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Are audio companies all involved in a huge conspiracy? - Page 2

post #31 of 3048
8/20/12 at 9:58am
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

There is a lot of generalizing going on here, on my part as well.

Thing is, it looks like your generalizations are based on umm, "thought experiments'.
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So lets break this down a bit. It seems to me everyone will fall into one of these camps, or perhaps inbetween two of them.

You're right, there are two camps - those who just talk, and those who have actually done their homework. In case that seems overly general, by that I mean actually done level-matched, time-synched, bias-controlled listening tests of amps.
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1) No matter the price, all decently built amps sound about the same,

That is observable reality.
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2) While there are small differences between so called "high end" amps and your generic consumer electronics, the differences are too small to merit the exorbitant costs associated with the really pricy equipment.

Who cares about that when reality is: No audible difference.

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3) Between say $100 receivers and $1000 power / pre amps, there is a pretty substantial difference, but after that, their is a steep curve of diminishing returns.

No, between $100 receivers and $100,000 power amps that measure at least as well as a $100 receiver (many don't) there is simply no audible difference.
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4) At every price level, there are noticeable differences.

That would be known as the "fantasy" position.

The facts automatically preclude your remaining position since if the above is false, so is it..

To keep this friendly, just provide one example of an exception that we can check out...
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post #32 of 3048
8/20/12 at 10:01am
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

your mind is only boggled because you choose not to accept science, and instead choose to look at "price tag" as a "spec"...

Just love how these types plaster the price of equipment all over their posts. "my speaker ($10,000 cool.gif ) sound great with my $50,000 cool.gif amp with my $2,000 power cable and my $9,000 HDMI cable. I spend alot of money on my stuff there fore I have golden ears and makes me more knowledgable.
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post #33 of 3048
8/20/12 at 10:04am
This conversation reminds of the many God vs Science debates I have watched. The scientists are completely convinced that science itself is the litmus test to define all truths. If there is no scientific proof, it doesnt exist. Well, I didnt join this thread to try to convince you God exists in the absence of proof. No more than I am going to try to offer the kind of evidence that a agnostic would want to be persuaded.

For in the end, after hours of my time, none of you are going to change your opinion no matter what evidence I present. In a way, thats how it should be. Each of us must convince ourselves of what is true and not.

Jim folds his tent and goes home.
Edited by jim19611961 - 8/20/12 at 11:22am
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post #34 of 3048
8/20/12 at 10:08am
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

none of you are going to change your opinion no matter what evidence I present.

confused.gif can you repost the evidence cause I must have missed it.
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post #35 of 3048
8/20/12 at 10:58am
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

For in the end, after hours of my time, none of you are going to change your opinion no matter what evidence I present.....

Worth reposting in response...
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post


Quite the contrary. We've been consistent and clear about the nature of the evidence that would change our minds. (That's the true definition of open-mindedness.)
But what about you? What evidence would be sufficient to convince you that the differences in amps you think you've heard were really just a psychoacoustic illusion?

Or subtle level differences being the other possibility to account for perceived differences.
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post #36 of 3048
8/20/12 at 11:39am
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Or subtle level differences being the other possibility to account for perceived differences.
I would argue that misinterpreting a level difference as a sound quality difference qualifies as a psychoacoustic illusion.
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post #37 of 3048
8/20/12 at 11:39am
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can you repost the evidence cause I must have missed it.
Haha.

Let him go. He obviously has nothing to contribute.
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post #38 of 3048
8/20/12 at 11:46am
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

how do you argue that cable X doesn't make a system sound better if every customer who's ever bought one thinks it does?

Easy: DBT! biggrin.gif
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It's not like patent medicines where people wind up spending their money on a non-cure rather than a real cure. The harm is only in the price paid, and people freely and willingly paid that price.

A lot of 'phoole products are snake oil and do not improve the sound at all. Anything from Shunyata, anything from Geoff Kait, the Bybee nonsense, and so forth. The reason the government doesn't get involved is because the fraud is so small (too few victims) compared to Medicare cheats and insurance scams. Plus, many of the people who fall for this stuff actually believe their systems sound better. That's what so devilishly delightful about this scam. You cheat people and they not only don't know they were cheated, they will argue vehemently on your behalf in audio forums to anyone who will listen! eek.gif

--Ethan
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post #39 of 3048
8/20/12 at 11:49am
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

This conversation reminds of the many God vs Science debates I have watched. The scientists are completely convinced that science itself is the litmus test to define all truths.

That would be a false characterization of scientists. In fact there are scientists that believe in God.
The above also looks like a completely irrelevant comment. Audio is supposed to be about something that is almost 100% phsyical, while religion can be based on beliefs that are almost 100% metaphysical.

Are you talking about amplifiers that you buy in a store, or are your amplifiers descended from heaven in cloud or born of a virgin?

A similar attempt to distract comes when people start talking about audio in terms of small particle physics. How many Higgs Bosun accelerators does it take to make up the output stage of a good sounding amplifier?
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If there is no scientific proof, it doesnt exist.


Straw man argument. You're dealing with people who know that absence of proof is not proof of absence whether you know it or not.
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Well, I didnt join this thread to try to convince you God exists in the absence of proof.

Nobody but you even brought that possibility up. Do you think that you can hide behind distracting comments like these?

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No more than I am going to try to offer the kind of evidence that a agnostic would want to be persuaded.

AFAIK you haven't produced any evidence at all. You did say some potentially insulting things about us being a bunch of ignoramouses that have never heard an amplitier that cost more than about nickle or something like that! ;-)
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For in the end, after hours of my time, none of you are going to change your opinion no matter what evidence I present.

Do you really believe that you've adequately tested those waters with the 100% absence of evidence that you have regaled us with so far?

If you are going to talk evidence, don't you think you really ought to try presenting some?
Edited by arnyk - 8/20/12 at 12:14pm
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post #40 of 3048
8/20/12 at 12:41pm
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

confused.gif can you repost the evidence cause I must have missed it.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1323551/very-powerful-amp-better-sound-quality/210#post_20201905
[looks like the link above is broken. Here is the one that still works: http://www.4audio.rs/upload/File/Bryston/Bryston%20review%2049.pdf]
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1323551/very-powerful-amp-better-sound-quality/240#post_20204201
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1323551/very-powerful-amp-better-sound-quality/270#post_20206125
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post #41 of 3048
8/20/12 at 2:25pm
Would you mind clarifying your post for an unknowledgeable lurker?

I read the linked article, then scanned one of the referenced threads, in which you quoted the following from the article as its key point:

"We were sitting in open listening for well over one hour, and no one mentioned a single word about any differences they either imagined or heard. Actually, that’s the first time ever something like that has happened."

To my reading, the failure to locate any differences (and the prior discussion of differences) occurred during "open listening," which the article indicates to be sighted. It appears that what happened for the first time was that no differences were identified during sighted listening, when previously they had been.

The article goes on to describe this situation persisting during blind listening, i.e., the Bryston amp is audibly transparent.

My general (and admittedly non-technical) understanding of the article is as follows:

Amplifier is tested and found to add coloration due to an engineering decision.
At the reviewer's suggestion, the amplifier is modified to address this issue.
The amplifier is tested again and found to be completely transparent, lacking any of the coloration originally found.

I'm having trouble understanding how this article is evidence of amplifiers sounding different, absent any similar design flaw. Can you explain how it does?
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post #42 of 3048
8/20/12 at 2:34pm
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Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

But isn't this sort of like a conspiracy? That if you even dug deeper like a 20/20 or 60 minutes research team, they'd find even more bizarre things?

They are simply catering for a market. Same reason there are $20,000 Rolex watches around when a $20 digital Casio is actually more accurate at keeping time.

Bragging rights/status symbol/snob value.

Some people simply want a high-priced boutique brand over a mass market brand that Joe sixpack average across the street and 20 other people in the neighbourhood have.

The audio industry knows this full well. Creating a small boutique brand with a high pricetag will do two things. Keep it exclusive and away from Joe sixpack average... and at the same time give it an air of "high quality"... and thus becomes desirable and the thing to have. Quite often the high pricetag is an a important part of the marketing strategy.

A conspiracy? No, catering for the vanity of human nature.
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post #43 of 3048
8/20/12 at 2:46pm
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Originally Posted by Section 107 View Post

At the reviewer's suggestion, the amplifier is modified to address this issue.
The amplifier is tested again and found to be completely transparent, lacking any of the coloration originally found.
Correct.
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I'm having trouble understanding how this article is evidence of amplifiers sounding different, absent any similar design flaw. Can you explain how it does?
From the second link I provided:
"We were sitting in open listening for well over one hour, and no one mentioned a single word about any differences they either imagined or heard. Actually, that’s the first time ever something like that has happened."

They have tested many amps this way. Only in a few instances have they found no coloration. If you read the Bryston report you see how they talk about their surprise as they did not expect the coloration to go away.
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post #44 of 3048
8/20/12 at 2:49pm
250,000.00 system to play a 20.00 mass produced CD that was recorded in a studio equipped with the same cabling and gear we use in high end field production.
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post #45 of 3048
8/20/12 at 2:52pm
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I spend alot of money on my stuff there fore I have golden ears and makes me more knowledgable.

Very true. I have noticed that attitude in a few other hobbies I have had as well. Like photography for one. People in photography forums that had the larger collections of the most expensive cameras/lenses/accessories always seemed to pass themselves off as the ultimate authority on everything. The funny thing was though that looking through their online photo albums quite often revealed some of the most unimaginative, boring, poorly executed photos around. (but not always)

Much like I suppose seeing someone posting a photo of all their megger expensive amps and speakers and yet seeing one of the speakers jammed into a corner and the other speaker in the middle of the room. All the gear and no idea.
Edited by kiwi2 - 8/20/12 at 3:23pm
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post #46 of 3048
8/20/12 at 2:52pm
It appears that he's referring to the open (sighted) portion of the test. I fail to see how this proves the point, but I'll just assume that's on me.

Thanks for explaining, though.
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post #47 of 3048
8/20/12 at 3:24pm
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It appears that he's referring to the open (sighted) portion of the test. I fail to see how this proves the point, but I'll just assume that's on me.
No, it's not on you. Amirm has misread the article. He's a high-end salesman, so this sort of thing is to be expected.
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post #48 of 3048
8/20/12 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 107 View Post

Would you mind clarifying your post for an unknowledgeable lurker?
I read the linked article, then scanned one of the referenced threads, in which you quoted the following from the article as its key point:
"We were sitting in open listening for well over one hour, and no one mentioned a single word about any differences they either imagined or heard. Actually, that’s the first time ever something like that has happened."
To my reading, the failure to locate any differences (and the prior discussion of differences) occurred during "open listening," which the article indicates to be sighted. It appears that what happened for the first time was that no differences were identified during sighted listening, when previously they had been.
The article goes on to describe this situation persisting during blind listening, i.e., the Bryston amp is audibly transparent.
My general (and admittedly non-technical) understanding of the article is as follows:
Amplifier is tested and found to add coloration due to an engineering decision.
At the reviewer's suggestion, the amplifier is modified to address this issue.
The amplifier is tested again and found to be completely transparent, lacking any of the coloration originally found.
I'm having trouble understanding how this article is evidence of amplifiers sounding different, absent any similar design flaw. Can you explain how it does?

BTW these article(s) are just another example of how one can completely deconstruct some pretty lame stuff, and like Lazarous, it gets raised from the dead as if no problem was ever found with any of it.
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post #49 of 3048
8/20/12 at 4:49pm
@CharlesJ: Refresh my memory.

"There's a customer born every minute."
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post #50 of 3048
8/20/12 at 5:31pm
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

A lot of 'phoole products are snake oil and do not improve the sound at all. Anything from Shunyata, anything from Geoff Kait, the Bybee nonsense, and so forth. The reason the government doesn't get involved is because the fraud is so small (too few victims) compared to Medicare cheats and insurance scams. Plus, many of the people who fall for this stuff actually believe their systems sound better. That's what so devilishly delightful about this scam. You cheat people and they not only don't know they were cheated, they will argue vehemently on your behalf in audio forums to anyone who will listen! eek.gif

That is so true! There was a thread on Audio Circle a couple of months back about a $1500 Shunyata power conditioner. As the picture shows, it's just a decent-looking box with some outlets, bus bars, an MOV, a breaker and a couple of shunt capacitors - no series filtering elements at all. The MOVs do nothing if there is no overvoltage condition. Somebody very quickly tipped off the Shunyata rep to the thread's existence, then some Shunyata owners started backing up the Shunyata rep. I asked if it were true that Shunyata includes free knee pads with each purchase, and was booted from the forum for two weeks and the post was deleted. biggrin.gif
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post #51 of 3048
8/20/12 at 6:00pm
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I asked if it were true that Shunyata includes free knee pads with each purchase, and was booted from the forum for two weeks
But it was worth it.
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post #52 of 3048
8/20/12 at 6:14pm
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

250,000.00 system to play a 20.00 mass produced CD that was recorded in a studio equipped with the same cabling and gear we use in high end field production.

You are making perfect sense. Thank you!
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post #53 of 3048
8/20/12 at 6:59pm
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

How about a test where the inside components of a lower end cheap amp like something from Onkyo or Emotiva was switched out with something from Krell or McIntosh and vice versa. The test could be a basic sighted test where the listeners could see what they were listening too, we could even tell them the prices, Emotiva $899 vs the Krell $10,000 just as examples. I wonder how many would choice the expensive looking amp with the cheaper components as the better sounding one?

Kinda been done. The key point of your question is whether people are swayed by brand and rep, and it has shown to be true even with speakers (which at least most accept can and should sound different, hey at least the measurements vary!). See almost anything from Sean, and there is a fantastic personal report from dave moulton on the very same thing.

It has been shown with cdps, expensive unit has the exact same internals as a cheap one, stuff like that.
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post #54 of 3048
8/20/12 at 7:21pm
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

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I asked if it were true that Shunyata includes free knee pads with each purchase, and was booted from the forum for two weeks
But it was worth it.

Yup! biggrin.gif
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post #55 of 3048
8/20/12 at 11:49pm
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

250,000.00 system to play a 20.00 mass produced CD that was recorded in a studio equipped with the same cabling and gear we use in high end field production.

Just to clarify - while there are a few recording studios that high end cable manufacturers have given high end cable to ( apparently for publicity purposes), almost all recording studios are wired with commodity (e.g. Belden, Carol, or West Penn) audio cable. As far as the equipment goes, while a few studios use amps from high end manufacturers, one sees a lot of Crowns and other pro audio brands. One of the thing that you will see in a recording session is a ton of mic cable. The mic cables that are used for recording are prized for their durable construction and good shielding, not sliver or gold-plated connectors or ultra-pure stranded wire. You will see far, far more JBL professional, Mackie, Yamaha and other professional monitor and mixing speakers than high end brands and not by just a little. And so on.

Professional audio equipment is generally far more pragmatic than high end audio. Just as the consumer's high end power cable is at the end of a long chain of pragmatically-designed commodity power wiring, the high end CD player is at the end of a long chain of a pragmatically-designed commodity chain of production equipment.
Edited by arnyk - 8/20/12 at 11:55pm
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post #56 of 3048
8/20/12 at 11:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Correct.
From the second link I provided:
"We were sitting in open listening for well over one hour, and no one mentioned a single word about any differences they either imagined or heard. Actually, that’s the first time ever something like that has happened."
They have tested many amps this way. Only in a few instances have they found no coloration. If you read the Bryston report you see how they talk about their surprise as they did not expect the coloration to go away.

The problem is that all of the evaluations appear to have been sighted. That makes them more like a public opinion survey than an actual audible fact.
Edited by arnyk - 8/21/12 at 12:51am
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post #57 of 3048
8/21/12 at 6:47am
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The problem is that all of the evaluations appear to have been sighted.
Later in the article, he describes a sort-of blind test. Or rather, a blind sort-of test. But it doesn't look like he really knows how to do a blind test properly.

What's really strange is that the result was a finding of no difference, and yet this article is being cited as an example of a blind test in which people could hear a difference between amps. I know that high-end dealers need to spin the truth, but this is ridiculous.
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post #58 of 3048
8/21/12 at 7:12am
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Later in the article, he describes a sort-of blind test. Or rather, a blind sort-of test. But it doesn't look like he really knows how to do a blind test properly.
What's really strange is that the result was a finding of no difference, and yet this article is being cited as an example of a blind test in which people could hear a difference between amps. I know that high-end dealers need to spin the truth, but this is ridiculous.

Sort of blind = sighted.

I have seen people say that they heard no differences in a sighted test as a lame attempt to make their testing seem more objective.

The one refreshing part of the article if i recall it properly, is that they actually figured out how to do a decent straight-wire-bypass test. Not that this is anything that others including myself didn't do long before (done by some Brits maybe 4 decades ago), just that at least they got something right. I think they may have matched levels and used a switchbox so that they could at least make fairly close comparisons. This puts them miles ahead of your typical "I hooked it up and played my favorite CD of this week and heard a difference" that we see all over the place.

Closer, but unfortunately still no cigar.
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post #59 of 3048
8/21/12 at 11:10am
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

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I asked if it were true that Shunyata includes free knee pads with each purchase, and was booted from the forum for two weeks and the post was deleted.
But it was worth it.

LOL, perfect. biggrin.gif

I'm proud to say I've been kicked out of more than a few forums for politely suggesting that people's ears are not as reliable as they believe. Hey, when you can't refute someone on the facts, all that's left is censorship.

--Ethan
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post #60 of 3048
8/21/12 at 11:29am
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I'm proud to say I've been kicked out of more than a few forums for politely suggesting...
Well that's your mistake right there. Politeness is fine as a general proposition, but if you're gonna be booted anyway, make sure you get in at least one good zinger on the way out!
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