look at how they listen, and what they listen to, they really have no idea what they are talking about.][/I]
Sounds to me like he wants to make some money. Kidding! There are plenty of dealers out there who haven't looked into the science behind the sound. I'll bet you any amount of money he thinks exotic cables make a difference too. Just because he's in the business doesn't automatically make him an authority. To me it's kind of like the wine industry. There are plenty of wines out there and if I taste them side by side I can tell some small subtle differences. But if I just have a single bottle of wine in front of me with the label hidden there is no way I could tell you what kind of wine it was.(of course that may mean I have a crappy palate too.) that is kind of how I view boutique stereo dealers. All hersay acquired knowledge but no basis in the science behind the sound.

But seriously, the science is pretty clear. Power is power. If you give enough juice to your Revels they will sound great. As long as you don't get a total crap amp then you should be fine. But it's your cash to spend as you see fit. If you think a more expensive amp is warranted then who are we to tell you no?
post #172 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

If all e you want is HT sound then grab an ATI (I am a dealer) and you'll be fine, but you wasted your $$ on REVEL speakers and their potential.

Then why do Siegfried Linkwitz and Kevin Voecks suggest ATI amps? Linkwitz, who doesn't even own a TV, and Voecks, who designed the Revels.

I think there are amps that add to the signal. Some people are fans of them. Yes there are amps that give you the signal bare, like it was recorded and mixed and mastered. I guess that's what he's referring to as "HT Sound" (Accurate). He can definitely introduce you to tube amps with special "effects processing" but that does not mean they are more musical.
post #173 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

I have a question here. If the sound difference all comes down to power and sound signature of a certain Amplifier then does it mean that the whole HiFi/AV/Audio publication industry is just selling snake oil ?
I'm new to this so please dont hesitate to correct me.
Here is some candidates across a wide price range why should I chose one above the other:
In no special order
- Wyred4Sound W4S ST-1000 STEREO 570WPC Class D Amp New for $2000
- Parasound Halo JC 1 400WPC MSRP $9000
- Sanders Magtech Stereo 500WPC $5000
- Classe CA-M600 Mono 600WPC $5500 each
- Bryston - 14B-SST2 600wpc Stereo $9550
- Cary Audio SA-500.1 Mono 500WPC $10000 pair
- McCormack Audio DNA 750 Mono 650wpc $9500 Pair
- Mcintosh mc452 Stereo 450WPC $7500
- Mcintosh mc501 Mono 500WPC $10000
- Perreaux 750 prisma Mono 750wpc $8495 Pair
- SimAudio Moon 400M Mono 400WPC $7000 Pair
- Threshold S/7000e Mono 600WPC $9500 Pair
- Bel Canto REF1000M Mono 500WPC Class D $6000 Pair
- Peachtree Audio Grand Integrated Stereo 400WPC $4295
- ATI AT3002 Stereo 300WPC $1850
- Passlab X350.5 Stereo 350WPC $11500
- Krell 402e Stereo 400WPC Display $10000
- Marantz MA-9S2 Mono 300WPC $12000 ( should be easily bought under 10K)
- Emotiva XPA-1 | 500WPC Mono $2000 Pair
.......
This is the result of my own homework and AVS family.
Please feel free to express your thoughts or other options that I have missed.
PS: Since I dont have a PreAmp either , what will be a good Preamp match with your choice of Amp.
Thank you.

No Mark Levinson 532H? $8500. I've read Revel speakers are designed using Mark Levinson AMPs. I'm not sure you can still buy the McIntosh MC501 new --the MC601 has replaced it. The Marantz MA-9S2 is no longer being produced. You will have to find someone with stock or used.
post #174 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

This is from a friend/dealer , Ithought it will add to the value of the discussion , I'm removing the name and contact to respect his privacy/identity as I didn't ask his permission to publish this, but it's just another opinion which I respect.
Hi Babak,

I just today came across your $10k Amp thread and find it quite amusing.

I feel bad for you being a beginner getting such crazy advices from so many different self styled experts.

We spoke some time ago on the phone and you said you would contact me when you were ready to purchase your speakers. I see you found a great price on a demo pair. That is GREAT.

When it comes to amps, the guys who say there is "no difference" simply don't have enough experience, don't have any listening skills, or don't know how amps interact with different speakers to get certain sonic qualities.

Wouldn't it be great if you "DIDN'T" have to turn your speakers up really loud (potentially damaging your hearing) to hear the detail and resolution you want?

To be sure, you can use virtually any amp with a lot of power and get pretty good sound, but if you want quality sound with sound staging, imaging, resolution, detail, high quality bass, and all the rest, then you will need to get an amp or amps that will give you what your speakers are capable of producing.

If all you want is HT sound then grab an ATI (I am a dealer) and you'll be fine, but you wasted your $$ on REVEL speakers and their potential.

If you want to really learn this hobby (not just HT) then feel free to call me again and we can discuss what I would do for you and why. Reading the responses from most of these guys (even the ones with speakers like yours) is comical since if you look at how they listen, and what they listen to, they really have no idea what they are talking about.

babak, I challenge you to call out your dealer friend. I haven't been around this industry as long as a lot of others, but if there is one thing I have learned is that if you don't question everything, you are only doing yourself a disservice. With that said, as many many others have already pointed out, let your ears tell you what you like. Since your dealer friend has the resources to accommodate then have him set-up A/B comparisons between the ATI amp and other XXX (high-end) amp for you to compare directly. All I ask is that you go in with an “open-ear” and don’t let the price difference jade your opinion, as has been the case with me demoing gear in the past.

Of course, even if such a test were to be accommodated, I’m not sure how “objective” or “direct” such a comparison could be given you will not necessarily be in the driver seat. I’m not saying your dealer/friend would do this, but just simply turning up the gain on one amplifier can make one amp sound more “dynamic” or altering some minor settings through another type of DSP can noticeably change the “sound of the amp” if you get my drift. There are so many factors that can sway one’s opinion…

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

But seriously, the science is pretty clear. Power is power. If you give enough juice to your Revels they will sound great. As long as you don't get a total crap amp then you should be fine. But it's your cash to spend as you see fit. If you think a more expensive amp is warranted then who are we to tell you no?

The flying fool has a point… =)

It’s your money. I’ve been trying to shop smarter lately, but I still somehow trick myself into thinking paying more for a certain item will yield a more quality product. Also, I think it’s a mental thing because if you spend a lot of money on something you tend to put a bit more care into handling it. I mean, I take way better care of my Bose noise-cancelling headphones than I did my $35 generic noise-cancelling ear buds. Which ones sounded better? Humm….?
post #175 of 460
Well, unlike your dealer, I (we) don't stand to a make a profit on your decision.
post #176 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

This is from a friend/dealer , Ithought it will add to the value of the discussion , I'm removing the name and contact to respect his privacy/identity as I didn't ask his permission to publish this, but it's just another opinion which I respect.
[IHi Babak,
 
I just today came across your $10k Amp thread and find it quite amusing.
 
I feel bad for you being a beginner getting such crazy advices from so many different self styled experts.
 
We spoke some time ago on the phone and you said you would contact me when you were ready to purchase your speakers.  I see you found a great price on a demo pair.  That is GREAT.
 
When it comes to amps, the guys who say there is "no difference" simply don't have enough experience, don't have any listening skills, or don't know how amps interact with different speakers to get certain sonic qualities.
 
Wouldn't it be great if you "DIDN'T" have to turn your speakers up really loud (potentially damaging your hearing) to hear the detail and resolution you want?
 
To be sure, you can use virtually any amp with a lot of power and get pretty good sound, but if you want quality sound with sound staging, imaging, resolution, detail, high quality bass, and all the rest, then you will need to get an amp or amps that will give you what your speakers are capable of producing.
 
If all you want is HT sound then grab an ATI (I am a dealer) and you'll be fine, but you wasted your $$ on REVEL speakers and their potential.
 
If you want to really learn this hobby (not just HT) then feel free to call me again and we can discuss what I would do for you and why.  Reading the responses from most of these guys (even the ones with speakers like yours) is comical since if you look at how they listen, and what they listen to, they really have no idea what they are talking about.][/I]


This is why I buy from Agon.
post #177 of 460
House wiring not being up to HT standards? What?

Wiring that is up to code is made to handle MORE than the current potentially drawn through the circuit. The circuit breaker is the safety limiter in current up to code systems. They didn't care about how many watts a modern HT system might draw from a circuit because it doesn't matter WHAT is drawing that current, it only matters that it's designed to handle up to (and over) the maximum potential draw. If the draw DOES exceed the limit, the breaker trips.

As Chu Gai (IIRC) mentioned, putting a steam iron and a hairdryer on one circuit produces a greater draw than most folks' HT setups and the iron and hairdryer produce a constant draw as opposed to the intermittent peaks a HT setup might see.

A large microwave oven can draw 1100-1800 watts. A steam iron can draw about that much too. These items will draw that much on their maximum settings pretty much constantly while on. A portable space heater draws a similar amount and could potentially be plugged into ANY outlet. Who knows? Folks using one will just plug it into the closest available outlet. The code takes those items into account.

I've tripped the breakers thrice ever with my HT system. Twice because I didn't realize that several outlets were on the same circuit. And another time because a space heater was plugged into one of the circuits.

I initially had 3 Emotiva XPA-1's (500 watts each) and 2 Seaton Submersive HPs (2400 watt amps in each sub) on one circuit. With the TV, BDP, cable box, PS3 and Onkyo 5008 powering 4 surrounds on another circuit. The breaker with the subs + amps tripped at THX Reference two different times on some really loud scenes.

I moved the Submersives to their own circuit and was fine until someone plugged a space heater in an outlet on one of the high draw circuits, at which point another loud scene near THX Reference levels tripped a breaker again from the significant added draw of the heater.

Each time the circuit breakers did as they were designed to. They tripped when the current draw exceeded the breaker's limit.

Sure there are lots of electrical fires every year. Ever look up the leading causes? Crappy Christmas tree lights used to be high on the list. Poorly made power surge strips where the MOVs have exceeded their lifespan are another. Sheer stupidity is also a common one, i.e. folks daisy-chaining multi socket adapter plugs to expand the number of available outlets. In those cases, the fire doesn't start from the wiring in the walls, it usually starts in the first item in the daisy chain that has all the current for everything else passing through it when IT wasn't made up to standards to handle it. These days though, most properly made powerstrips have breakers or fuses that pop if someone is silly enough to try drawing way more current through it than it was designed for.

Oh, and another example of sheer stupidity, fire marshals have discovered on occasion, while investigating house fires, that some idiot replaced the breaker/fuse with a piece of metal, probably because the overdrawn circuit kept tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse, so some idiot thought they would 'Macgyver' it and probably patted themselves on the back for their ingenuity.

If your house is a hundred years old or more, sure, upgrade the electricals from box to outlets. Have a high draw HT system? Sure you can add dedicated 20 amp circuits to power the equipment without tripping breakers. Heck, you can even have them install 240v circuits so you can get the full potential of those Paradigm Sub-2's. But simply adding 20 amp outlets to the existing circuits is a no-no, no matter how nice those outlets may be.

And to the OP, I second the suggestion to take a look at Emotiva's amps. Loving the XPA-1's.


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 8/20/12 at 4:16am
post #178 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

This is why I buy from Agon.

What is Agon? Do you mean Audiogon? Or from those guys over at Overture that cater to the "Audiogon" crown?
post #179 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

This is from a friend/dealer , Ithought it will add to the value of the discussion , I'm removing the name and contact to respect his privacy/identity as I didn't ask his permission to publish this, but it's just another opinion which I respect.
[IHi Babak,
 
I just today came across your $10k Amp thread and find it quite amusing.
 
I feel bad for you being a beginner getting such crazy advices from so many different self styled experts.
 
We spoke some time ago on the phone and you said you would contact me when you were ready to purchase your speakers.  I see you found a great price on a demo pair.  That is GREAT.
 
When it comes to amps, the guys who say there is "no difference" simply don't have enough experience, don't have any listening skills, or don't know how amps interact with different speakers to get certain sonic qualities.
 
Wouldn't it be great if you "DIDN'T" have to turn your speakers up really loud (potentially damaging your hearing) to hear the detail and resolution you want?
 
To be sure, you can use virtually any amp with a lot of power and get pretty good sound, but if you want quality sound with sound staging, imaging, resolution, detail, high quality bass, and all the rest, then you will need to get an amp or amps that will give you what your speakers are capable of producing.
 
If all you want is HT sound then grab an ATI (I am a dealer) and you'll be fine, but you wasted your $$ on REVEL speakers and their potential.
 
If you want to really learn this hobby (not just HT) then feel free to call me again and we can discuss what I would do for you and why.  Reading the responses from most of these guys (even the ones with speakers like yours) is comical since if you look at how they listen, and what they listen to, they really have no idea what they are talking about.][/I]

an excellent piece of salesmanship there... hits many "hot buttons"...

lets just look at the third paragraph from the end...

"sound staging" - entirely up to speakers/placement and room...
"imaging" - entirely up to speakers/placement and room...
"resolution" - entirely up to speakers and room...
"detail" - entirely up to speakers and room...
"high quality bass" - entirely up to speakers/placement, room and eq*....
"all the rest" - ummmm....

as a few others have noted... if you have the money and you WANT the more expensive amp, far be it from me to tell you to not spend it... i have spent way more than i "needed" on more than one occasion simply because i "wanted" something... however, as many have pointed out, you don't "need" the more expensive amp in order to get all the "stuff" the sales guy is trying to hump...

* of course, the salesperson does not point out that soundstage/imaging and "high quality bass" are 2 competing goals that are very difficult to acheive with simply a pair of speakers, no matter how great they are (and that has nothing to do with amplification)... despite what one poster thinks, some of us have learned from textbooks (in addition to other methods of acquiring knowledge), and the reality of what happens when you put a speaker in a room is rather basic acoustics...
post #180 of 460
@max...

good post!
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