Amplifier for Revel Salon2 for 10K or less. - Page 14

This article doesn't mention how two buck chuck is made -- there is a large variety from bottle to bottle. They are made from the discarded grapes from other wineries. So you can get a really good one, or a really bad one. Buy three next time and taste them.

If you know about Two Buck Chuck, you know they grab anything grown in California (a suggestion would to be to check on how you're using the term discarded), crush it and after fermenting, age it in stainless steel with some burnt oak chips for, I think, a couple of months and then bottle it.

My tastes grew out of Two Buck Chuck and now, if American, I'm a Carneros region convert first, Napa/Sonoma region second and if French, Bordeaux region. And yes, true wine experts can taste for regional differences. I'm not a wine expert and don't try to play one in real life. And yes, I'm a sucker for a meaty, oily, smear it all over your face, full bodied, Chardonnay.

The point was not to argue wine making/tasting but how Golden Tongue experts are not as educated as they like to think they are and the same with Golden Ears. Once the sheet goes over the gear, the best Golden Ear experts consistently score is, statistical chance.

One can argue all they want as to the why of their failure but in the end, there's no excuse. If one knows what they're doing and they're only able to consistently score statistical chance, then the truth is, life isn't how the Golden Ear wants it to be. And being real, if at best, the Golden Ears can only score statistical chance, then sadly, us mere mortals can only expect to do the same.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/29/12 at 1:30pm

Really looking at the same answers as I'm planning on running the Salon2's also. Question I have is it seems the OP wants to run them 2 channel system.

Haven't read much talk about the Anthem P2? It has plenty of power at 325x2. What I like about it is if you decide to run 7.1 it's easy to add the P5 with the same power and add the beautiful sounding Ultima System.

The other amps on the list are mostly monoblocks so adding more of them for a 7.1 system would be both space limiting and $ limiting. Do most of the other high end brands have matchings mutil channel amps to run in 7.1 for future upgrades?? Just something to consider for future plans.

The answer is... sometimes.

Some manufacturers have been phasing out their three channel amps over the years, others are starting to roll them out.

Anthem stuff is good. There is a US brand named ACURUS that I've been curious about. It runs 300 watts into 4ohm loads. The have 2, 5, & 7 channels right now and a 3 channel version coming this summer.

Link: http://www.acurusav.com/a2002/

MSRP: $2,499 for the 2 channel.

Anotherbrand, Aragon, makes some very powerful pieces for around $4500. SIDE NOTE: I think they look really neat.

http://www.aragonav.com/8008

These brands were both resurrected under Indy Audio Labs (LINK: http://www.indyaudiolabs.com/1home.aspx) .
Edited by PlexMulti - 3/31/13 at 5:12am

ATI makes 2Ch, 3Ch, 4Ch, 5Ch, 6Ch, 7Ch amps.

An ATI AT2002 amp is only $1200.
http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/ati-at2005-five-channel-x-200-watt-amplifier-b-stock-120-v-1.html

ATI makes amps for Harman (Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL), Theta Digital, B&K, and Cary Audio.

The AT2000 & AT3000 amps are fully balanced dual differential amps with fuse-less protection circuit. Made in California w/ 7 years warranty.

This is a great brand as well. It's a fine product!

As my screen name "Acu" suggest, I really do like Acurus/ Aragon a lot. Acurus was like my first "audio love".

But when I bought my Acurus 200x3 amps, they were $1000 each. I can't recommend Acurus or Aragon at the prices they are charging these days.

I know the Acurus amps are NOT fully balanced. Are any of the Aragon amps even FULLY BALANCED DUAL DIFFERENTIAL for that kind of price?

Exceptional amp. The main way I judge amps is by a self-noise test. Basically, I plug my iPhone into each RCA input, hook a cheap but super-efficient horn tweeter up to the speaker taps, and see how close I have to get to the tweeter to hear hiss. The finest amps I've tried by that test are the Anthem Statement P-series, the current Bryston 5-channel, the Bryston 4B-ST (older model), the McIntosh 200W/ch 7channel...and the Sherwood A-965.

I've not done the test with an ATI amp. That will likely change in a few weeks, as I will be visiting a friend with the Lexicon variant of the AT2007 and will take the tweeter with me.

The only thing I don't like about Anthem is that their warranty terms are asinine, even on the Statement products: only valid to original purchaser from an "authorized dealer," and not transferrable to subsequent purchasers. (The mini-exception to their non-transferabiliy rule is if the piece was taken in as a trade by one of those so-called "authorized dealers" and resold by that "authorized dealer.")

I think Anthem's venal warranty terms hurt their products' resale value. Certainly, in this case it's cost them consideration. I'm willing to except diminished resale value due to warranty terms for a $1000 AVR that has a likely lifespan of 5-7 years anyway, but not for a mid-four-figure amp.

I will be meeting with the Factory reps in a few weeks. I will ask them for you. I am in quite a quandary on the Aurus/Aragon line vs. ATI depending on some issues on the busness end. I am leaning ATI becuase their line is fuller, but we'll see. I won't be making a decision on which to bring in for a month or two anyway.

As a consumer, knowing that you can buy a fully balanced AT2002 amp for $1200 (which is essentially a Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Theta, B&K, Cary Audio) makes it very difficult to want to spend $2500 on a single-balanced Acurus or $4500 Aragon!

It seems quite a few Revel owners buy ATI amps because they know the Harman affiliation with ATI.

If the Acurus and Aragon 200WPC x 2ch amp were in $1.2K & $2.5K range, respectively, consumers might consider it.

I mean on one hand we have the $22K Salon2, $80K JBL Everest, $15K Linkwitz Orion, $10K Mark Levinson, $7K Lexicon all in ATI's favor and "endorsement" either directly or indirectly.

What does Acurus/ Aragon have in their favor to warrant a much steeper premium?

And when consumers see the specs on the ATI/ Mark Levinson vs the Aragon, they will really scratch their heads. For example, the AT2000 has a SNR of -123dB & Crosstalk of -100dB, while the Aragon has a SNR of -110dB and no mention of Crosstalk.

Why pay more for LESS?

Back then I had 4 Acurus amps. Now I have 4 ATI amps.

My Revel Salon2, B&W 802D2, KEF 201/2, & TAD 2201 love their AT3005 amp. My dual Funk 18.0 TSAD subs love their AT3002 amp. My Linkwitz Orion3 & dual RBH SX-1010N subs love their AT6012 amp. And my 4 Velodyne SC600 subs love their AT2004 amp.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 3/31/13 at 1:42pm

But is it actually fully balanced? A fully balanced amplifier would need a separate amp channel for L+, L-, R+ and R-. A balanced stereo amp would actually have four amp channels in it.

Also, I wonder why they don't double down into 4ohms. Are they power limited?

Theoretically a balanced signal is less susceptible to noise. Can you hear the difference? I'm pretty skeptical.

I remember back in the 90s how Acurus was a good bang for the buck brand like Adcom, NAD, maybe Parasound, etc.

Isn't all of Outlaw's amps manufactured by ATI?

To my knowledge, I believe ATI only makes the balanced versions for Outlaw.

It's dual differential from input to output. Yes, the AT2000 & AT3000 are truly fully balanced from input to output, not single-balanced.

Mot consumers have no idea what you would even be talking about Anyone looking up, understanding, or even mentioning these things are literally less than 1/1,000 %.

Most of our clients buy what is recommended to them. Which is why I care so much and will do every bit of investigation possible to be able to provide them with the best choice and best value. It is an incredible luxury, yet one gained from hard hard work, that our clients trust us to the point where there is rarely a question asked as far as equipment selection. If there is, we have a good, fun discussion and make changes necessary one way or the other. Having the right product, priced correctly the FIRST time, erases all doubt. but, nobody ever looks up THD, or crosstalk.

I'd love to see a picture of the insides of one to see if there really are four amp channels. Lots of manufacturers claim balanced but they really have circuits to convert balanced to single ended. Parasound does this for example though they don't claim true balanced power.

edit: ATI does claim true balanced circuits from input to output so maybe they are.
Edited by mrlittlejeans - 3/31/13 at 8:22pm

I totally agree that most companies loosely claim "balanced" and "differential". So unless I see the actual words "FULLY BALANCED DUAL DIFFERENTIAL", I also assume it is just single-balanced.

So balanced/ differential = single-balanced/ single-differential

Fully balanced = dual differential = truly fully balanced.

Look at the prices of ATI/ Outlaw's balanced 200/300WPC amps.

Then compare them vs single-balanced amps from Anthem, Parasound, NAD, Rotel, Adcom, Sunfire, Acurus/Aragon, McIntosh's 200/300 WPC amps (only Mc 450WPC+ amps are fully balanced), Bryston and Classe (only their upper models appear to be fully balanced).

Then you realize what "bargain" and bang-for-the-buck ATI/ Outlaw amps really are.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 4/1/13 at 5:44am

Certainly not all cases benefit from having a fully input-to-output dual differential balanced amp.

We know that most amps are NOT fully balanced. Most amps that have XLR connectors are actually single-balanced.

But even more Pre-Pros and all AVRs are NOT FULLY BALANCED.

So to fully benefit, your processor needs to be fully balanced from input to output and your amp has to be fully balanced from input to output, your speakers need to be ultra high resolution, and the original recording also needs to be ultra high resolution, and the setup has to be ultra high resolution (BYPASS DSP, EQ, Tones, & Room Correction by using PURE DIRECT MODE).

Will we benefit if only the amp is fully balanced? Yes, I think to some degree. I also think using tones, DSP, EQ, and room correction will not benefit from fully balanced, only Direct/Pure Direct will benefit.

Good point. As a dealer, you have a great opportunity to help your clients make the best purchasing decision.

You're right. Only some audiophiles look at SNR, Crosstalk, THD, FR, etc, which are measured in Stereophile, Home Theater Magazine, Audioholics, Soundstage, etc. And as a dealer full of knowledge, I believe you should tell your clients these things.

I have an Anthem A-5 amp and it also is dead quite.

I thought the best test is hearing the actual music, not the noise from an iPhone.

To my knowledge, none of those amps you mentioned are FULLY BALANCED.

I don't think an amp has to be fully balanced to be dead silent.

But I don't think an amp has to be dead silent to reproduce great sounding music either.

Nor expensive as this video demonstrates ...

The only significant differences between modern amplifiers are in their self-noise and internal gain. (Higher gain can be an issue, because any noise passed down from earlier in the chain is amplified as if it were signal.)

In my view a quieter amplifier is a better amplifier. If one listens exclusively to "loudness wars" pop recordings, then perhaps it does not matter. For those of us who listen to music with ppp passages, or people with very sensitive loudspeakers, self-noise matters.

Now, how an amp gets to "basically silent" does not particularly matter to the end user.

I really don't care about silly audiophool buzzwords such as "FULLY BALANCED." I care about results. An amplifier engineer can concern her-/him- self with the details, but an end user gains nothing from doing so.

An amp does not have to be dead quiet at idle to be a good sounding amp.
My Anthem is dead quiet, my BAT is not but the speakers it's connected to sound great.
Most of the amps I've owned were not dead quiet.

FWIW, there are several amp designer\makers that don't consider implementing fully balanced circuits as worth the cost or trouble.
Power Modules is one and they make excellent amplifiers.

Fair enough.

But I'm saying that if they charge $4-5K for an amp, I expect the amp to be fully balanced.

For example, nobody complains about an Emotiva amp being single-balanced. Some people say Emotiva amps are dead silent too.

IIRC, the mono-blocks are balanced, but they were/are made in china through NHT/Fosgate, and the 2-channel stereo receiver is also made offshore. I vaguely seem to remember reading somewhere that all Outlaw multi-channel power amps were made by ATI though. Or maybe it was that they were all 'Made in the USA".

Your results aren't necessarily the same as others.

People could also plea "audiophool" regarding speakers. If they can't hear what you're hearing, does it give them the right to call your experience "audiophool"?

The science & technology behind a fully balanced dual differential design isn't exactly the same thing as cables and wires.

Emotiva's XPA-1 monoblocks (and the new XPR-1 IIRC) are fully differential dual balanced, but my XPA-1's dead silent? Not exactly. Very, very quiet? Yes. I need to have my ear within ~4" of the Focus SE's tweeter to hear the soft hiss (95db/w/m).


Max

Not sure what your point is here. I never made any claim beyond the narrow one that I've done my above-described amp self-noise test with a number of amps, and the samples of the ones I mentioned above were the lowest in self-noise. Self-noise is important, though I suppose some would rather pay for a name and live with residual noise lowering the resolution of ppp passages in the music.

Again, not sure what your point is here. There is certainly an astounding amount of audiophool idiocy about speakers. Read some of Gene Dellascala's rantings about those poorly-designed albatrosses some company gave him for marketing purposes, or Michael Fremer, etc.

Actually, to me it seems quite a bit like someone saying that silver wires are better performers than copper wires. The claim is technically true, but utterly irrelevant because one can easily find a perfectly sonically transparent wire made of copper.

What's in the black box is important for professionals employed in audio amplifier design or EE students, and makes watercooler conversation for people who care more about gear than music. But ultimately for the music lover, as long as it has sufficient bandwidth, sufficient power for one's SPL needs, low enough output impedance to maintain flat FR over its bandwidth into real speakers, and low-to-nonexistent self-noise, who cares what's in the black box, be it a FULLY BALANCED whatever or a hamster wheel?
Edited by DS-21 - 4/1/13 at 2:31pm