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The Subwoofer Recommendation by Pricepoint Thread. - Page 3

post #61 of 299
Yes that is exactly what I mean, measure the levels again afterward just to make sure. If the levels are fine no problem. At least you know for sure. For me it is usually off a few dB. YMMV.
post #62 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

...The blue line can be EQ'd into the same shape as the purple line and it will maintain this same shape just as well and up to the same output levels as the purple sub is capable of. ...

Are you referring to the indigo line vs the blue line?
post #63 of 299
Thread Starter 
I understand every single thing you said in your last post Josh ---

I think what I'm failing to communicate in my devil's advocate role is that even if you have more dyamic SPL capability --- you loose frequency response accuracy to the original source as soon as you pass that threshold of 102db at 20hz on the Epik Empire for anything that requires greater than 102dB at 20hz from the source material. Sure you have 22dB left of dynamic headroom, but that headroom comes at the expense of frequency response accuracy. Because that 22dB of headroom is only available increasingly up to 125hz -- not anywhere near 20hz.

If you want the extra SPL it is at the expense of accurate flat frequency response --- that's a choice -- that's all I'm trying to say. Some may not want that choice.

When the SVS PB12-NSD caps out at max spl - won't it retain a more flat frequency response as it nears the limits? All I'm saying is some may prefer that. It's sort of capping the subwoofer volume more at an ideal frequency response...

how to explain...???

It's a dumb example but Black Eyed Peas Boom Boom Pow song was actually the song that oppened my eyes to a clear audible definitive example of a flat frequency response.

On most every sub I've ever heard that song -- as heard almost anywhere you go the boom boom pow bass notes (distinct different frequency bass notes) sound different volume levels relative to each other. On one system you might have a boom BOOM POW On another system you might have a boom BOOM pow, a third may be boom boom POW. When you have a flat frequency response and listen to this song all the bass notes (despite being at very different frequencies sound the same volume). When you turn off your EQ and listen to the same song some of the bass notes are very emphasized compared to the others. It's a good example of how frquency response can effect music listening.

Sure the Epik Empire would get louder on that song, but the emphasis would be weighted towards the upper bass notes. It would gradually happen as you increased the volume beyond the threshold of each's notes max capability on something like the Epik Empire. After knowing/hearing what it's supposed to sound like (with even spl on each bass note) it would sound weird on the Epik as you approaced the Epik's limits. The SVS PB-12 NSD would maintain a more even spl weighting, more faithful to the original source frequency response/sound on each note as you neared it's (lesser overall) limits.

Granted if you kept the Epik at the same overal volume (less 1 dB) you'd have the same experience, but who doesn't turn their subs up until they hit the limits. wink.gif The true limits of the SVS just would be a bit more accurate to the source material yes? (at admitedly much less volume)

Probably a terrible example but it's the best I have to illustrate my thoughts.


It be a much easier argument if the $800 pb-nsd put out 110db at 20hz. Would you rather have 110 to 116db across the spectrum from 20hz to 125hz or 102 to 124db range across that same spectrum. That's more an example of what would illustrate the point.


Another example of choosing a flat frequency response out of the box is a specific usecase where there was no eq available and the sub was used nearfield or in a small room. I recently purchased a Jamo 650 Sub precisely because of its unusually flat frequency response for the sale pricepoint. I have a cheap onkyo receiver upstairs with no Audyssey nor other EQ functionality for use in a small living room. The Jamo will likely meet my specific needs more than the Epik Legend because EQ is unavailable to me on that system without spending addiitional dollars. I trust the Jamo's more native flat frequency response to likely end up being more accurate in my room. (admitedly nulls and modes may not cooperate - but i'll figure that out with the omnimic) I don't need the extra SPL the Epik Legend would offer, and so I'll choose the flatter frequency response because I lack the ability to EQ the top off the Legend's design choice for this secondary system. Someone who is using the sub as a computer based subwoofer and doesn't have something like jriver for custom tailored EQ- might make a similar choice. If you don't apply EQ to a subwoofer design like the Epik, you are STILL going to end up with a non flat, (non accurate to source) response even at low volumes, because of the natural non eq'ed frequency response out of the box - with no eq applied.
Edited by Archaea - 8/24/12 at 8:53am
post #64 of 299
Quote:
I understand every single thing you said in your last post Josh ---

I think what I'm failing to communicate in my devil's advocate role is that even if you have more dyamic SPL capability --- you loose frequency response accuracy to the original source as soon as you pass that threshold of 102db at 20hz on the Epik Empire for anything that requires greater than 102dB at 20hz from the source material. Sure you have 22dB left of dynamic headroom, but that headroom comes at the expense of frequency response accuracy. Because that 22dB of headroom is only available increasingly up to 125hz -- not anywhere near 20hz.

If you want the extra SPL it is at the expense of accurate flat frequency response --- that's a choice -- that's all I'm trying to say. Some may not want that choice.

When the SVS PB12-NSD caps out at max spl - won't it retain a more flat frequency response as it nears the limits? All I'm saying is some may prefer that. It's sort of capping the subwoofer volume more at an ideal frequency response...

how to explain...???

That's bandwidth linearity as popularized by Tom Nousaine among others.
post #65 of 299
Thread Starter 
oh and yes of course I know to recalibrate SPL after EQ! and do so personally!


I still maintain that most people on this big green earth with subwoofers don't EQ before arbitrarily picking SPL. Heck there are examples on this very enthusiast forum CONSTANTLY -- http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425942/most-output-15-25hz-for-1500/0_20

Most folk set gain/spl with the subs naked response. There is a subwoofer meet coming up october 20 at Gorilla83's house. There is a super good lineup of about 15 subs --- perhaps a record for these types of get togethers and they don't plan to EQ (as far as I know) to keep things running quickly. They will set SPL using the subs native response, and will likewise find that the Epik type subs with the rising frequency response sound like they don't extend as deep. wink.gif Just as they would if they EQ'ed the sub and then turned it up beyond 102dB at 20hz. trying to reach max volumes in their five star bass movie clip demos. I hope to be one of those yahoos at this upcoming event. biggrin.gif

However on the SVS type subs they just might find that they sound deep without EQ and would still sound deep with EQ -- just discover that the SVS type subs don't get as loud.


two sides to the coin IMO...
Edited by Archaea - 8/23/12 at 6:40pm
post #66 of 299
If customer service has any weighting at all;
Then for under $1500.00, you MUST consider SVS !!
post #67 of 299
Thread Starter 
We need more lists.

I'm going to link lists in the first post to encourage them. Several members have pm'ed me and said they agreed it'd be fun to see what other frequent posting members listed by pricepoint. So far there's only been one other list. Thank you Gorilla83 for playing along.
post #68 of 299
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacfan4321 View Post

According to the Monoprice website, the 12" is discontinued?

Informative first post. You've been lurking all these years only to have your first post comment about monoprice $100 subwoofers. biggrin.gif

Are you hot under the collar about this? What made you finally join the forum to point that out? lol I mean you no harm -- your first post just strikes me as funny tonight for some reason.

At any rate. I'll update the first post with such -- it's good to know. That's a shame because the reviews I read stated that these $89 subs were more than you'd expect for the price.

I can't say that about my Pioneer SW-8 at ($80 shipped). It was less than I expected for the price. I have no other recommendations below $100.
post #69 of 299
You can replace the FV12 for the Epik Legend for $499.. Also, I find it very hard to believe a 12" ported sub,the svs pb12-nsd is gonna hang around a sub with dual 15's even sealed,the Empire. How is that even possible? I can see it going head to head with a legend,but an Empire,no freakin way. And I also think svs subs are over priced now. Sorry ,I'll take the Empire!
post #70 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post

You can replace the FV12 for the Epik Legend for $499.. Also, I find it very hard to believe a 12" ported sub,the svs pb12-nsd is gonna hang around a sub with dual 15's even sealed,the Empire. How is that even possible? I can see it going head to head with a legend,but an Empire,no freakin way. And I also think svs subs are over priced now. Sorry ,I'll take the Empire!

Its possible that the PB-12 can hang with the Empire but only at the tuning point of the ported sub. Porting is a real efficient way of gaining extra SPL, especially at the resonant frequencies of the port. This is why the PB-12 can have more output than the Empire at 20 hz- that is the port talking. At every other frequency though, the Empire will greatly surpass the PB12.
post #71 of 299
Archaea-

Remember that any normal room will bend and twist the frequency response of whatever sub you place in it. So that mostly eliminates the PB12's advantage of a flat FR. Any FR dips caused by the room is going to affect the PB12 more because it brings its entire baseline down that much more. Even if, for whatever reason, you wouldn't want the extra headroom beyond a flat FR, the only way they would become equal performers after the room influence is either no dips whatsoever occur or the largest dip happens at 20 hz where they are equal.
post #72 of 299
Sorry that I don’t have a full list, but for “Price no object”, I am surprised that no one has listed the rotary subwoofer.
post #73 of 299
Another consideration is location. I live in Canada; when shopping for my first real sub ($500-1000 range) I was depressed to see very high shipping fees (sometimes upwards of $200 including duty and taxes), driving up the cost of Epik, Hsu and other subs to very uncomfortable levels. In Canada you can also take delivery of your US purchase at a border mail service such as a Kinek point, but in my case, the day-long trip will annihilate any saving. That is, until I found that SVS had a Canadian distributor (Sonicboomaudio.com) with the same low prices as svsound.com (and sometimes even less) and very affordable shipping rates.

Thus in Canada, and probably everywhere outside of the US, including UK, Australia, etc., SVS products take the crown where they have local distributors that offer great price -- and a warranty!. The only Canadian ID sub maker I know is Funk Audio but alas my small living room, my wallet and I are not ready yet to take advantage of that.
post #74 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Another consideration is location. I live in Canada; when shopping for my first real sub ($500-1000 range) I was depressed to see very high shipping fees (sometimes upwards of $200 including duty and taxes), driving up the cost of Epik, Hsu and other subs to very uncomfortable levels. In Canada you can also take delivery of your US purchase at a border mail service such as a Kinek point, but in my case, the day-long trip will annihilate any saving. That is, until I found that SVS had a Canadian distributor (Sonicboomaudio.com) with the same low prices as svsound.com (and sometimes even less) and very affordable shipping rates.
Thus in Canada, and probably everywhere outside of the US, including UK, Australia, etc., SVS products take the crown where they have local distributors that offer great price -- and a warranty!. The only Canadian ID sub maker I know is Funk Audio but alas my small living room, my wallet and I are not ready yet to take advantage of that.

I have to agree that shipping needs to be factored in. I live in Hawaii and it's $250-$400 in shipping for any of the popular ID subs, each way, should it need to be returned or if you're not satisfied. Tough pill to swallow.
post #75 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Another consideration is location. I live in Canada; when shopping for my first real sub ($500-1000 range) I was depressed to see very high shipping fees (sometimes upwards of $200 including duty and taxes), driving up the cost of Epik, Hsu and other subs to very uncomfortable levels. In Canada you can also take delivery of your US purchase at a border mail service such as a Kinek point, but in my case, the day-long trip will annihilate any saving. That is, until I found that SVS had a Canadian distributor (Sonicboomaudio.com) with the same low prices as svsound.com (and sometimes even less) and very affordable shipping rates.

Thus in Canada, and probably everywhere outside of the US, including UK, Australia, etc., SVS products take the crown where they have local distributors that offer great price -- and a warranty!. The only Canadian ID sub maker I know is Funk Audio but alas my small living room, my wallet and I are not ready yet to take advantage of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Another consideration is location. I live in Canada; when shopping for my first real sub ($500-1000 range) I was depressed to see very high shipping fees (sometimes upwards of $200 including duty and taxes), driving up the cost of Epik, Hsu and other subs to very uncomfortable levels. In Canada you can also take delivery of your US purchase at a border mail service such as a Kinek point, but in my case, the day-long trip will annihilate any saving. That is, until I found that SVS had a Canadian distributor (Sonicboomaudio.com) with the same low prices as svsound.com (and sometimes even less) and very affordable shipping rates.
Thus in Canada, and probably everywhere outside of the US, including UK, Australia, etc., SVS products take the crown where they have local distributors that offer great price -- and a warranty!. The only Canadian ID sub maker I know is Funk Audio but alas my small living room, my wallet and I are not ready yet to take advantage of that.

I have to agree that shipping needs to be factored in. I live in Hawaii and it's $250-$400 in shipping for any of the popular ID subs, each way, should it need to be returned or if you're not satisfied. Tough pill to swallow.

But that's the very advantage of being an ID sub, to eliminate extra middlemen like distributors. Being in the shipping business, particularly international, I can assure you there is no such thing as free shipping (or no duties/taxes)....it's marketing speak for we'll absorb that cost to project a particular price point. Once you go traditional distribution costs will generally need to rise (or you cut back on components, which SVS under their fairly new ownership seems to have done with their bookshelves, at least from what I can tell from my MBS02s compared to the previous model). My Epik Empire shipping was 140 or so and I'm in the US....total cost of the Empire still beats heck out of B&M offerings around here (and IMHO any other ID offering at that price point). Epik now uses another provider (Fedex ground) as their previous one abandoned the US domestic market (Schenker) but crossing the border is a different freight world...
post #76 of 299
I'll give this a shot...

$100 - Dayton SUB-1200
$200 - BIC F12
$300 - Klipsh RW-12D / Energy S10.3
$500 - Simply Sound Audio Rumba 12
$600 - XTZ W12.16 / SVS SB12-NSD
$700 - PowerSound Audio XS15 {this is purely speculation right now because I've only unboxed mine - I haven't listened to it yet}
$800 - Epik Empire
$900 - Rythmik F12
$1,000 - Rythmik F15
$1,100 - HSU ULS-15
$2,300 - Captivator S
Price no object? - Paradigm SUB 2

I didn't really labor excessively over my list -- I just went with the best ones that sprang immediately to mind -- so I reserve the right to make future changes. wink.gif
post #77 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I'll give this a shot...
$100 - Dayton SUB-1200
$200 - BIC F12
$300 - Klipsh RW-12D / Energy S10.3
$500 - Simply Sound Audio Rumba 12
$600 - XTZ W12.16 / SVS SB12-NSD
$700 - PowerSound Audio XS15 {this is purely speculation right now because I've only unboxed mine - I haven't listened to it yet}
$800 - Epik Empire
$900 - Rythmik F12
$1,000 - Rythmik F15
$1,100 - HSU ULS-15
$2,300 - Captivator S
Price no object? - Paradigm SUB 2
I didn't really labor excessively over my list -- I just went with the best ones that sprang immediately to mind -- so I reserve the right to make future changes. wink.gif

Jim - Are you a sealed sub fan? I couldn't tell. tongue.gif I'd really like to hear the XS15! Would be cool if you wind up bringing it to the meet to compare to the Hsu ULS and maybe even the Empires? We should set them up for a bit with my Maggie MMGs. biggrin.gif
post #78 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Jim - Are you a sealed sub fan? I couldn't tell. tongue.gif

I do mask it well, don't I? wink.gif Detail, clarity and dynamics have always been first and foremost with me. My experience has been that acoustic suspension provides it for me. That thought pattern might change on October 20th though, if something exceptional in the bass reflex arena crosses my path.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I'd really like to hear the XS15! Would be cool if you wind up bringing it to the meet to compare to the Hsu ULS and maybe even the Empires? We should set them up for a bit with my Maggie MMGs. biggrin.gif

It's funny you should mention that, because I was thinking the same thing...
post #79 of 299
I think we should indicate average shipping cost on these. For example, the lower ones are often free shipping, but the upper ones can be 300+ in shipping.
post #80 of 299
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input Jim -- your list link is added to the first post.


I don't mind if you change your lists -- just edit the same post and the link from the first post will still work.


As to figuring out shipping. Impossible. How could I take into account shipping on every sub to every area? My list is ballpark price range recommendations, and that's all any of these lists can be.
post #81 of 299
Well, you're right about not being able to show all of the possible combinations. It might be nice to show which ones have free shipping... at least (U.S. continental) or something.

Maybe this deserves a whole thread dedicated to shipping costs. Another day perhaps....
post #82 of 299
price is no object -
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1255659/mccauley-subwoofer-m421-spl-killer-with-155db-peak
or some McCauley thing

but I am thinking about building a Fitzmaurice horn sub.

from many studies I have read, 2 is better than one, and 4 is better than 2.
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/multiple-subwoofer-setup-calibration-1

I wonder if that means that 4 $100 monoprice subs would be much better than one $400 sub?
post #83 of 299
Thread Starter 
not a chance - eyeguy1

The monoprice subwoofers will never dig below 30hz cleanly even with a wall full of them. To work the multiples angle you need a subwoofer capable of the frequency response range you want to utilize. You can only stack towards a positive gain what the subs can actually reproduce in singles.

That'd be quite the distortion number at frequencies below port tune on a wall full of monoprice subwoofers. tongue.gif
post #84 of 299
An Audio Engineer/Designer’s Point of View:
After a lifetime of designing, testing, & implementing Home Theater and Musical Systems I have found some consistent performance from certain models. However there are THREE principles incorporated in my picks. If these principles mean nothing to you then move on.

First, musicality for accurate music reproduction is far more important than the “boom, crackle, pop” of Home Theater. Quality over quantity. And the number one performance criterion in a subwoofer is SPEED, along with low distortion. Second, it is ALWAYS better to have multiple good quality subs (at least two in Stereo mode) scattered around the room as opposed to one big one since this will smooth out response throughout the room. Finally two Subs in STEREO Mode improve the entire audio image significantly over one Sub (or two in Dual Mono Mode). This is due to the differences in Phase & Time information present within the stereo (or multichannel) recording rather than directionality. I know there are people who believe that since frequencies below 80Hz are non-directional, it is non-consequential to imaging. I can assure you that a lifetime of low frequency research has proven that Stereo Sub arrangements images better than a single, dual or multiple mono setup. So going up in price, buying 2 or more Subs (in Discrete Channel Mode) is a better solution than buying one big one.

Pricepoints

$100 – A pair of MonoPrice 8248 subs in Stereo Mode
$200 – Pioneer SW-8MK2 - Newly redesigned for the 2012 line by Andrew Jones of KEF/Infinity fame
$300 – TWO Pioneer SW-8MK2
$400 – TWO Pioneer SW-8MK2s with better wires
$500 – TWO Outlaw Audio M8
$600 - TWO Outlaw Audio M8s with better wires
$700 – TWO HSU Research STF-2s
$800 – Velodyne DD- 10 from AudioGoN or eBay

$1,000 – TWO HSU Research VTF-2 MK 4
$1,333 – TWO HSU Research VTF-3 MK 4
$1,666 – TWO HSU Research VTF-15H
$2,000 – TWO Velodyne DD-10 from AudioGoN or eBay
$2,500 – TWO Velodyne DD-12 from AudioGoN or eBay
$3,000 – TWO Velodyne DD-15 from AudioGoN or eBay

Price no object?? – Paradigm's new Reference Signature – SUB 2 – The best sub I have ever heard or more accurately, experienced, since most of what it does is below human hearing threshold. I have measured/verified Paradigm’s claim of 112 dB at 10 Hz with astonishingly little distortion. With excellent output to 7Hz! A pair of these in Stereo Configuration is guaranteed to displace the foundation of your home and/or for your neighbors to sue you for giving them a heart attack. (Will need to a 240 Volt line to take advantage of the 9,000 watts output capability of the internal amp.)
post #85 of 299
Thread Starter 
Ranakabir,

I hope the SW-8 MKII is significantly better than the SW-8 I own. cool.gif

Otherwise I disagree with your recommendations. wink.gif

No matter...I'm not here to criticize anyone's recommendations, only organize them for easy sharing! Added your recommendations to first post.


P.S. If you haven't heard "one big one" by the name of a Submersive HP or a JTR Captivator -- I'd recommend it! smile.gif

I would like to hear the sub2 for sure.
Edited by Archaea - 8/24/12 at 5:27pm
post #86 of 299
I have an Aerial Acoustic SW-12 that has been in my system for many years. A great sub and built like a tank. I have a complete Aerial surround with the 10-T's in front and have been happy with the system for 10 years. With a Bryston five channel amp and processor it has been a great system that has lasted and been a great value. I recently had a channel go out on the amp I was able to pull the one channel and send it back for repair under the 20 year warranty. Bryston has been great to work with and cannot say enough good things about their service.
post #87 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by RanaKabir View Post

An Audio Engineer/Designer’s Point of View:
After a lifetime of designing, testing, & implementing Home Theater and Musical Systems I have found some consistent performance from certain models. However there are THREE principles incorporated in my picks. If these principles mean nothing to you then move on.
First, musicality for accurate music reproduction is far more important than the “boom, crackle, pop” of Home Theater. Quality over quantity. And the number one performance criterion in a subwoofer is SPEED, along with low distortion. Second, it is ALWAYS better to have multiple good quality subs (at least two in Stereo mode) scattered around the room as opposed to one big one since this will smooth out response throughout the room. Finally two Subs in STEREO Mode improve the entire audio image significantly over one Sub (or two in Dual Mono Mode). This is due to the differences in Phase & Time information present within the stereo (or multichannel) recording rather than directionality. I know there are people who believe that since frequencies below 80Hz are non-directional, it is non-consequential to imaging. I can assure you that a lifetime of low frequency research has proven that Stereo Sub arrangements images better than a single, dual or multiple mono setup. So going up in price, buying 2 or more Subs (in Discrete Channel Mode) is a better solution than buying one big one.
Pricepoints
$100 – A pair of MonoPrice 8248 subs in Stereo Mode
$200 – Pioneer SW-8MK2 - Newly redesigned for the 2012 line by Andrew Jones of KEF/Infinity fame
$300 – TWO Pioneer SW-8MK2
$400 – TWO Pioneer SW-8MK2s with better wires
$500 – TWO Outlaw Audio M8
$600 - TWO Outlaw Audio M8s with better wires
$700 – TWO HSU Research STF-2s
$800 – Velodyne DD- 10 from AudioGoN or eBay

$1,000 – TWO HSU Research VTF-2 MK 4
$1,333 – TWO HSU Research VTF-3 MK 4
$1,666 – TWO HSU Research VTF-15H
$2,000 – TWO Velodyne DD-10 from AudioGoN or eBay
$2,500 – TWO Velodyne DD-12 from AudioGoN or eBay
$3,000 – TWO Velodyne DD-15 from AudioGoN or eBay

Price no object?? – Paradigm's new Reference Signature – SUB 2 – The best sub I have ever heard or more accurately, experienced, since most of what it does is below human hearing threshold. I have measured/verified Paradigm’s claim of 112 dB at 10 Hz with astonishingly little distortion. With excellent output to 7Hz! A pair of these in Stereo Configuration is guaranteed to displace the foundation of your home and/or for your neighbors to sue you for giving them a heart attack. (Will need to a 240 Volt line to take advantage of the 9,000 watts output capability of the internal amp.)

You lose some credibility when you start mentioning wires making a difference. And stereo subs really only can work if the subs are located next to or under the mains AND you can find the rare recording that does not sum the bass signal.
post #88 of 299
Heh, this thread went a bit sideways, didn't it?

I'm getting ready to set up a small movie-viewing room, and my subwoofer choice is still up in the air. I'm hoping to spend around $500 on subwoofer(s). I was thinking that a pair of BIC F12s would be excellent, but I don't see anyone recommending that in the $400-500 price range. For those of you who have recommended single subs in that price range, would you prefer that single single sub for movie viewing over a pair of F12s, or over a pair of anything else that adds up to roughly the same price? I want the most theater-authentic sound I can get for that price. In my living room, I have a BIC V1020 that I'm quite happy with, but I want to go a step beyond that for my movie room. Thoughts, advice?
post #89 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by RanaKabir View Post


Price no object?? – Paradigm's new Reference Signature – SUB 2 – The best sub I have ever heard or more accurately, experienced, since most of what it does is below human hearing threshold. I have measured/verified Paradigm’s claim of 112 dB at 10 Hz with astonishingly little distortion. With excellent output to 7Hz! A pair of these in Stereo Configuration is guaranteed to displace the foundation of your home and/or for your neighbors to sue you for giving them a heart attack. (Will need to a 240 Volt line to take advantage of the 9,000 watts output capability of the internal amp.)

The numbers you claim to have produced (112db at 10hz) are meaningless without knowing the exact test parameters. While the SUB is unquestionably a great sub, it cannot come anywhere close to producing 112db at 10hz when measured with standardized test methods. It's actual maximum distortion limited output numbers are 94.7 db at 10hz measured at ground-plane from 2m. This means it would take eight (!) SUB 2s to produce 112db.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=69&mset=75

post #90 of 299
Will this qualify for price no object? http://www.kreiselsound.com/
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