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Amplifier for Revel Salon2 for 10K or less. - Page 3

post #61 of 442
8/15/12 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

So would this be an oxymoron then:
I thought all amps sound the same...wink.gif
In my case, I experienced a huge upgrade in sound quality going from the Crown 402 to the Parasound A23.

I would welcome a reasonably conducted listening session for starters. My only advice to the OP is to listen without the bias of seeing what is currently playing. YMMV.
Edited by Jinjuku - 8/15/12 at 10:56am
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post #62 of 442
8/15/12 at 10:22am
I think amps do have a sound signature, but the difference is so very little and subtle and you have to really concentrate and critically listen for it with trained ears. biggrin.gif

In contrast, the difference among speakers can be a lot more significant.

I think it is very interesting how Andrew Robinson likes the Harman Crown XLS amps and how they sound with his $25,000 B&W 800D2. biggrin.gif

Kal Rubinson likes the Parasound Halo with his $25,000 B&W 800D2. biggrin.gif

I love the way my ATI AT2004 sound with my B&W 802D2. biggrin.gif
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post #63 of 442
8/15/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I think amps do have a sound signature, but the difference is so very little and subtle and you have to really concentrate and critically listen for it with trained ears. biggrin.gif

I went through this with headphone DAC's and amplifiers. Yes, there was a difference, when all squirreled up, eyes closed, headphones clamped to ears, concentrating on the decay of jazz cymbals or the lingering expansive of a single piano note. At a certain time and point, I couldn't tell if I was hearing a difference or making the change up in my mind like trying to see in the dark. In the end, is that how we listen to the sound tracks of "Iron Man", "Eagle Eye" or "Long Kiss Good Night or watch Gwyneth Paltrow do that cute little walk of hers or enjoy Sylvester Stallone chopping down the bad guys in "Rambo"

Please, anyone, with a straight face, tell me you're concentrating on sound quality when watching the hilariously funny "Bandidas."

tongue.gif
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post #64 of 442
8/15/12 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I went through this with headphone DAC's and amplifiers. Yes, there was a difference, when all squirreled up, eyes closed, headphones clamped to ears, concentrating on the decay of jazz cymbals or the lingering expansive of a single piano note. At a certain time and point, I couldn't tell if I was hearing a difference or making the change up in my mind like trying to see in the dark. In the end, is that how we listen to the sound tracks of "Iron Man", "Eagle Eye" or "Long Kiss Good Night or watch Gwyneth Paltrow do that cute little walk of hers or enjoy Sylvester Stallone chopping down the bad guys in "Rambo"
Please, anyone, with a straight face, tell me you're concentrating on sound quality when watching the hilariously funny "Bandidas."
tongue.gif

I agree. I listen more to the music and movie and story and actors than the amps and speakers. Yes, I do. biggrin.gif
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post #65 of 442
8/15/12 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I went through this with headphone DAC's and amplifiers. Yes, there was a difference, when all squirreled up, eyes closed, headphones clamped to ears, concentrating on the decay of jazz cymbals or the lingering expansive of a single piano note. At a certain time and point, I couldn't tell if I was hearing a difference or making the change up in my mind like trying to see in the dark. In the end, is that how we listen to the sound tracks of "Iron Man", "Eagle Eye" or "Long Kiss Good Night or watch Gwyneth Paltrow do that cute little walk of hers or enjoy Sylvester Stallone chopping down the bad guys in "Rambo"
Please, anyone, with a straight face, tell me you're concentrating on sound quality when watching the hilariously funny "Bandidas."
tongue.gif

I agree. When listening to movie soundtracks, who cares? That is why I use a Rotel for 5 of the 7 channels and a Mcintosh for the main l/r.
You can call me full of crap and challenge my lack of a controlled a/b cpmparison all you want. I level matched the Rotel and Mac to play through my main l/r's and could tell the difference on some material. With well recorded orchestral and jazz music, the difference was subtle but noticeable. On classic AC/DC, not at all. The Rotel is a good amp but the Mac brings out the best in my speakers in my room. If you are happy with a moderatly priced amp driving your speakers, I have no problem with that. Why Would that bother me? If I want to put a pure gold brick on top of my $20,000 amp bucause I believe it makes my system sound better, who the the hell cares?
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post #66 of 442
8/15/12 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I agree. When listening to movie soundtracks, who cares? That is why I use a Rotel for 5 of the 7 channels and a Mcintosh for the main l/r.
You can call me full of crap and challenge my lack of a controlled a/b cpmparison all you want. I level matched the Rotel and Mac to play through my main l/r's and could tell the difference on some material. With well recorded orchestral and jazz music, the difference was subtle but noticeable. On classic AC/DC, not at all. The Rotel is a good amp but the Mac brings out the best in my speakers in my room. If you are happy with a moderatly priced amp driving your speakers, I have no problem with that. Why Would that bother me? If I want to put a pure gold brick on top of my $20,000 amp bucause I believe it makes my system sound better, who the the hell cares?

This is 100% spot on. I am always amazed by the same bunch of naysayers that run through threads like this trying in desparation to save another audiophile from making what they percieve as a foolish buying descision. Here's a clue for them... it's NOT your DESCISION to make! The OP clearly laid down what advice he was seeking and did not ask for a bunch of BS about how a $300.00 Crown amp sounds exactly the same in a DBT provided you turn down the volume, null them so that they do sound the same and then listen to them. I have a friend that was at the fore of the null test, and according to him, the methodology used today is complete bs.... If you want to hear the differences between amps, set the volume ONE TIME, and then swap amps. Trust me, you WILL hear a difference.

Again for the OP, appologies for the mis-informed but vocal few that cam to offer something more than an agenda. Some strong choices have been made and if you would like to discuss your options privately, just shoot me a pm. I am happy to assist
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post #67 of 442
8/15/12 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Again for the OP, appologies for the mis-informed but vocal few that cam to offer something more than an agenda.

What you have yet to wrap your think around, there is no "agenda." Buy what you will and have a nice life but when advice is asked for, that's exactly what the individual is going get, advice.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/advice

"1. Opinion about what could or should be done about a situation or problem; counsel."

And rightfully, that includes advice or counsel you disagree or conflict with.
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post #68 of 442
8/15/12 at 6:28pm
I don't really see it as an "us vs. them" scenario. If I was going to buy a Porsche Cayenne, I'd appreciate the advice that the VW Toureg is the same car just another badge and 10K less. And it's less sexy.
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post #69 of 442
8/15/12 at 6:33pm
Arguing about the audibility of different amps is better left to the dead zone known as the "2 channel audio" forum. It's pretty much nothing but a place to argue about whether amps, cd players and DAC's all sound the same.
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post #70 of 442
8/15/12 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

I don't really see it as an "us vs. them" scenario. If I was going to buy a Porsche Cayenne, I'd appreciate the advice that the VW Toureg is the same car just another badge and 10K less. And it's less sexy.

It should also be mentiond that the Porsche SOUNDS better and has more watts under the hood.tongue.gif
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post #71 of 442
8/15/12 at 6:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

I don't really see it as an "us vs. them" scenario. If I was going to buy a Porsche Cayenne, I'd appreciate the advice that the VW Toureg is the same car just another badge and 10K less. And it's less sexy.

And after being pointed out, there's nothing wrong with paying an additional ten grand for sexy cause it's your money and none of anybody elses business.

I recently purchased a Marantz SR5007 and politely was chided for not going with the Denon equivalents. I've owned both in the past and the more expensive Marantz unit makes me warm and fuzzy inside. I like warm and fuzzy. biggrin.gif Now in my case, the difference was a couple hundred bucks but the point is the same. Once others took their thoughtful time to make their thoughtful point, based on this information, I made my own buying decision and Amp buyers should do the same based on what makes them all warm and fuzzy inside.
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post #72 of 442
8/16/12 at 2:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

This is 100% spot on. I am always amazed by the same bunch of naysayers that run through threads like this trying in desparation to save another audiophile from making what they percieve as a foolish buying descision. Here's a clue for them... it's NOT your DESCISION to make! The OP clearly laid down what advice he was seeking and did not ask for a bunch of BS about how a $300.00 Crown amp sounds exactly the same in a DBT provided you turn down the volume, null them so that they do sound the same and then listen to them. I have a friend that was at the fore of the null test, and according to him, the methodology used today is complete bs.... If you want to hear the differences between amps, set the volume ONE TIME, and then swap amps. Trust me, you WILL hear a difference.
Again for the OP, appologies for the mis-informed but vocal few that cam to offer something more than an agenda. Some strong choices have been made and if you would like to discuss your options privately, just shoot me a pm. I am happy to assist
Talk about mis-informed. Of course you'll hear a difference if the volume isn't changed because then they won't be level matched. If they are level matched you won't hear a difference except the difference in your head. It's the OP's money and if he wants to spend a lot on an amp that's fine. But he is asking for infomed advice on what he should do so we are submitting that advice. It is up to him to choose to heed it or not. Nobody is ordering him to do anything. He solicited advice and we are providing it.
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post #73 of 442
8/16/12 at 2:48am
1. Room
2. Speakers
3. Placement
4. Sufficient power to amplify the signal going to your speakers

If you can perfect the first three, the fourth one is a walk in the park.
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post #74 of 442
8/16/12 at 7:36am
I'm gonna throw in a company I didn't see anyone list. Lab Gruppen. In the pro-audio world these are amazing, I love using them. Please whatever you do DON'T buy Behringer! Any respectable engineer would never use anything this company makes. I have walked into venues and seen them connected to otherwise really nice rigs and wanted to cry. They are cheap knock offs and quality control is horrible. It still amazes me how many people I see on here that is using a behringer amp on really nice speakers and subs.
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post #75 of 442
8/16/12 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

If you want to hear the differences between amps, set the volume ONE TIME, and then swap amps. Trust me, you WILL hear a difference.

Have to be careful on that count. It cuts both ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Again for the OP, appologies for the mis-informed but vocal few that cam to offer something more than an agenda. Some strong choices have been made and if you would like to discuss your options privately, just shoot me a pm. I am happy to assist

There's no agenda. Just a wide range of suggestions and a way, hopefully more accurately, audition some amps. Even if the OP heard a difference between $2K of amp and $10K of amp they need to be able to do so in a manner that is going to effectively allow for them to do so. I.E. hear the amp and not the difference in output.

I think a reasonable approach to evaluation is being mentioned here. Just like all the people that may pooh-pooh a Crown XLS 2000 Drivecore, well I would honestly like to see that come by an honest blind comparo.

Look, if you can't trust just your own ears, why should anyone else? Amps never need to be seen to be heard.
Edited by Jinjuku - 8/16/12 at 9:11am
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post #76 of 442
8/16/12 at 10:51am
When the op was shopping speakers, I predicted he would get Revel, KEF, or B&W.

Now he's shopping amps. I'm predicting he will get Bryston, Parasound Halo, or ATI. biggrin.gif
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post #77 of 442
8/16/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by adupree View Post

I'm gonna throw in a company I didn't see anyone list. Lab Gruppen. In the pro-audio world these are amazing, I love using them. Please whatever you do DON'T buy Behringer! Any respectable engineer would never use anything this company makes. I have walked into venues and seen them connected to otherwise really nice rigs and wanted to cry. They are cheap knock offs and quality control is horrible. It still amazes me how many people I see on here that is using a behringer amp on really nice speakers and subs.

This seems a little off - I have two Behringer products - (2) EP-4000 maps and the digital EQ PEQ2496. Both function fantastically. However, they are professional products and are therefore designed for function and not beauty. I definitely appreciate the aesthetics of high end amps especially Ayre, Jeff Rowland and McIntosh but in my experience speakers are so much more of a variable. If I had an "extra" 10K to spend on audio to match my 10K speakers, I'd get 16K speakers, a 2K amp and 2K would go back in my pocket! Anyway, not lloking for a battle about Behringer but I'm just saying that I am a serious 2-channel listener (no HT) and I am totally happy with my monstrous Behringer amps.
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post #78 of 442
8/16/12 at 1:10pm
What other amps have you compared the Behringers to?
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post #79 of 442
8/16/12 at 1:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

When the op was shopping speakers, I predicted he would get Revel, KEF, or B&W.
Now he's shopping amps. I'm predicting he will get Bryston, Parasound Halo, or ATI. biggrin.gif
You are right as you always are. Your prediction is very likely.
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post #80 of 442
8/16/12 at 1:42pm
Behringer has a mixed rep for reliability, not sound quality. If you are only going to place them in a climate controlled home audio setting where they will rarely be moved, they ought to do fine. It's when you take them on tour that things go wrong. He was undoubtedly referring to their reliability.
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post #81 of 442
8/16/12 at 2:09pm
Ah, I remember my first wake up call when it comes to amps. I owned some big hitters thinking they were the cats meow. BTW, not for bragging rights because my friends never heard of Krell, Ada, Lexicon, McIntosh, Sim audio, etc.... All they knew were Sunfire, Denon, and Integra. Anyways, My awesome Gemstone amp(sim audio clone) was having troubles and I needed to watch a movie and I happen to have a Samson S-2000 sitting there and put that in it's place(for center channel) and I was shocked! So of course I had to test them out. Well, I still own Ada(cheap used) for a 2 ohm load but I started blind testing my friends to see if they can tell a difference. One time they all picked that crappy Behringer EP-2500 over my McIntosh amp! I could not tell a difference at all. I am with michaelkingdom, put more into your speakers and get the ATI amp.
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post #82 of 442
8/16/12 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 
Im leaning toward ATI AT3004 ( BI-AMP the fronts) and AT3003 to power the center and rear speakers. But since Im in no hurry Ill try to audition as many as I can. I made a long list Im surprised that only a few of those AMPs were commented on.
Anyone class D amps ?
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post #83 of 442
8/16/12 at 4:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Im leaning toward ATI AT3004 ( BI-AMP the fronts) and AT3003 to power the center and rear speakers. But since Im in no hurry Ill try to audition as many as I can. I made a long list Im surprised that only a few of those AMPs were commented on.
Anyone class D amps ?

If you go ATI and I am assuming Voice2 for center, I would recommend 3003 for front 3 and 2004 for eventual 7.x. Unless you get it set up right, biamp will not help much. For class D check this out but above your budget. http://www.devialet.com/index.php. Class A hybrid??
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post #84 of 442
8/16/12 at 4:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Im leaning toward ATI AT3004 ( BI-AMP the fronts) and AT3003 to power the center and rear speakers. But since Im in no hurry Ill try to audition as many as I can. I made a long list Im surprised that only a few of those AMPs were commented on.
Anyone class D amps ?

The Crown XLS Drivecore lineup is Class D. The Yamaha P Series are I believe some form of Switched Mode amp also. There are a ton of amps out there. Almost like they are commodity pieces and any decent engineering team can produce a solid offering:)
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post #85 of 442
8/16/12 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

When the op was shopping speakers, I predicted he would get Revel, KEF, or B&W.
Now he's shopping amps. I'm predicting he will get Bryston, Parasound Halo, or ATI. biggrin.gif

Those amps offer great value as compared to say Krell, Mark Levinson, Halcro and others.

A few post back someone shouted out Lap Gruppen. They are great as well. Shoot I have tried and sold a few FACE AUDIO amps.

Many choices for sure.

Just two more maybe. Cary Audio Design and Conrad Johnson
.
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post #86 of 442
8/16/12 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

What other amps have you compared the Behringers to?

Emotiva, Naim, Leben, McIntosh, Harman Kardon, Marantz, Sansui

I do know how to listen to music - like - listening for the decay of a cymbal crash / imaging & soundstage / dynamic range / sweetness-warmth-neutrality / dark background / all that stuff.

I don't think I know it all or can hear it all but from what I have heard I'd MUCH sooner go the route of AcuDefTechGuy with 4-5 top speakers and a few amps because for me speakers are so much more of a point where you can leverage your $ for sound quality improvement.. I do have some disposable income and if I thought a "good" amp would bring me better sound, I'd be buying one quickly.

Anyhow, there's people that can hear interconnects, power supplies and such.
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post #87 of 442
8/16/12 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

Many choices for sure.

Just two more maybe. Cary Audio Design and Conrad Johnson.

Just an observation here, considering the number of amplifier companies that are out there for consumers to choose from, my opinion, amplifiers are a commodity that's easy to design and manufacture. At this time and point, my opinion again, consumers are simply paying for profit to support the lifestyle of the amplifier company owners and the engineers they employ.

(climbs into flame resistant suit)
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post #88 of 442
8/16/12 at 6:03pm
But I do want a cool looking amp that has handles on the front. They look like they're so powerful you might need to hold on for your life. My Behringers kinda look at me like "yeah, we'll play your music." They aren't pretty but like I said, I do love their sound. My company does precision machining and does ruggedized cases for military electronics. I've considered building a faux case to look like an Ayre has and transferring the Behringer guts. But that's not really the idea, is it?
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post #89 of 442
8/16/12 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

Emotiva, Naim, Leben, McIntosh, Harman Kardon, Marantz, Sansui
I do know how to listen to music - like - listening for the decay of a cymbal crash / imaging & soundstage / dynamic range / sweetness-warmth-neutrality / dark background / all that stuff.
I don't think I know it all or can hear it all but from what I have heard I'd MUCH sooner go the route of AcuDefTechGuy with 4-5 top speakers and a few amps because for me speakers are so much more of a point where you can leverage your $ for sound quality improvement.. I do have some disposable income and if I thought a "good" amp would bring me better sound, I'd be buying one quickly.
Anyhow, there's people that can hear interconnects, power supplies and such.

Cool. Did you compare those in your room with your speakers or are they amps you heard somewhere else? Which speakers did you use when you compared the Behringer to the other amps? Sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you as that is not my intention. Just curious about what your path to the Behringers was and how you got there.
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post #90 of 442
8/16/12 at 6:42pm
BM no flame suit required.

To some point I agree. However there is a difference that I have heard with all that has come in and out my demo and home system.

Now the question is that difference worth someone's hard earned cash.

The likes of McIntosh MC205, Cary Audio Design Cinema 5, Parasound HALO A51, Sunfire TGA 5400, Bryston 9BSST, Audio Control Pantages G3 (current amp) and Face Audio TS700 (model ??) have all shared space in the closet. There differences to my ear only since I cannot back that claim up with any test graphs.

In addition I have had the pleasure of attending some rather high end system demos at various trade shows both public and private so the list could go on and on.


I also play with a rack of QSC PLX amps every Sunday in church and I'm just flat amazed by that product too.

No flames from me...
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