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Amplifier for Revel Salon2 for 10K or less. - Page 2

post #31 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

But at the same time, I'm not going to try to convince people that my $20K amps sound so much better than any 300wpc amps. They will look better and may make me feel better, though. biggrin.gif

Wow! You bought a pair of those Amps. Man I wish I could afford to buy a pair of those. biggrin.gif
post #32 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

The question is what is abundant of power for Salon2. When I was auditioning speakers I had a feeling that 300WPC was inadequate for Salon2s . My room is a relatively large room, Im wondering if 300WPC will do it justice or I will be on shopping road soon again.

If you even have a hint of doubt, get the Bryston 14B 600wpc x 2ch 8ohm/ 900wpc x 2ch 4ohm amp (retail $9K, street $6K).

You also get 20 yr warranty w/ the Bryston.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 8/13/12 at 11:29am
post #33 of 460
I would be looking for a pair of VTL 450MB's series 2 or 3 used. More than enough power and made in California. Tubes
post #34 of 460
This DBT is a good indication. http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

I use a Behringer EP4000. It does not turn heads but it is a beast and puts out 950w @ 4 ohm.

I'm currently saving up for the Bugatti production sedan so I had to go brawn before beauty on my amp. smile.gif
post #35 of 460
Once one of those Amps pass the Warranty they become expensive to fix. The Bryston leaves you worry free till the year 2032. Sell it used 10 yrs from now the new owner still has 10 years. Makes your resell value higher and will likely be purchased quickly. Quite a few professional studios use Brystons because of the reliability factor.Also, 10 yrs from now when you replace the Revels you'll still have 10yrs. of protection for your amp, Just something to consider. By the way the 4B is plenty of amp for the Revels I've heard them w/B&W 802D's, Thiel 3.7's and Aerial 7T's and none of these models seemed underpowered.. The 4B does 500wpc at 4ohms which I believe the Revel is a 4ohm speaker.smile.gif
post #36 of 460
Interesting. Does that DBT indicate that 24 people could reliably hear the difference between the two systems?
Edited by mrlittlejeans - 8/13/12 at 12:59pm
post #37 of 460
The conclusion was 14 liked system A, 10 liked system B and 14 were undecided which sounded better.

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post #38 of 460
I saw that. It implies that 24 people were able to accurately identify the two systems though in order to prefer one over the other. This would tend to argue against the fact that amps/cd players sound indistinguishable from each other when listening is done blind.
post #39 of 460
Yes, that is right. It seems to be saying that your dollar goes further with the Behringer.

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post #40 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I saw that. It implies that 24 people were able to accurately identify the two systems though in order to prefer one over the other. This would tend to argue against the fact that amps/cd players sound indistinguishable from each other when listening is done blind.
Not at all. It showed that people couldn't tell the difference between a cheap amp with cheap interconnects and a cheap cd player and a totally high end system. Roughly an equal amount chose one or the other which to me indicates that there was no appreciable difference in sound between the two.

Otherwise, there would be an obvious clustering of choices one one of the systems.
post #41 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I saw that. It implies that 24 people were able to accurately identify the two systems though in order to prefer one over the other. This would tend to argue against the fact that amps/cd players sound indistinguishable from each other when listening is done blind.

Statistically, it's called guessing. If one were to mark A in every box of a multiple choice test with three choices, if a hundred and twenty test questions evenly distributed, they'd be right 1/3 of the time which is what you have here; guessing. If they're right, they can say, see, I'm good. But if the test were done twenty times, those who correctly guessed the first time, would be eliminated in subsequent testing till maybe you had one or three out of a group of twenty people guessing 26%. The more tests done, the lower the guess rate; statistical average, IIRC is 17%. The more DBT done, the fewer individuals will have consistently made the desirable choice; process of elimination; meta studies. Would you go to a dentist who has an admitted one in four hit rate?

In the case of the aforementioned test, you had what seem to be, five individuals. And out of these five individuals you have 38 tests and "ONLY" 26% accurate identification of the better equipment, yet you have a much larger statistical number of fails, either not being able to make a choice or the "inferior" equipment being chosen. When a test shows 74% not being able to tell good gear from obviously "inferior" equipment with the poorest quality of interconnects and mountings, this point and this point alone should cause one's eyes to open. The test results are consistent with similar tests I've read over the last twenty years.

It never hurts to know what each participant's hit rate was.

Everybody should spend their money anyway of their choosing but friendly audio-heads encourage fellow audio-heads to do so with their eyes open. After all, it's the civil thing to do. cool.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/13/12 at 2:01pm
post #42 of 460
Thread Starter 
Is $6000 a good price for a pair od Parasound JC1s from an authorized dealer ?
post #43 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Not at all. It showed that people couldn't tell the difference between a cheap amp with cheap interconnects and a cheap cd player and a totally high end system. Roughly an equal amount chose one or the other which to me indicates that there was no appreciable difference in sound between the two.
Otherwise, there would be an obvious clustering of choices one one of the systems.

That's what I got out of it: they could not statistically tell the difference, which is the same finding as every single DBT comparing amps.

Amps sound the same. Amps are overrated. Power / Watts requirement is exaggerated.

I bet if they lower the gain level of a $20,000 amp to 3dB lower than the gain level of a $200 amp in a DBT, 100% of the people would pick the $200 amp. biggrin.gif

When people have to "crank" up the volume knob, they always feel like the amp lacks "power". But if they increase the gain by +3dB to +6dB, they wouldn't have to "crank" up the volume knob. It sounds ridiculously simple, but that's my experience.

For example, a guy had a 250wpc amp. His AVR channel level was 0.0dB. He had to turn up the master volume to -10 dB for good volume. He complained the amp is under-powered. He said his speakers sound compressed. I told him to increase his channel level to +6dB. Now he turns the volume to -25.0 and it is loud and clear. His speakers are now "dynamic". biggrin.gif It was a pure volume increase. The power output was not increased. But subjectively in his mind, he feels the amp has more power because the music is loud and clear at -25dB, instead of -10dB. biggrin.gif
post #44 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Is $6000 a good price for a pair od Parasound JC1s from an authorized dealer ?
Normally they run $4500 each. So you've got a $3000 savings. smile.gif
post #45 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Is $6000 a good price for a pair od Parasound JC1s from an authorized dealer ?

The JC1 is 400watts. Not a significant increase from a 300wpc ATI amp.

One thing that bothered me about the Parasound is that I don't see the big print "Fully Balanced" advertised.

When HTM measured the JC amp, the unbalanced output had a better SNR than XLR output by like 5dB! But a truly fully balanced design should have a better noise floor than the unbalanced! So this leads me to think that the Parasound is not fully balanced like ATI/ Mark Levinson/ Lexicon.

Anyway, 400wpc vs 300wpc is not that significant.

If you want more than ATI's 300wpc, you need to step up to the Bryston 14B's 600wpc x 2ch. biggrin.gif
post #46 of 460
Thread Starter 
Good Point.
post #47 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The JC1 is 400watts. Not a significant increase from a 300wpc ATI amp.
One thing that bothered me about the Parasound is that I don't see the big print "Fully Balanced" advertised.
When HTM measured the JC amp, the unbalanced output had a better SNR than XLR output by like 5dB! But a truly fully balanced design should have a better noise floor than the unbalanced! So this leads me to think that the Parasound is not fully balanced like ATI/ Mark Levinson/ Lexicon.
Anyway, 400wpc vs 300wpc is not that significant.
If you want more than ATI's 300wpc, you need to step up to the Bryston 14B's 600wpc x 2ch. biggrin.gif

Well, that's at 8ohms. At 4ohms, the JC1's double down to 800wpc while the ATI's only go up to 450wpc. I would say that is a somewhat significant increase.
post #48 of 460
Babak147, Welcome to the hobby. I like and use Ayre products. I have the V1xe, K1xe and D1xe. If you get a chance, you might want to audtion the Ayre V5xe...or if you can find a previously owned V1xe, this would be even better for your speakers. I also use a Balanced Audio Technology amp in a different system. Recommend that you demo as many amps on your speakers as you possibly can. If your dealer doesn't want to go to the trouble, then find a dealer that will accomodate your needs. You might just find that you can hear subtle differences in different amps...some good, some not so good. If, after hearing a few amps, you cannot tell the difference, then you task is easy and over.

When I was shopping for amps, I could hear little things that sounded either good or bad. I certainly cannot ID a certain amp in a blind taste test. But there are some of us who can hear what we do and don't like in various amps.

The guys on this blog, myself included, can make recommendations all day long until the cows come home. But, until you hear for yourself, you'll never hear the differences from one amp to the next. This can be a lot of fun. So, sit back and enjoy the ride...or in this case, the sounds. Happy Listening.

Sparks81
post #49 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

The question is what is abundant of power for Salon2. When I was auditioning speakers I had a feeling that 300WPC was inadequate for Salon2s . My room is a relatively large room, Im wondering if 300WPC will do it justice or I will be on shopping road soon again.

How large is your room?
post #50 of 460
Thread Starter 
What is a fair price for Bryston 14BSST2 with more than 15 years of warranty left.
post #51 of 460
I think others will agree that if you can find an AVSer that is local to you it would help to blind test some of the amps you are interested in. So maybe you can post the metropolitan area that you live in and find a willing member.

I think you would be ultimately better off with your final purchase of amp if you let some one put a few amps through your setup w/o you knowing so you can make an unbiased and fair (to you) observation and choice.
post #52 of 460
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

How large is your room?
About 300SF , Dont have exact measurements. Ill measure it asap.
post #53 of 460
amps 003.JPG 84k .JPG file
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It's been proven, over and over and over again, when a double blind test procedure is used, the individual being tested, cannot accurately choose beyond that of random chance.

Why in every thread about amplifiers, do naysayers such as yourself feel compelled to spew the same tired old BS?rolleyes.gif If you either A). cannot hear the difference, or B). have never tried such gear, stop trashing the man's thread. If you have quality and relevant information, then share it.

To the OP, I run a pair of Carver Tube monoblocks that are on budget and are stunning performers. I would also consider Mcintosh, Krell and the Parasounds that were brought up in the beginning of the thread. Good luck in your search.






Good luck getting me to believe all amps sound the same.tongue.gif
Edited by nooshinjohn - 8/14/12 at 9:14pm
post #54 of 460
I'm driving the ribbon section of some mid 90's Carver speakers with a Mcintosh mc252. The Carvers are a son of a gun to drive and the mac makes them shine. It's built like a tank as well.
post #55 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I agree, but.......
Some people don't even believe a $10K Mark Levinson sounds "good enough" or is "powerful enough". eek.gif
So anything less than $2K or even $3K will automatically sound like crap to them even if they have never seen the amp. biggrin.gif
Screw any DBTs that prove people can't even tell the difference between a $300 amp and a $10,000 amp!
People will believe whatever they want to believe. No changing anyone's mind. If they have the money, they will spend.
I think it's 100% ridiculous to say that a 300wpc Mark Levinson or Marantz or Lexicon or any other quality amp isn't powerful enough.
The only amps powerful enough for some people are the same amps they just so happen to own. Truly convenient. biggrin.gif
ML, Lexicon, ATI are good enough for Kevin Voecks, the head guy @ Revel, just not good enough for some reviewers who think they know something.

The Salon2 is one of the lesser efficient higher-end speakers, but I completely agree that the power requirements for speakers are greatly exaggerated. I would call your dealer or Mark Levinson directly. You may be able to get a Mark Levinson 532 or a pair of 531. Mark Levinson is one of the sister electronics company of Revel and their products are frequently paired together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1040x View Post

This reviewer had the Revel's and a couple other speakers for the review of these. I happen to own a pair and love them. I understand that most people may have a negative opinion on Marantz but until you listen....
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue44/marantz_ma9s2.htm

I happen to like Marantz a lot, but I would hold off on those monoblocks, as it appears they have stopped production and the model has been removed from their website. I think a new model is in the works and about to be announced / released. You may be able to find a good deal, but I still see them listed at full price.

If it were me, I'd probably get a pair of McIntosh MC601 monoblocks. smile.gif
post #56 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

amps 003.JPG 84k .JPG file
Why in every thread about amplifiers, do naysayers such as yourself feel compelled to spew the same tired old BS?rolleyes.gif If you either A). cannot hear the difference, or B). have never tried such gear, stop trashing the man's thread. If you have quality and relevant information, then share it.

My tube Amp is a Golden Tube SE-40 and I was sharing quality, relevant information. It's obvious you didn't take time to read what I had to post as your comments don't reflect what I posted. And no, not even you can tell beyond chance, high end SS Amps from lower end Amps. The tests have been done. The jury is not out on this issue. Once that cloth goes over the Amps, accuracy plummets. Those are the facts.

Some might find the beginning of the linked thread below to be educational. The rest of the thread is a good discussion on the matter. A lot of bases were covered in the linked thread.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/34084-can-we-really-hear-difference-between-amps.html

"In a straight 10-trial hard-wired comparison, Zipser was only able to identify correctly 3 times out of 10 whether the Yamaha unit or his pair of Pass Laboratories Aleph 1.2 monoblock 200-watt amplifiers was powering his Duntech Marquis speakers. A Pass Labs preamplifier, Zip's personal wiring, and a full Audio Alchemy CD playback system completed the playback chain. No device except the Yamaha integrated amplifier was ever placed in the system. Maki inserted one or the other amplifier into the system and covered them with a thin black cloth to hide identities. Zipser used his own playback material and had as long as he wanted to decide which unit was driving the speakers.

---snip---

"In sum, no matter what you may have heard elsewhere, audio store owner Steve Zipser was unable to tell reliably, based on sound alone, when his $14,000 pair of class A monoblock amplifiers was replaced by a ten-year old Japanese integrated amplifier in his personal reference system, in his own listening room, using program material selected personally by him as being especially revealing of differences. He failed the test under hardwired no-switching conditions, as well as with a high-resolution fast-comparison switching mode. As I have said before, when the answers aren't shared in advance, "Amps Is Amps" even for the Goldenest of Ears."


Some choose to accept reality and others don't cause science is science and it's hard for egos to grasp scientific fact. I'm not bagging on anybody. A question was asked and a warning was given. You're the one who continues with the lambasting. Enjoy the hobby.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/15/12 at 6:19am
post #57 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post


Why in every thread about amplifiers, do naysayers such as yourself feel compelled to spew the same tired old BS?rolleyes.gif If you either A). cannot hear the difference, or B). have never tried such gear, stop trashing the man's thread. If you have quality and relevant information, then share it.
To the OP, I run a pair of Carver Tube monoblocks that are on budget and are stunning performers. I would also consider Mcintosh, Krell and the Parasounds that were brought up in the beginning of the thread. Good luck in your search.
Good luck getting me to believe all amps sound the same.tongue.gif

I would think most posters would find the view point that you 'have' to spend $10K on amplification to make the Salons really shine not a valid argument.

Speaking about trying gear: After owning Parasound, Adcom, Carver and having a $7500 Classe in house for a bit I personally encourage the OP to try and get a few amps covering the price range, gain match if possible, throw a towel over the it and simply listen to the speakers. I mentioned pro-audio gear before to have people come out of the wood work to denounce it even though 'B). have never tried such gear'.

I even offered a Parasound for free to anyone that could come and pick it out 9/10 coin flips vs some 'pro-audio junk' Crown XLS 402D amplifier. Over a period of three years no takers.

Ultimately if the OP is going to feel compromised by not making a $10K purchase then they shouldn't. The system will never sound like they think it should sound.
Edited by Jinjuku - 8/15/12 at 9:00am
post #58 of 460
You could by this, have extra channels available for amplification, and never look back.


http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/reference-series/products/xpr5

Spending ridiculous amounts of money on an amp for no other reason other than to brag to other people how much you spent on it is ridiculous.
post #59 of 460
The Editor at Hometheaterequipment.com picked up a few Crown XLS Drivecores on a lark to test on his B&W 800 Diamonds. Long story short: He dumped his Parasound 2250.


Linky


His experience paralleled mine with my Parasounds.
post #60 of 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

The Editor at Hometheaterequipment.com picked up a few Crown XLS Drivecores on a lark to test on his B&W 800 Diamonds. Long story short: He dumped his Parasound 2250.

Linky

His experience paralleled mine with my Parasounds.

So would this be an oxymoron then:
Quote:
Soundstage width and depth opened up even more and the detail, control and texture within also improved.

I thought all amps sound the same...wink.gif

In my case, I experienced a huge upgrade in sound quality going from the Crown 402 to the Parasound A23.
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