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Amplifier for Revel Salon2 for 10K or less. - Page 9

post #241 of 460
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Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

No, it's just someone that shares the same opinion as you.
Still doesn't make it correct or true.

Ok Matt34. I'm not going to argue with you. Do u know that some of the best audio electronics are made in your own back yard...there in Colorado? What about u? What kind of system do u have?
Are you familiar with Robert Harley?

attempting to use harley as a reputable source is not going to gain you any points...
post #242 of 460
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Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

an excellent piece of salesmanship there... hits many "hot buttons"...
lets just look at the third paragraph from the end...
"sound staging" - entirely up to speakers/placement and room...
"imaging" - entirely up to speakers/placement and room...
"resolution" - entirely up to speakers and room...
"detail" - entirely up to speakers and room...
"high quality bass" - entirely up to speakers/placement, room and eq*....
"all the rest" - ummmm....
as a few others have noted... if you have the money and you WANT the more expensive amp, far be it from me to tell you to not spend it... i have spent way more than i "needed" on more than one occasion simply because i "wanted" something... however, as many have pointed out, you don't "need" the more expensive amp in order to get all the "stuff" the sales guy is trying to hump...
* of course, the salesperson does not point out that soundstage/imaging and "high quality bass" are 2 competing goals that are very difficult to acheive with simply a pair of speakers, no matter how great they are (and that has nothing to do with amplification)... despite what one poster thinks, some of us have learned from textbooks (in addition to other methods of acquiring knowledge), and the reality of what happens when you put a speaker in a room is rather basic acoustics...

ccotenj, Am I the only one who understands that current from the amp controls the driver and thus partly determines the quality of sound? Sound does not get better down stream in a system! A B&K amp is not going to resolve infomation as good as Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) VK-6200. I know this for a fact! I've had both in my system. I upgraded from B&K Ref 200.5 (5-channel) to a BAT VK-6200. The BAT has far more resolution than the B&K amp. I'm not bad-mouthing B&K...I actually like B&K products. I just wanted to take it to the next level for resolution, detail and much tighter and well defined bass. And, yes cables can make a difference! But we all know that the subject of cables is opening
up a new can of worms!

there's obviously quite a bit that you don't understand... i will not attempt to teach you, as you already "believe" you "know" things that others don't...
post #243 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alembic4me View Post

You're right, but backwards...they DON'T improve anything. The just do less damage than cheap cables, so the original signal gets to the speakers more intact.
Michael
LWC
The thing you don't seem to understand is that the damage they do, cannot be heard by you or me. So your point is irrelevant.
post #244 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

My room.
I took these 3 photos with my cell yesterday, Sorry for poor quality , The room is not finished yet , It will give you an idea of size and power requirement.
Dimensions 21X26 ft.
Beautiful room. But unfortunately it is not good for sound reproduction. Unless you are willing to do some sort of treatments. Even the best system can't overcome a bad room. The room is perhaps THE most important factor in sound reproduction with speakers a distant second. A good room can make mediocre speakers sound great. A bad room can make the best speakers sound like poo-poo.
post #245 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

there's obviously quite a bit that you don't understand... i will not attempt to teach you, as you already "believe" you "know" things that others don't...

I concur.....
post #246 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamhead View Post

I concur.....

Educationl requirements required in order to be able to buy and use a pair of speakers aside, the room is not as bad as some are want to say it is.

A suggestions would be to set the speaker output perpendicular to the ceiling beams as they'll act as sound baffles. Once throw rugs, furniture, bookcases and art work are hung/installed and put in place, the reflections in the room will be greatly reduced/controlled over what, at first blush, one sees in the posted, bare/empty room images.

One way for an ego to pump themselves up is to tout how scary the world is and how their education is going save you. No matter the subject matter, it's not a scary world. The point, once the room is appointed, your speakers are going do just fine and all the naysayers be damned.

Oh, and as to speaker cables and interconnects, the same thing applies to cables as to Amps, once a curtain has been drawn so it's no longer a sighted test, DBT's have show that zero Golden Ears can accurately choose beyond that of statistical chance.

Regarding telling differences, in the end, how does one realistically use a speaker/Amp/interconnect combination? Are they all curled up in the critical listening position as they time the decay of a single piano note 100% of the time or are they on the floor with a glass of wine with loved ones and a Yahtzee cup in hand? Quad sixes; yip-pee!

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/21/12 at 7:52am
post #247 of 460
I would want to counsel every one to wait for the AFTER pictures of the room setup. A big empty room is simply a blank canvas to get started with. We don't know if it is going to be paint by #'s or he's going to have Rembrandt come in... Just a little patience please. I'm curious myself.
post #248 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Beautiful room. But unfortunately it is not good for sound reproduction. Unless you are willing to do some sort of treatments. Even the best system can't overcome a bad room. The room is perhaps THE most important factor in sound reproduction with speakers a distant second. A good room can make mediocre speakers sound great. A bad room can make the best speakers sound like poo-poo.

His room is not even finished. Why do people assume its bad even before the room is 100% completed? Even before it's measured?

Rugs, drapes, curtains, sofas, books, plants, oil paintings, and other things in this big room will contribute.

But I would rather take a great speaker in an average room than take an average speaker in a great room.

Let him measure the room before putting up large acoustic panels.

But let's say he doesn't measure the room. And what if the Salon2 still sound fabulous compared to everything else he has heard?

Why would he want to add acoustic panels if the sound is already awesome?
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 8/21/12 at 7:33am
post #249 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

I don't know the rest of ur system, but McIntosh is not the last word in resolution. So, this may not be the best example. Re: room size ... If u have a large room, and u have full range speakers, but don't have enough power to drive the speaker adequately, you run the risk of damaging the speaker by increasing the volumn to fill the room with sound. Therefore, amoung other variables, you should take the room size into consideration. Even speakers manufactures will tell you this.

It does not matter what size room, full range or not, those speakers are rated for 300 watts rms so an amp at 300 watts rms into 4 ohms is what he needs, max. A 1000 monoblock would do nothing but blow his speakers up if he turns it up too loud. I have owned and heard more than McIntosh, what I have done which you obviously have not is remove the bias before comparing. I own an $8500 amp now.
post #250 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

The thing you don't seem to understand is that the damage they do, cannot be heard by you or me. So your point is irrelevant.

Not irrelevant at all. AND you're incorrect.
So while this started as a recommendation on an amp for a set of REVEL SALON speakers, and abruptly turned into something far less beneficial (and friendly, I might add), I have a question for you...

If speaker cable makes NO audible difference...why would KEVIN VOECKS, who designed this great speaker, use KIMBER CABLE to wire it internally instead of lamp shade wire?
You have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not argue this any more.

Michael
LWC
post #251 of 460
^^^

because he was compensated to do so?
post #252 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tank_PD View Post

The Salon2 is one of the lesser efficient higher-end speakers, but I completely agree that the power requirements for speakers are greatly exaggerated. I would call your dealer or Mark Levinson directly. You may be able to get a Mark Levinson 532 or a pair of 531. Mark Levinson is one of the sister electronics company of Revel and their products are frequently paired together.
I happen to like Marantz a lot, but I would hold off on those monoblocks, as it appears they have stopped production and the model has been removed from their website. I think a new model is in the works and about to be announced / released. You may be able to find a good deal, but I still see them listed at full price.
If it were me, I'd probably get a pair of McIntosh MC601 monoblocks. smile.gif



The point that I wanted to make about the Marantz mono blocks was that a good deal can be reached on these models on the used market which is where I purchased mine. Since they are coming out with a new reference makes these attainable now-before, @ 12K, was out of reach for me and perhaps a few others.

I am also a fan of a high current amp. According to Marantz specs, these produce 150 amps peak current when called upon. From what I know, this is a good measure of the control the amp has over a speaker system-esp. the woofers. Also, since the amp is rated 300 wpc/8 ohms and double down to 600 wpc/4 ohms, would seem to make it ideal for the Revels.

However, there are a lot of great amps. A lot of them appear in this thread. Good luck in your quest!!! I would love to hear those speakers with whatever amp you choose. smile.gifsmile.gif
post #253 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alembic4me View Post

Not irrelevant at all. AND you're incorrect.
So while this started as a recommendation on an amp for a set of REVEL SALON speakers, and abruptly turned into something far less beneficial (and friendly, I might add), I have a question for you...
If speaker cable makes NO audible difference...why would KEVIN VOECKS, who designed this great speaker, use KIMBER CABLE to wire it internally instead of lamp shade wire?
You have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not argue this any more.
Michael
LWC

What metropolitan area do you serve?
post #254 of 460
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alembic4me View Post

Not irrelevant at all. AND you're incorrect.
So while this started as a recommendation on an amp for a set of REVEL SALON speakers, and abruptly turned into something far less beneficial (and friendly, I might add), I have a question for you...
If speaker cable makes NO audible difference...why would KEVIN VOECKS, who designed this great speaker, use KIMBER CABLE to wire it internally instead of lamp shade wire?
You have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not argue this any more.
Michael
LWC
There is one thing I dont understand. Assuming that the wire actually makes a difference ( I dont know , I'm a noob) , What about the wires inside the walls ? I urged the electricians to use 10 and 12G wires for my room , but even with that, they are construction wires probably a few cents a foot. What good an excellent cable is going to do if the cheap wire inside the walls are the weak link?. I understand the concept of power conditioner to some extent but If the power is conditioned before entering the premium cable why will it be uncondiotioned again ? Interference by other cables ? Is it that significant ?
Im no scholar in this but Kevin Voecks probably can get whatever cable that he wants for free and his endorsement means a lot of business for him and his company hence the Kimber Cable.
Just my two cents, and You are welcome to convince me otherwise.
post #255 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alembic4me View Post

You're right, but backwards...they DON'T improve anything. The just do less damage than cheap cables, so the original signal gets to the speakers more intact.
Michael
LWC

Nothing wrong with expensive cool amps and cables. If I were a multimillionaire, I would have expensive cool amps and cables and 10 exotic cars in my garages. biggrin.gif

But any difference a cable or amp makes is insignificant compared to the actual speakers, placement, and room acoustics.

Recommending a $10K amp for a speaker the OP paid $11K/pr is just not right. It's wrong.
post #256 of 460
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

His room is not even finished. Why do people assume its bad even before the room is 100% completed? Even before it's measured?
Rugs, drapes, curtains, sofas, books, plants, oil paintings, and other things in this big room will contribute.
But I would rather take a great speaker in an average room than take an average speaker in a great room.
Let him measure the room before putting up large acoustic panels.
But let's say he doesn't measure the room. And what if the Salon2 still sound fabulous compared to everything else he has heard?
Why would he want to add acoustic panels if the sound is already awesome?
If you guys look at the photos again , you will see that There is no flat roof to speak of. The walls on the wood stove side are short , Where my gear is going to seat if right against those stairs and the short wall separating it. , The wall opposite to the stove is pretty far , The wall opposite to the stairs ( the one with entrance door ) is the only real wall to do some treatment to. So what do you think ?
Edited by babak147 - 8/21/12 at 11:20am
post #257 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alembic4me View Post


If speaker cable makes NO audible difference...why would KEVIN VOECKS, who designed this great speaker, use KIMBER CABLE to wire it internally instead of lamp shade wire?

1. Nobody uses lamp shade wires. eek.gif
2. Kevin Voecks likes cool looking cables.
3. Kevin Voecks is a millionaire.
post #258 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

There is one thing I dont understand. Assuming that the wire actually makes a difference ( I dont know , I'm a noob) , What about the wires inside the walls ? I urged the electricians to use 10 and 12G wires for my room , but even with that, they are construction wires probably a few cents a foot. What good an excellent cable is going to do if the cheap wire inside the walls are the weak link?. I understand the concept of power conditioner to some extent but If the power is conditioned before entering the premium cable why will it be uncondiotioned again ? Interference by other cables ? Is it that significant ?
Im no scholar in this but Kevin Voecks probably can get whatever cable that he wants for free and his endorsement means a lot of business for him and his company hence the Kimber Cable.
Just my two cents, and You are welcome to convince me otherwise.

My next house will have Kimber cables throughout ! I will make sure the electrical wires running to my house from the street are also Kimber Kable. biggrin.gif
post #259 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alembic4me View Post

Not irrelevant at all. AND you're incorrect.
So while this started as a recommendation on an amp for a set of REVEL SALON speakers, and abruptly turned into something far less beneficial (and friendly, I might add), I have a question for you...
If speaker cable makes NO audible difference...why would KEVIN VOECKS, who designed this great speaker, use KIMBER CABLE to wire it internally instead of lamp shade wire?
You have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not argue this any more.
Michael
LWC

If IIRC, most Kimber wire is "common," Teflon coated, Belden wire company wire. FWIW, exposing my prejudices here, my mains are wired with Kimber Kable, 8TC (tested for low inductance) and the ends are terminated using Sewell banana plug connectors. I have a boatload of twisted pair Kimber, RCA, interconnects sitting in a box as I'm currently not using an outboard Amplifier. If one cared about build quality, for the price, back in the day, Kimber connects were the best thing happening. I've also experimented with Audioquest power cords and found they immediately killed the dynamics of the sound quality. Today, everybody is making great interconnects, it's just they're not Teflon coated.

The point, I have no grudge against Kimber Kable as I'm a buyer and user of Kimber Kable products.

I found noticeable (positive) sound quality changes with the addition of a separate DAC and bi-Amping the tweeters with tubes. I found no dependable change with the addition of higher quality interconnects. The better quality material supplied, the better quality the sound. I also found the more I fussed with the system, the less change I heard as it all became a sort of generic, homogenous, sonic soup; nope, can't tell any difference.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/21/12 at 12:24pm
post #260 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

If you guys look at the photos again , you will see that There is no flat roof to speak of. The walls on the wood side are short , Where my gear is going to seat if right against those stairs and the short wall separating it. , The wall opposite to the stove is pretty far , The wall opposite to the stairs ( the one with entrance door ) is the only real wall to do some treatment to. So what do you think ?

I think do absolutely nothing until you have your Salon2 hooked up to your AT3007 wink.gif and Denon 4311 and you have listened to them on your nice comfy sofas. biggrin.gif

If they sound just beautiful, you are done. They are for your enjoyment, not others. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 8/21/12 at 10:47am
post #261 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

What metropolitan area do you serve?

Actually, the company serves the entire US and some European countries as well. My specific territory is from The Rocky Mountains to the west coast.
Again, I'm NOT selling anything. Couldn't if I wanted to...just trying to be a friendly voice here...

Michael
LWC
post #262 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

1. Nobody uses lamp shade wires. eek.gif
2. Kevin Voecks likes cool looking cables.
3. Kevin Voecks is a millionaire.


Unfortunately, incorrect.
1) What do you think Monster Cable's bulk zip cable is? Very little more than a common lamp shade cable in a clear jacket.
2) I'm sure he does...but the cable is on the INSIDE of the cabinet, so it doesn't look too cool to anybody.
3) I'm sure he is comfortable in life because he is a great engineer, and has designed some stellar products. In fact, I own a pair of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Im no scholar in this but Kevin Voecks probably can get whatever cable that he wants for free and his endorsement means a lot of business for him and his company hence the Kimber Cable.
Just my two cents, and You are welcome to convince me otherwise.

Revel does not name Kimber Cables anywhere in their literature, and I suspect that if Kimber is giving away cables to companies to install inside their speaker systems, with no advertising....they wouldn't be in business too long.
Again...noy trying to sell anything (we sell mostly bulk cable anyway), just put in food for thought.

Michael
LWC
post #263 of 460
FWIW: http://www.kimber.com/products/loudspeakercables/tc/8/

"Kimber Kable."

Just an aside, call one these interconnect companies and ask for white papers backing up their claims. I ended up with a free set of cables but no documenting white paper. Note, somehow all these noticeable differences disappear in DBT where nobody achieves results higher than statistical chance. Note, wall wiring, receivers, DACs and amplifiers don't need fancy wiring but for some odd reason, you can't function without fancy interconnects. Note, why do high end amplifier companies supply basic power cords if their products are better served by fancy power supply cords.

Once a circuit is cleaned up to reject interference and inductance, all things being equal, it's all good and I'm a big fanboy of fancy looking interconnects but that's all they are, fancy interconnects. Riddle me this, if one is going convince me fancy interconnects are important, then explain why receiver and amplifier companies aren't recommending high-end interconnects in their manuals?

The best I'd recommend getting for these Revel Salon2's is some matched lengths of Kimber Kable 8TC for it's Teflon coating and low inductance. Above that and you're paying for somebody else's lifestyle.

-
post #264 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Nothing wrong with expensive cool amps and cables. If I were a multimillionaire, I would have expensive cool amps and cables and 10 exotic cars in my garages. biggrin.gif
But any difference a cable or amp makes is insignificant compared to the actual speakers, placement, and room acoustics.
Recommending a $10K amp for a speaker the OP paid $11K/pr is just not right. It's wrong.

hummmm.....I paid $5750.00 for my JBL 1400 Arrays (used) and $6700.00 for my Marantz MA9S2 mono blocks(used). It certainly sounds right to me.
post #265 of 460
I'm sure it does (sound right). And so would dozens of other cheaper amps paired with that speaker.
post #266 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1040x View Post

hummmm.....I paid $5750.00 for my JBL 1400 Arrays (used) and $6700.00 for my Marantz MA9S2 mono blocks(used). It certainly sounds right to me.

In the context of new (used can be a very different matter) equipment purchase, generally taking your aggregate budget a better system could be had with $11,500 in speaker and $1K in amplification vs $5750 in speaker and $6700 in amp. It's something I would be willing to bet pink slips on.

Your JBL 1400's could be driven with a couple of Crown amps bridged (effectively two mono-blocks). I doubt that your SQ would suffer and you would have $5700 to spend elsewhere.
post #267 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alembic4me View Post

Actually, the company serves the entire US and some European countries as well. My specific territory is from The Rocky Mountains to the west coast.
Again, I'm NOT selling anything. Couldn't if I wanted to...just trying to be a friendly voice here...
Michael
LWC

Ever attend RMAF?
post #268 of 460
Thread Starter 
Just a small point to all my AVS friends. First and formost thank you for taking time and helping me with your insight and knowledge. I have learned a lot from all of you.
I graduated 7 weeks ago, I bought those Salon2s not because I had disposable money , because I wanted to do it right and once. And it was something I cared for enough to invest in. Many friends recommended speakers that sounded excellent , but at the end I chose Salon2s because they sounded right and were approved by others with better ears and knowledge than me. ( It seemed like a safe bet), I didn't go with exotic or hand made ( small scale production ) speakers because I didn't know what to expect ( what the base line was. ) , Maybe next time.
I have been a headphone audiophile so far. I have a pair of Beyerdynamic T1, Beyerdynamic T50P , Sennheiser HD 650 , Phonak Audeo PFE 232 , Sennheiser PX-200, ...
DACs are Dacmagic plus, FIIO E17, Fostex HP-P1.
My last speaker set was a set of RTI Polks and Denon/Pioneer integrated receivers and Monoprice cables. So you know where Im coming from and how trained my ears are. I have never owned any separates ( excluding DACs and DAC/AMPS) of any kind.
My student loan total is probably more than many peoples house value. My monthly student loan payment can buy a single Parasound JC1 monoblock , So no I dont have throw away money. I only buy what I absolutely need . I dont want to be absolutely blown away when I visit John Doe's house and listen to his system and come home and hate my own.
I work 6 days a week , leave home at 6:30am and get home around 8pm ( doesnt leave much time for AB tests or auditions , lol).
So if I can get %98+ of a pair of say Krells with Crown XLS 2500's , Ill go for it.
Because of my professional background and constant noise Im probably half deaf anyway. lol
Just wanted to THANK YOU ALL and clarify that No, I dont have throw away money, and no i dont need to spend 10k on Amps, but i will if its what it takes to get the max out of those salons2s but Im hoping not to have to.
Also, Im not very technical , Dont know much about electronics and physics of sound. Just an average joe who likes to listen to his fav music and is getting slowly but surly picky about sound quality.
Please continue to educate me...
Edited by babak147 - 8/21/12 at 2:27pm
post #269 of 460
Nicely said!
post #270 of 460
good man!

you'll get 100% of the krells with the crowns... you are making a wise decision by spending significantly on the speakers and frugally on the amplification... smile.gif

use some of that extra money on some subwoofage, and an avr from a major cem with GOOD room correction to use as a pre, and you will be WAY far ahead of where you would have been had you fallen into the "audio jewelry" trap...

edit: to be completely honest... if you are running just the pair of speakers and buy some good subwoofage, you don't really even need a separate amp... for 1300, a denon 4311 would drive those speakers basically to their limits, and serve as a fine pre section... and there are many of us who have drunk the xt32 kool aid by the gallon when it comes to dsp...

although i admit to a certain amount of envy... possessing fine noisemakers right out of school is a nice luxury... smile.gif

now get that room furnished, so we can see some pictures... biggrin.gif as you can tell by some of the responses, there's a few of us who are interested in how it turns out...
Edited by ccotenj - 8/21/12 at 3:06pm
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