The Subwoofer Recommendation by Pricepoint Thread. - Page 2

Archaea, while I applaud the intent of this thread, the structure is hard to quantify and perhaps why it's difficult to stay on topic. 

 

I think this thread has much more context when the subs are mid to low range price subs (1000 or less perhaps?). Once you start to get in the higher priced subs, IMO people don't typically compare subs in a particular price range (e.g. I want to choose the best 2K sub), but rather what sub or combinations of subs they can buy for a particular price range (e.g. what can I get for 2K).

 

FWIW, YMMV, etc... 

What happens if Ricci would have done a 12dB cut on the Empire at 63 Hz and then tested the maximum output at 63 Hz? It would still have been 119.2 dB. You don't loose headroom with EQ. The reason they say "One man's cuts are another mans boosts" is because the maximum output stays the same - a boost can't increase the maximum output and a cut won't reduce it. As Mark Seaton has said, "EQ only changes how far you have to twist the dial to reach the same level."

The EQ makes sure the sub's output is flat until frequencies bump up against their maximum output. If the Empire was EQ'd as flat as the PB-12, a 90 dB 20 Hz signal and a 102 dB signal at 50 Hz would play the same on both subs (the signals are 90 dB based on the playback level). If you turn up the volume by 12 db, the Empire will play the 20 Hz signal at 102 dB and the 50 Hz signal at 114 dB. However, the PB-12 will play the 20 Hz signal at 102 dB and the 50 Hz signal at 107 dB.

Well, I won't even list the cheap subs because I have not owned any. I built two LLT subs tuned to 13.4 hz for $1000 that I would take over all your subs under $1200. One can build a vented or sealed UXL-18 sub for $1000 which I would take over everything under $1200. Duals would be $1700 which I would take over the Cap and submersive. That is just me. I would take a cap over a single 18.2 I had but not duals. I could build a vented LMS 5400 tuned to 20hz and it will have more output than a Cap as well but more expensive than the UXL-18 version. I like my eD system better than everything I have ever owned but I would not recommend them with eD in a state of chaos right now. I would just get UXL-18's or FTW-21's. I built one of my subs for $500 minus amp.

Yes, but will the empire sound as good if the midbass is so much higher than the 20hz with multiple frequencies playing at once? I have owned subs like this before and I like the flatter subs myself for overall HT because I can get better balance but I don't stop at 20hz.

I think the FV15HP should be on whoever's list at $1274

I recommended in my post EQing the Empire flat in the room.

Don't confuse headroom with frequency response. What I am saying is that you don't cut any spare headroom when you EQ. The headroom is all still available and is used when needed (see my example again in the previous post). The SVS will never have more headroom than the Empire above 20 Hz.

If I EQ the Epik Empire flat and play a sweep at 102 dB, then it will be flat. If I now increase the signal and play a sweep at 113 dB, what will happen? From 40 Hz and up the response will be flat and the sub will be limited to its maximum output below 40 Hz.

If I now play a sweep at 119 Hz what will happen? The Empire will now have a flat frequency response from 63 Hz and up. Below that it will again be limited by its maximum output. Meanwhile, the SVS quit giving any output beyond 103 dB at any frequency!

Was the Empire EQ'd flat? Yes
Was its headroom limited? No, the headroom was the same. As maximum output was reached the frequency response changed. The sub stayed flat above the frequencies it still had headroom, but below that it was limited by the maximum output capability.

Subs, regardless of EQ, will revert to their maximum output frequency response when pushed to the absolute max. This doesn't mean they aren't flat below that level and it also doesn't mean that it is a bad thing for the maximum response to not be flat. Movies have dynamic output and a sub with headroom will always sound better than the sub that is flat at maximum output unless its maximum output across the frequency range is never reached.

According to the Monoprice website, the 12" is discontinued?

There is a problem with your argument about eq not affecting headroom. It only applies to sweeps and sine waves, not the real type of content we feed subs when we watch movies or listen to music. Real signals are complex with many different frequencies having to be reproduced simultaneously. What happens when a sealed sub with a large boost around 20hz is fed a complex signal involving content at 20hz, 30hz, 50hz, and 80hz at the same time. If the amp is out of juice dealing with the boost at 20hz, how do you think it affects the headroom at the other frequencies when it has to reproduce them at the same time as the 20hz part of the signal?

I would agree with you if you use pink noise to test and boost down low since now all frequencies are trying to be played at the same level. Since real signal are complex as you say, not all of the frequencies are produced every moment which allows for a more balanced use of power.

Another thing to consider is that if you boost the Empire by 6-12 dB at 20 Hz using a Linkwitz Transform, you will now need a lot less power in the mid to upper bass frequencies since your sub is now EQ'd flat. This extra power is available for the boosted lower frequencies.

How much is the Danley DTS-10 currently? At the kit price I think I would have included it in the list.

I agree, the DTS-10 only gets beat by DIY so far as 10hz is concerned(output). It beats SVS's best sub by almost 10 dBs at 16hz! It takes 3 SVS's to equal the one Danley at 16hz and 2 at 20hz. It sure was a monster once dialed in correctly. They are no longer available and cost $3000 now. Of course for $3000 it is a complete sub and not a kit. I can't wait to see the Caps and submersive tested the same way. It will give us the perspective how awesome the kit price was!

As far as only purchasing single subs are concerned, I'd agree mostly with Archaea's choices, but would probably throw in the CHT 18 in there as well.

The interesting aspect is if one is limited ONLY to spending the amounts in the list, I'd go for duals vs. a single more expensive sub anytime. Best bang for the buck in pairs? After hearing/owning my subs in pairs it's the only way I'd go now. I've not yet had any experience with DIY products, so this is limited to only commercial offerings for now. Maybe this is a separate category, but with my experience, I like the following - prices before shipping for most:

400 - Polk PSW505s (shipping typically included) - owned, nice sub
600 - Klipsch RW12s (shipping typically included) - owned, nice sub
1000 - Rythmik FV12s
1350 - CHT 18.T / Dayton - owned, great subs for the money
1500 - Epik Empires - own, awesome for music and still very good for movies
1750 - CHT VS 18.1's / Dayton or SUB1 amp- heard similar (sealed)
1800 - HSU VTF15H's - heard other Hsu products, seem very nice
2100 - Rythmik FV15HP X 2 (with 550W amp, now discounted 100 off each) - the specs/tests on these seems absolutely fantastic for this price. Great looks too.
2750 - JTR Passive Cap 1000s / Pro amp (price based with EP4000) - Basing this off a similar sound to my passive Caps.
3350- JTR Passive Captivators / Pro Amp (price based with EP4000) - own, beast of a sub all around.
4400 - Submersive HPs
6000 - Cap S2's (A lot of money, but wow this must be incredible!)

In the coming months I'd like to experiment a bit with some DIY to see what type of value I can pull together.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 8/24/12 at 12:18pm

Sure it does. Headroom is headroom. It never goes away or is diminished by EQ. Desertdome is on the right path. More headroom is better, everywhere full bandwidth. Also note that very very few subwoofers will have a flat response shape at maximum output. If they are they will be bass reflex and / or extremely limited to maintain that shape which limits ultimate headroom and output usually in the upper bass range. Sure an Empire may be out of headroom at 102dB at 20Hz so that any further increases in 20Hz level are compressed. There is still a ton of headroom above 40Hz which means that if the signal contains little content below 40Hz then the Empire will accurately track the dynamics to much higher levels. This is a good not a bad attribute. Not every signal contains a 20Hz signal sitting there at full power. Signals ARE complex. Sure the Empire and another subwoofer may have similar outputs at 20-25Hz but if it has an extra 10dB of headroom an octave on up the scale and past it is going to more accurately track the dynamics that occur up in that particular range if the other sub is out of headroom despite the fact that both hit their limits and compress near 20Hz at about the same time. My own preference is the least amount of dynamic limiting or squashing as possible full bandwidth. So all things similar between two subs with similar headroom in the deep bass but disimilar headroom in the upper bass I will take the subwoofer with what would seem like an excess of headroom in the upper bass personally.
Edited by Ricci - 8/22/12 at 10:14am

FYI, the crossover point between where the 18.0 and 18.3(in lowest tune) have equal output is closer to 12~13hz, then yes the 18.0 will have more below that. However in most reasonable sized rooms even the 18.0 wont go much below that with useful output anyway, unless you have multiples. From 14-25hz the 18.3 has 6db more output than the 18.0(equal to two).

Archaea you are mixing in some other issues. Basic low volume frequency response is a separate matter from what is being discussed by desertdome and myself which is dynamic tracking capability. This is probably where the disconnect is.

In your example you say...

"If you are setting them up to the same SPL level and one is flat across the bandwidth - lets call this one Sub1, and one is hitting that same SPL level only at 70hz on up, lets call this one the Epik Empire. Assuming the two subs are spl matched - sub 1 is obviously going to sound deeper."

Of course it will. Why anyone would ever make a comparison like this is beyond me though. Matched at 70Hz? I think that we can all agree that virtually every system and room is going to require EQ. Is there anyone here who is not using some form of signal shaping on their bass system to modify the response shape as delivered to the listening position? Does anyone have a different goal for their bass response shape in their system depending on what subwoofer you are using that day? Does anyone reading this actually do this? I know that I don't. Ideally I'm going for a smooth, flat response as deep in frequency as possible regardless of whether I'm using a single Bic sub or multiple DIY 18's. Provided that both subs have similar extension as in the scenario being discussed, I'm going to EQ both into basically the exact same shape in room regardless of whatever their original anechoic response shape is. At that point it becomes a matter of output capabilities, distortion and freedom from bad operational noises, ringing or resonances.

EQ can lower demands on the system as well as increase the demands on it. It does not change the amount of ultimate headroom available though. Each situation can be unique so you may end up with major response issues at 70Hz, or 40Hz, or 25Hz, or maybe all three, or perhaps none of those because you are a lucky SOB and have an amazing space with lots of treatments. Adding EQ does not change the headroom available but applying it will modify the signal and change the relationship of which frequency bands are requiring the most effort from the subwoofer and are closest to reaching their limits. It may not always be 20Hz that is the limiting factor in your room. Perhaps you have a large suckout at 32Hz and a large boost at 20Hz which after EQ requires heavier output from the sub at 32Hz than at 20Hz. Having more headroom available even if only over part of the bandwidth helps prevent compression and maintains dynamic tracking better. It sounds sharper and more powerful because it is actually capable of producing louder sounds. There is not just frequency response in a vacuum. You must consider how accurately the dynamics of the signal are tracked as well as other considerations.
Edited by Ricci - 8/22/12 at 11:25am

As Desertdome implied earlier, I've been posting about this for quite a long time, and it probably takes pictures and measurements to communicate the reality of the situation. In the past I wasn't in any rush to educate the competition, but this should be common knowledge and understanding at this point.

Let's look at the case of having 2 subwoofers EQ'd to the nearly identical outdoor response from 20-200Hz and the same roll off below 20Hz (say we insert a 4th order high pass), and one has 12dB additional potential output (headroom) above 40Hz but they both have the same output at 20Hz. Music is NOT equal energy at all frequencies, and the maximum output at 20Hz ONLY comes into play when the input signal requires that much output.

What's more, if the added headroom above 40Hz comes from EQ applied to pull down increased efficiency, the EQ'd subwoofer will in fact use less total amplifier power to produce the same complex signal that spans the entire subwoofer range. In the case of the subwoofer which has equal output at all frequencies above 20Hz, it can only produce that maximum SPL at 20Hz if no other spectral content is present. Add 3 other simultaneous components at higher frequencies and now your maximum possible at 20Hz just reduced by 6dB, as did the maximum of each individual component. If it takes less than 1/10th the power to produce components above 40Hz as in my example above, you can expect much closer to the full 20Hz maximum capability when producing the same signal.

All in all, the amplifier will be less prone to clipping, and when you want to rock out to a concert DVD you will immediately notice the difference in capability.

You could be right depending on the test tone. However, as Ricci said, who would ever want to make a comparison like this? You EQ first and then level match. The phrase "level matched" is an oxymoron with what you are suggesting. Also room gain and the room's effect on the frequency response makes it an invalid comparison.
You are lowing your SPL at 70Hz in relation 20 Hz, but you are not lowering your maximum SPL.
I think you might be confusing flattening the subs frequency response with flattening the content's frequency response. The content isn't flat and usually has peaks in the midbass much higher than the low bass for most movies.

Here is the Iron Man Jericho scene taken directly from digital. This is how it should look in your room if you have EQ'd your subs flat.



Here are the Epik and SVS maximum outputs (from data-bass.com):



If you have the sub EQ'd flat in the room you should get this with the SVS PB12:



If you have the sub EQ'd flat in the room you should get this with the Empire:



You can see that the Empire has more headroom available while still keeping a flat frequency response! In other words, the response shape of the signal has not yet changed yet you can play louder.

What happens if you raise the volume even more with the Empire? The area between 27 and 33 Hz will experience compression which you might not even notice. However, you will now be now playing the Iron Man Jericho scene 10 db higher than the SVS and smiling to yourself at how great it sounds.



Edit: Whoops, I left the high pass filter on in my DSP when running the digital signal through Blue Cat FreqAnalystPro. Iron Man doesn't actually rolloff at 15 Hz like that.
Edited by desertdome - 8/22/12 at 1:59pm

If you look back at the Subfest 2011 thread you can see the in room frequency response of sealed subs like the Submersive and CHT 18.2. With room gain the frequency response comes up on the bottom end and even without EQ the subs can be level matched a little more closely than in your example. I understand what you are saying, but your example was using a close mic or anechoic measurement (I think) and making conclusions. The in room measurement in most rooms will have 20 Hz of the Empire much higher/closer in relation to 70 Hz than the raw response chart. I thought you (or maybe it was Carp) noticed a difference due to the rotation of the subs in the room while keeping the same location. With a dual driver sub like the Empire it could sound different depending on its rotation.

One thing I noticed when going from my Hsu VTF 2 MK 3 to more powerful subwoofers is at first the Hsu seemed to have more output down low. I later realized it was distortion and the cleaner output at 20 Hz had less "sound" to it. The other subs actually had more output per REW but it was cleaner and initially was less noticeable.

Who has friends outside of avsforum? We're all here because we have no friends!

I'm currently evaluating a PB12+ versus an FV15HP (as you know Shady from AH forums), and I can think of several reasons why I'd favor the SVS. Yes, the Rythmik clearly has a performance advantage, but raw SPL isn't everything.

1. The base vinyl finish on the Rythmik vs the real wood/piano black of the SVS. Yeah, you can spend an extra $215 to get the piano black, but then you're losing a lot of what makes the Rythmik a bargain.

2. Frankly, their products don't seem to have the spit-polish treatment. Their 1 port/12Hz tune seems a bit half baked since per Ricci's comments at data-bass, its prone to significant port noise. Shouldn't be a big surprise since it's getting knocked down to a single 3" port. Further, quotes like this from their website aren't inspiring me with confidence in their product.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/selection_guide.html
Rather disappointing since I can ride my PC12-NSD like a rented mule without hint of misbehavior.

3. As you mentioned, the 5 year warranty on the whole shebang versus 5 years on the driver and 2 years on the electronics. Kind of important given the previous point.

I've got a couple months before I really have to come to a decision, but for me at least, it isn't as simple as "well, the Rythmik has more SPLs so it wins!"

I don't know if the SVS has thermal protection, it doesn't say anywhere on its site that it does. It is protected from output levels that bring higher levels of distortion and protected from bottoming out thanks to the DSP, but if it doesn't have thermal sensors it won't have protection from over-heating.

Presumably it has some sort of built in protection in case some one decides they should test their subwoofer at full power for a couple hours in the middle of Death Valley on a 130 degree day, not that I have big plans on that, nor am I terribly concerned about it with an SVS given my experience with them (the Sledge amp in my PC12 runs quite cool). But under anything approaching normal usage, it just seems like it shouldn't be a concern for any subwoofer manufacturer. We're not talking about receiver manufacturers here where their product could get mated with something they are wholly unsuited to drive. A sub manufacturer knows exactly what load the amplifier is going to be driving and what they'll expect out of the amplifier to achieve desired output. After that, it's just a matter of having enough heat sinking to get the job done. It's not rocket science, it's about not cutting corners.

Frankly with that quote from Rythmik, combined with the apparent cheap build quality of the amplifier itself versus even the amplifier on my PC12-NSD, let alone the amplifier on the PB12+, and the 2 year warranty versus 5, its making me question how great a value Rythmik really is.

Hey man...You must level match after EQing or your levels will be completely off. If you level match the mains with the sub and then EQ the heck out of it your overall level balance will be completely skewed after that. I thought this was just common knowledge actually. The loudest peak in your response will greatly dominate the SPL reading so once that is cut back to be more in line with the other frequencies your overall SPL level will drop off considerably. You must readjust the levels to get the balance back. I usually end up checking the level balance 3 times. Once at the outset to get in the ball park, measure, EQ, adjust levels again after EQ, measure, further tweak EQ again with the adjusted levels, and adjust final levels again, re-measure again. Done. This is manually using the EQ. If you are using Audyssey or other auto EQ schemes just make sure that you chack and readjust the levels after the measurements are made and auto EQ is applied. I know that the auto EQ routines built into recievers are supposed to do this but typically I find them to be somewhat off. YMMV. Can't hurt to check what they are doing if you have measurement capabilities.



Ok. One more visualization. Look at the graph above. The blue line can be EQ'd into the same shape as the purple line and it will maintain this same shape just as well and up to the same output levels as the purple sub is capable of. However there will be a lot of headroom left over everywhere outside of the 20Hz area. What this means and what Aridhalfspherecover is showing on his last charts is that if a sound comes along that demands more output than the flat purple line can provide the blue line sub will have the ability to track those increased dynamics and signals better everywhere except at 20Hz directly. Meanwhile the purple sub is out of gas.

We do not listen to flat frequency response. The actual signals present in what we listen to are infinitely varied and all over the map and really have nothing to do with the signal used to measure a flat frequency response measurement. A flat response measurement shows that the system is capable of producing each individual note with equal intensity to the listener so that none are accentuated more than others. This is the ideal. If the response shape starts to change as parts of the frequency range compress due to running out of system headroom, at 20Hz for example, so that the signal is now being reproduced where some portions of it have a different spectral weighting than contained in the original signal, that is a distortion of it. Not ideal. However consider the above scenario of the purple and blue subs. The purple will maintain equal weighting of the frequency ranges no matter what, however since its total headroom is much lower using the same signal that would compress the blue sub at 20Hz will cause the purple sub to compress the entire signal instead of just the 20Hz content. This is also a distortion of the original. So you have the purple sub maintaining perfect spectral balance of the signal but compressing everything and not tracking the dynamics. Or the blue sub tilting the spectral weighting as it compresses a portion of the signal but maintains much better dynamic tracking. Both are distortions. I typically would prefer the behavior of the blue sub in this case since it results in greater dynamic capabilities. Especially once you consider that 20Hz at high level is very often not going to be a component in the signals run into the sub. Factor in the huge acoustic effects of the space that the sub will be operating in (requiring EQ manipulation to get back to a flat response) and the flat outdoor response while a desirable characteristic is only one attribute among many. Other response shapes may not look as nice but provided that the headroom and other characteristics are there it can be made to work, but may require a little more effort to get it there. (Alah DTS-10)
Edited by Ricci - 8/23/12 at 9:07am

^^^ Does this apply even if you do a FR sweep afterwards? My levels seem to be pretty matched after running Audyssey according to REW.