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Salk vs Tekton Pendragon - Page 3

post #61 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensctt View Post

Did you see this review/discussion?
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1341349143&&&/Zu-Omen-Defs-vs-Tekton-Pendragons

Just read it and all the posts afterwords, the guy said the upgrade was well worthmade it even better, Andrew has not heard the opendragons with the upgrade capacitors, and i am sure its more geard to music hence why he told me not really needed


"I did get the upgraded crossovers for the Pendragons and have just passed the 300 hour mark on them. A very worthwhile upgrade. I initially upgraded one speaker so I could compare with the stock version. The upgraded one was much more defined in the top end, airier, and overall gives a cleaner view of the music. It definitely improves the vocal presentation and brings more emotion to the music"

quote from the person who purchased and upgraded the crossovers and who reviewd the pendragons.

Erics blog link has pictures of customer speakers as well, and says he can design anything,, so far all the reviews say there an amazing speaker, the last review i posted has alot of goo information on the design of the speaker on why their priced so low

link to the drivers used in the pendragons
http://www.eminence.com/pro-audio/

one thing to remember... you can always find someone who will praise something they spent money on... wink.gif

hint: if you read stuff like "brings more emotion to the music" being attributed to a cap upgrade (really? $750 for caps?), imo/ime, you can safely discard that "feedback"...
post #62 of 114
Something ain't stirring the Kool-Aid...
post #63 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

if i coul get a deal on the 802D from B&W i would still be spending at least $2000 to $3000 more on those speakers even with my hook up.

Have you heard the 802D's?
post #64 of 114
This thread is very interesting.

Some great information, with some great comments and funny self observations/opinions built in.

Like Randy said, and I agree, if the company is not willing to share measurement information, I think that is a bit of a red flag. They may still sound good, but it makes you wonder what kind of objective engineering was put into the product.
post #65 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Have you heard the 802D's?

Yes i did and i loved them too sweet sounding speakers, ut the 800's wow but i hear alot that you get fatigue from long listening periods with the 800 and the 802D. we will see what i end up with i wish someone here in toronto had the pendragons for me too listen too.

If i custom the pendragons (vaneers, crossovers etc.) they do not except returns, and if i order ed the regular pendragons and do not like them for some reason theres a %15 restocking fee, so i have to see what i can do maybe find someone in buffalo etc..
post #66 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

This thread is very interesting.
Some great information, with some great comments and funny self observations/opinions built in.
Like Randy said, and I agree, if the company is not willing to share measurement information, I think that is a bit of a red flag. They may still sound good, but it makes you wonder what kind of objective engineering was put into the product.

Actually there is measure for the 10inch drivers they use, apprently Zu audio and the pendragons share the same drivers for mst speakers, there cut from the same cloth, Eric use to work at zu audio and won wards there, its alkl in the review,

Back to measurements, if you go to the blog and scan down there are measurements that sterephile published for one of the zu speakers, if you want some measurements there are some, since they share the same driver but apparently Eric made changes in his design so he can by pass the problems. its in the reviews from the parttime audio phile he does mention it there too.

I am not that good at reading measurements, still learning, i go based on what i hear at the audition etc... Go to tektons site clinbk on blog there is actually som einteresting stuff there.

But i agreee this thread is very interesting
post #67 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

Actually there is measure for the 10inch drivers they use, apprently Zu audio and the pendragons share the same drivers for mst speakers, there cut from the same cloth, Eric use to work at zu audio and won wards there, its alkl in the review,
Back to measurements, if you go to the blog and scan down there are measurements that sterephile published for one of the zu speakers, if you want some measurements there are some, since they share the same driver but apparently Eric made changes in his design so he can by pass the problems. its in the reviews from the parttime audio phile he does mention it there too.
I am not that good at reading measurements, still learning, i go based on what i hear at the audition etc... Go to tektons site clinbk on blog there is actually som einteresting stuff there.
But i agreee this thread is very interesting
I mean measurements for the overall speaker...not just a component.

Two speakers with the same drivers does not mean they will sound or measure the same.
post #68 of 114
sign the non disclosure agrrementhe has lol
post #69 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

sign the non disclosure agrrementhe has lol
For measurements? That says enough for me.
post #70 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

For measurements? That says enough for me.
There's two ways to look at this I think, Curtis. Tekton might say something along the line that they're reluctant to publish measurements because the measurements can be misinterpreted and further don't tell you how the speaker sounds. Also, it may provide competitors with valuable information. An NDA is pretty draconian though.
The other way of viewing this is that an NDA prevents the person from discussing the as yet unknown measurements with other individuals. Consider for a moment the Zu speaker that was reviewed by Stereophile. Now, I did not think it was an especially favorable review. The measurements called into question published claims of sensitivity. The measurements also called into question how well the cabinetry was designed as well as a very quirky response in a number of areas. They did not suggest a high degree of competency other than perhaps the finish and once again proved the saying, Any idiot can design a loudspeaker and regrettably many do,
That's not to say that Zu or Tekton don't have their followers but then some people think Andrew Zimmern eats great food.
I don't know why the choice has somehow come down to Salk vs. Tekton, both of which you haven't heard. To my mind maybe a good approach would be to attend the RMAF if possible and get a chance to hear those as well as many others. But if one were hell bent on buying either of those two sight and ears unseen, Salk seems to be considerably more vetted than the Tekton.
post #71 of 114
interview with eric mentions why he went with eminence speakers

A Quick Q&A with Eric Alexander of Tekton Design

Questions by Steve Lefkowicz

PFO - Is Tekton an outgrowth or extension of some other business you are in? Is this now your full time, primary business? Or was it more an extension of audio as a hobby? How long have you at this?

EA - Tekton Design is my entire focus venture at the moment. I do this full-time (10-12 hours daily) and have done since 2005.

Here's a brief explanation from my eBay page: "My passion for audio and speaker building began at a very young age. My grandfather was a carpenter, and when I was 5 years old, he began offering me his wood scraps, along with a hammer and nails, for my experimentation. I got my first taste of electronics in the 6th grade, when my teacher at school let me put my creative energy into the exploration of all kinds of electronic gadgets. At that time, I also embarked on my music career, first learning to play the trumpet, and then transitioning to percussion instruments, which I still play today. My first official loudspeaker debut was at the age of 14, when I spent two solid days designing, building, and painting a pair of speakers for a neighborhood dance party. This was the same time that my hormones were kicking in, and so of course, my endeavors were mostly for impressing the girls. The bonus was the girls (and guys) were impressed, and the speakers really didn't sound half-bad! Obviously, speaker designing and building has been a life-long passion, and has turned into a great career for me."

I have had some type of audio related employment since 1986. I have worked for Kimber Kable, Diaural (based on my patents), Edge Audio (who became Aperion Audio), Soundtube Entertainment (the largest speaker manufacturer in Utah), and now Tekton Design. I have also contributed to many other significant engineering efforts as a consultant and have now have over 50 commercially available loudspeaker models to my credit. My 'Broadbeam' tweeter patent owned by SoundTube Entertainment has now likely sold into the $30 million range to date.

PFO - What was your inspiration for designing speakers? Other brands you admire, or was it more a case of not finding what you wanted in the market already?

EA - I knew I wanted to design audio gear as an early teenager. Live music and I love audio. I am also a past engine builder and I owned a dragster in my early 20's. I literally extrapolated the passion for pushing the envelope forward through motorsport into my audio career. This brief video somewhat explains current design philosophy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm6jHGQEmog

PFO - It seems you have two distinct lines, one based on full range drivers and open baffles, and one based on pro audio drivers and vented boxes. How do you differentiate the two lines? Are they for distinctly different tastes?

EA - Tekton started out selling full-range products. I'm now moving into the phase of offering products I have great faith and personal confidence in.

PFO - Looking specifically at the model Lore, I’m curious about your choice of the Eminence 10 inch driver. It is specified as a bass guitar driver, so how did you decide it was a good choice for high quality home audio in the first place? What led you in that direction?

EA - It was all based on need. I seek out the ideal transducer for my needs. In the past I had many transducers designed to my specs. Eminence has built custom parts for me in the past and I have confidence in their products. However, they are a pro audio manufacture so looks are the last thing on their radar—not too compatible with hi-fi regarding the stunning visuals.

PFO - Looking at retail prices, between the Eminence 10 inch driver and the Audax Gold tweeter, it would seem that almost half the retail price of the Lore is in just the drivers. The cabinets seem quite nicely made, too, so how do you keep your retail price where it is?

EA - You are correct. Over the years in the industry I learned what worked and what didn't work, what I needed to do insure how to be profitable and stay in production in the early phase of this venture.

PFO - All your speakers are very high efficiency. I’m guessing you are a fan of low powered tube amps? I’ve mostly been using a KT88 based amp with the Lore, which runs either 5-watts in triode or 15-watts in pentode mode. What are your favorite amps (or tubes) for your speakers?

EA - Actually, my favorite amps are massive wattage. You can never have too much power. However, I have a real soft spot and passion for tubes. So many of my guitar band mates were so passionate about tube amplification and I knew there must be something of substantial merit there. One of my favorite tube amplifiers is the Mesa Baron—long gone the way of the dodo bird now.

PFO - You seem to be flying under the radar a little bit. Any plans for increased presence in the market? Will you be attending Rocky Mountain Audio Fest or any other Hi-Fi shows in the future? Might we see you in California at T.H.E Show in Newport next summer?

EA - I cannot promise show attendance due to a young family. However, Yes! Tekton is planning big in the future. I have many things in the works here.
post #72 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Tekton might say something along the line that they're reluctant to publish measurements because the measurements can be misinterpreted and further don't tell you how the speaker sounds.

Totally agree. And not many even know what they are looking at if there was measurements posted. In the end its more important how the speaker sounds than what it measures in an anechoic chamber or simulated on a computer.

Anyone tell be what measurement to look for to tell me if a speaker will sound bright or brittle in my room? Or if the midbass/bass will sound boomy in my room? Measurements are valuable but I think theres just way too much emphasis on graphs making or breaking a company speaker. I've bought several speakers over the years that never had any graphs posted at all nor did I research to find any. Those turned out to be great speakers and I was very happy with them. Current speakers have no graphs posted anywhere publicly, and I just purchased another set of speaker from them cause they are fantastic.

The speakers I did buy that had graphs posted and some 3rd party rave reviews? Sold, got rid of them and it was best decision I've made.
post #73 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

For measurements? That says enough for me.
Curtis...If you would like to hear the Pendragons...I can arrange that.
I have to tell you Curtis ...I was very bias( not in a good way) in what I thought that speaker arrangement would sound like ........ but when I actually heard them..I was amazingly impressed.

Just my $.02
RayJr
post #74 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

There's two ways to look at this I think, Curtis. Tekton might say something along the line that they're reluctant to publish measurements because the measurements can be misinterpreted and further don't tell you how the speaker sounds. Also, it may provide competitors with valuable information. An NDA is pretty draconian though.
The other way of viewing this is that an NDA prevents the person from discussing the as yet unknown measurements with other individuals. Consider for a moment the Zu speaker that was reviewed by Stereophile. Now, I did not think it was an especially favorable review. The measurements called into question published claims of sensitivity. The measurements also called into question how well the cabinetry was designed as well as a very quirky response in a number of areas. They did not suggest a high degree of competency other than perhaps the finish and once again proved the saying, Any idiot can design a loudspeaker and regrettably many do,
That's not to say that Zu or Tekton don't have their followers but then some people think Andrew Zimmern eats great food.
I don't know why the choice has somehow come down to Salk vs. Tekton, both of which you haven't heard. To my mind maybe a good approach would be to attend the RMAF if possible and get a chance to hear those as well as many others. But if one were hell bent on buying either of those two sight and ears unseen, Salk seems to be considerably more vetted than the Tekton.
I definitely know the two or more ways it can be interpreted. smile.gif
post #75 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post

Curtis...If you would like to hear the Pendragons...I can arrange that.
I have to tell you Curtis ...I was very bias( not in a good way) in what I thought that speaker arrangement would sound like ........ but when I actually heard them..I was amazingly impressed.
Just my $.02
RayJr
OK Ray, where do I have to drive to? smile.gif

BTW...I never said the speakers would sound bad.

Other knowledgeable people in the thread have pointed out, in the least, interesting design choices. There are also some business model choices that I think are interesting, especially for an ID company, such as the restocking fee.
post #76 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

OK Ray, where do I have to drive to? smile.gif
BTW...I never said the speakers would sound bad.
Other knowledgeable people in the thread have pointed out, in the least, interesting design choices. There are also some business model choices that I think are interesting, especially for an ID company, such as the restocking fee.
Plus s/h to and from. Plus insurance. Plus additional fees if sent to Canada. I tell you, they've done a hell of a job carpet bombing the entire Internet getting the word out on the company.
post #77 of 114
I am biased as I just took Floyd Toole's three courses at CEDIA. He would not dispute that some speakers that measure well sound bad but not because of measurements but because there either weren't enough of them or they were wrong. He has found a very high correlation if enough measurements are done and of the right kind that they can predict with very good correlation of what a speaker will sound like in an average room that has had just minimal treatment but only above the transition frequency (200-400 HZ). Below it, it is all about the room.
post #78 of 114
I own a set of the Pendragons and noticed people asking for auditions. I signed up to say that I don't mind auditioning them for anyone that wants to hear them. I live in the Baton Rouge, Louisiana area. I'm pretty new to the hi-fi audio game. My most expensive set of speakers before the Pendragons were $500. With that said, I think that they sound phenomenal and I'm using a cheap Crown xls1500 and a 5year old Pioneer Elite receiver with no remote that someone gave to me.
post #79 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I am biased as I just took Floyd Toole's three courses at CEDIA. He would not dispute that some speakers that measure well sound bad but not because of measurements but because there either weren't enough of them or they were wrong. He has found a very high correlation if enough measurements are done and of the right kind that they can predict with very good correlation of what a speaker will sound like in an average room that has had just minimal treatment but only above the transition frequency (200-400 HZ). Below it, it is all about the room.
Not only are you biased, but old and wise too. biggrin.gif
post #80 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Plus s/h to and from. Plus insurance. Plus additional fees if sent to Canada. I tell you, they've done a hell of a job carpet bombing the entire Internet getting the word out on the company.
Aperion is pretty good at that too.
post #81 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Aperion is pretty good at that too.

Thats the part that sucks, they all give you 30 or 60 days to review but then you pay for shipping and restocking fee that sucks I live in canada lol
post #82 of 114
Got this from a different thread but they think this should be the driver the tekton uses, in one of the reviews they mention eric uses a bass gutar driver for the pendragons, we have been looking at the wrong ones.

check it out and see if it does change anything they have 2 more 10" drivers in the guitar bass section but the sensitivuty is not the same. He Eric did say in the review they make customer drivers for him, so maybe they tweak it some how no clue im pulling at straws.

http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Legend_BP102


reason for designing the pendragons the way he did, more debateful information

The downside — and frankly, the only downside that I seem able to find — is that this also means that these are not speakers for the detail-freak. I talked to Eric about this, and he gave the verbal equivalent to a shrug. It’s the big flat baffle, he says. Getting more precision (read: detail) out of the drivers would require a lot of tweaking to the speaker’s cabinet. And when I say “a lot” I mean a lot. Something to tune of a couple of grand worth of tweaking. And that really wasn’t where this speaker was supposed to go. Eric also admitted that these drivers might not be as “hi-fi” sounding as some, but I’m on the fence as to whether this is a good or a bad thing. Borrowing a turn of phrase from Srajan Ebaen at 6moons, there’s no pixelation. In fact, they’re almost kind of smooth. On the plus side, everything sounds pretty good. Even crappy recordings! Like metal? You just found your speaker.
Edited by whasaaaab - 9/12/12 at 8:00pm
post #83 of 114
silver oil.jpg 503k .jpg file Here is what the upgrade mundorf supreme silver/oil cap, these things can cost over $200 well the one that the pendragin uses. they guy said it sounded way better its in one of the links. Its huge compared what you get with the pendragons

price

Value /voltage DxL(mm) price ea
10µF/1000VDC 46 x 110 181.86


here is a link to 2 other thread about the dragons, even one of the reviewers comments again about the goodand the bad about the dragons

http://www.hometheaterequipment.com/floorstanding-speakers-62/tekton-design-mundorf-silver-oil-capacitor-upgrade-2782/

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109242.0
post #84 of 114
I thought Aperion didn't charge re-stocking fees? Or return shipping?
post #85 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

These Pendragon speakers...where are they made? If you look at the address for Tekton, it points to a house in Orem, Utah.

Why should that matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

Guys any thoughts about the Mundorf Silver-Oil Capacitor Upgrade…????? Has anyone done this with other speakers they have owned? I was told i could chenge a couple of tihng son my RS8 and it would sound lilke the GS8 just by changing some things inside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Sounds like a money maker.



My understanding is that he adds the Mundorf upgrade at cost - there is no markup. "For those of you in Rio Linda"...that means it isn't a money maker.
Edited by finsup - 9/16/12 at 1:15pm
post #86 of 114
Before you pull the trigger on the Tekton option, check out this speaker that may be a bit similar. http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_rhythm-prism.html

These are still speakers I wish I had! One of these days I'll own a piece of Duke's magic.
post #87 of 114
post #88 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

This was brought up on the audioholics Tekton thread. Looks like a conflict of interest.
http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/release-utah-based-loudspeaker-manufacturer-tekton-design-becomes-indie-films-professional-loudspeaker-sponsor/

The sponsorship actually happened around a month after he reviewed the Pendragons. I actually asked him about that and he said he was the one that approached Eric (Pendragon creator) if he would like to sponsor him.
post #89 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

According to the review the pendragons are one of the best out there with B&W 800 Diamond, Wilson Audio, focal etc...

Well considering those aren't nearly the best out there.................. that's not saying much. In fact the only one of those that I could even consider buying is Focal Professional...

Don't read too much into reviews. I've read dozens and when a review is glowing, it's either backed up by objective evidence or it's not. The former is called a good review, and the latter is called a 6 moons reviewvertisement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post

The Tekton has some serious design flaws. I would take the Salk hands down over it.

And if you want a lot of tweeters, look into Rick Craig's CBT Line Arrays. Now there's a hell of a speaker.
Quote:
I checked out salk spekers but their are no reviews for them on the website, unless i have to search the internet for them and they are not good looking except for the soundscape 8 they look decent. I love the design of these speakers their different, look at these speakers they are ugly as hell but apparently they are one of the best out there http://hometheaterreview.com/meyer-sound-x-10-powered-loudspeakers

Salk makes very fine speakers. If I had a hundred grant lying around I would get a SoundScape 12, Songtower SC, Pharos, and Archos. Certainly they are made with accurate sound reproduction in mind, which isn't apparently the case with these Tektons.
Quote:
Nuance not trying to call you out here but I highly doubt the salks are that much better than the paradigm sig or the others, a bais opinion seems to be flowing out all over that post, I'd think the paradigm, b&w and others can hold their own against the salks.

Objectively, B&W can't hold a candle to Salk - their speakers measure poorly and this is audible to people that know what to listen for. Subjectively, I don't like Paradigm speakers and while I've never heard a Salk, I've heard another speaker designed by the same guy and it's a lot better than what i've heard from Paradigm.
Quote:
I would LOVE to here Salks but man it's tough to give up $5000+ for speakers that I can't see or hear before buying then I go downtown and can see, hear and touch speakers like paradigms which sound amazing, but won't lie those Salk songtower supercharge might have me taking that big risk as I love their custom look and slimmer design over e songtowers.

When buying speakers, you should normally try to audition. But that shouldn't disqualify ID brands. Salk has a whole bunch of willing owners who will welcome you into their homes for an audition. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you've got one within driving distance.
Quote:
own, I also made it clear that I haven't heard them all so I couldn't tell but I would think paradigm flagship speaker line could hold its own to the Salks and the reviews the sigs get are great and compare them to speakers twice as much


You'd be shocked how often I hear "compares to speaker x times as much" and great. But this means nothing. Absolutely nothing.

The real truth is a speaker is either accurate or not. If it's not accurate it has flaws. It's the flaws that define the speaker. A speaker could do 95% of things like but have one critical flaw that makes it a poor speaker, regardless of price. Pro Reviewers rarely seem to have any better a listening ability than the average person (in fact Sean Olive's research suggests as much) so you're really just taking one person's word for it.

The reality is that if a $10,000 flagship speaker sounds bright and fatiguing for whatever reason, it doesn't matter how detailed the treble is or how good the imaging is. This is where you run into problems reading reviews or trusting your own ear if you don't know what to listen for. I'm not saying you shouldn't audition, but it's just wayy too easy to "fall into the trap". And with a lot of these brick and mortar brands, that trap is their lifeblood. They aren't focused on bringing you the absolutely most accurate speaker. They're focused on making sales.

Speakers are a reproduction tool, not a sound instrument. The ideal speakers just bring the recording into your room or your room into the recording. They don't add anything of their own character to the tonality. All speakers are flawed in one way or another so what you get left with is the set of compromises that best suits you. But that heari shouldn't equate to picking the most pleasing inaccurate speaker.
Quote:
depending on the person I'm sure some will like the sig or 802 better than the Salks and other way around.

No doubt there's going to be people that prefer a over b. But that doesn't make a better. And chances are, 75% of people may prefer B if B measures better - Toole and Olive's research for Harman has shown the big correlation between good measurement (accuracy) and widely preferred sound. So if it measures better, and is more widely preferred, are you wrong to prefer what you prefer? I dunno but you shouldn't claim it's better.
Quote:
I like how the sounscape 8's look but thatsth eonly one i like the other ones look wierd too me. I will read up on some, i know there are reviews on the net i just have not looked yet thank you for provding some. A few other people told me to check our salk speakers as well.

As far as custom speaker companies - Vapor, Selah, Salk etc go, if there's a certain aesthetic you want they should be able to get you that. It may have audible consequences but they will design the best they can for a certain shape. That said you should keep in mind that what they do is usually to get the best sound - the aesthetics are a side product. Since you like wider baffles, you may be interested in Vapor Audio's Arcus Tower or perhaps a square version of Salk's Pharos. If I had to suggest anything though, I'd recommend looking at Audiokinesis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Robinson 
As for measurements I don't do measurements of loudspeakers (subs yes, but for EQ purposes) for each speaker reacts differently in a given room.

Nonsense, Andrew.

Good measuring speakers don't meaningfully change timbre in different rooms. If there is a difference, our ears adjust to the sound of the room. But measurements most certainly matter above the modal region. To suggest otherwise shows a poor understanding of our hearing mechanism and technical knowledge of measurements.
Quote:
http://www.montanaloudspeakers.com/speakers/montana-speakers/eps-2

When you look at these they have similiar design of the pendragons with the tweeters down the middle. some other people said it was good as well

That is a very different and more sensible design than the Tekton. Those aren't tweeters down the middle - it's one tweeter flanked by a pair of midranges.
Quote:
Someone have a Salk vs Tekton shootout already

Murder is against the law.
Quote:
One other aside for those that are interested. He discussed constant directivitiy speakers and how they can limit room problems. I went up to him at the break because first reflections in his studies showed an advantage not a disadvantage. He said that in blind listening tests in a normal room, a constant directivity speaker would be at "a disadvantage". That said he said horn speakers can now be every bit as good as standard speakers with today's developments. Previous statement not withstanding. Sorry for the interruption.

Randy, did you discuss crossfiring with him?
post #90 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Randy, did you discuss crossfiring with him?
No, I didn't.
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