Frequency Response - A General Question

If LFE and speaker bass is bass managed at 120Hz, then "A" as "A's" subwoofer digs deeper; more impact bass, bigger sound.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/20/12 at 2:03pm

Dbl post; "D'oh!"

Main L/R speakers should have the capability to go down to 60 Hz IMO, and the subwoofer should be used only below 80 Hz. If you think about it for a minute isn't it kind of ridiculous to have 5 speakers and then have only ONE speaker operating all the way up to 120 Hz or higher?

The center and satellite speakers should have the capability to go down to around 80 Hz.

You also DO NOT want a subwoofer operating at the same frequencies as the other speakers, because they can cancel each other out at frequencies where they are out of phase.

If every speaker is LPF to 80Hz and the sub set to 120Hz, then you have bloating and boominess as the bass of the mains and the other speakers are now fighting with the sound waves the sub is recreating. You know this? ??? What am I missing that you seem to not be sharing or I'm not understanding in your comment? ???

Listening tests have indicated that most people cannot localize bass below 80hz. And most speakers are not going to outperform a quality subwoofer in the 60-80hz range in terms of overall output and extension. I would daresay very few. I would concentrate on buying a good subwoofer that has solid extension and output and then getting speakers that perform well to at least to the 80hz range. Once you get to the 80hz+ range you might be able to localize the bass in your room, so you may want to test it out. Many good bookshelves are designed to rolloff in the 70-80hz range.

In my own personal tests I have had a hard time localizing bass until I get in the 100hz range.

What is your budget, and why are you only looking at speakers with these specs?

Do you have a subwoofer?

What is your budget?

Does your current AVR have room analyzer like Audyssey MultiEQ XT? What's your setup?

Are the speakers from the same manufacturer? If so the comparison might be valid if they use the same criteria for the specs. Specs are often inflated and rarely do companies give enough specs to show the speaker's capabilty and different manufacturers measure differently. For instance let's look at the sub specs. Is the 28hz or 33hz a flat response or -3db, -6db, or -10db? And if say they both are -3db specs how loud can they play. A bose cube can play 28hz but can probably ony be heard by a gnat at that frequency because it can't go that loud at that frequency. I'd rather a sub that can play 105db at 33hz then one that can play 28hz but only reach 85db.

Unfortunately these specs are far from complete and make it practically impossible to determine which would be a better choice.

In the simple, it's gotta go. The sound quality improvement is quite remarkable as the sound analyzer automatically cleans up a lot of frequency dips and peaks and in the process, levels the sound quality out; true to the intent of the mixing board crew.

(Say hi to San Jose for us as after forty-six years, we left in Nov 2010.)

FWIW, if you don't know already, there's a small audio shop located on Fruitdale, next to the Subway sandwich shop, at Meridian. Don't remember the name and IIRC, they keep squirrely hours. We made several purchases from Bay Area Audio, located in San Jose, next to 85 and Saratoga-Sunnyvale Rd or De Anza Blvd. They may have gone to appointment only.

The next high-end shop I would stop in at was up in Palo Alto, by Page Mill and El Camino. It's was a bit South of Page Mill past the Mac computer repair shop and the Footlocker shoe store by a block or so, same side of the street. And yes, the name escapes me but they have a nice friendly crew there with lots of neat stuff.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/20/12 at 9:14pm

Yamaha doesn't make bad speakers but I think at that price point there are too many compromises. Spending the better part of your budget on better speakesr will give the best performance increase. The Energy would be a good improvement although I think you might be able to do a little better for the same price if you can go a little larger.

Something like three pairs of the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR for less than $100/pair and Polk PSW-10 sub $100 for more more bass will outperform the Energy and be an even bigger improvement. I don't think you'll gain much between the Yamaha or Energy sub. They are larger speakers though and you'll end up with a spare speaker.

In general 5 identical speakers is best and they all should be vertically arranged if possible. Center speakers are a compromise so they can fit easier and aesthetically they are more pleasing but acoustically it is not ideal. It is generally better to place a regular speaker on its side than use a midrange-tweeter-midrange design for the center. It has to do with off axis response of speakers and too much to explain now. I do like that Energy doesn't do that in its Take 5 center and the reason I wouldn't recommend the matching Pioneer center and just use an identical speaker on its side.

The Pioneer having a bigger 4" woofer and bigger cabinet is going to give a fuller sound and play louder than the 3" woofer and smaller cabinet of the Energy. Don't go by the specs again as it appears one is measured in room which makes it seem louder because it measures the reflections combined with the speakers sound. Other speakers are measured in an anechoic chamber so there is no room reflections or gain. A well known industry professional one told us in a class. "The only specs I trust from a manufacturer are size and weight, the rest is marketing." Unfortunately, this is true in many but not all cases.

Either way you go will be an improvement over your current Yamaha system. Hope this helps.

It will create a hole in the frequency response - you will miss out on some good bass response/notes.

I own the Pioneer BS22 bookshelf speakers, and they would be a nice upgrade for you. They are better,
than some popular name brand entry level bookshelf speakers out there.

The room and speaker placemet will also play a part. Some speakers that play down to 80hz,
do tend to work better with a 100hz crossover. I do not prefer anything that needs a crossover
higher than 100 hz - however some people like and are happy, with little sat speakers. Place-
ment of the sub also plays a part, for good bass blending.

Sort of. The main concern for the crossover frequency is keeping the subs non-directional. With a steep enough filter slope that can be accomplished at 100Hz, but with the filters found in typical consumer gear 80Hz is more like it, if not even 60Hz. So you'd like to have the mains go down to that area, but if they're not capable of doing so you're stuck with crossing over higher than optimal. As for the lowest rated response of your mains/center, if there's no measured SPL chart to back up the manufacturer claims take those claims with a truckload of salt.

Another thing that is important is actual speaker placement. . . especially for sub woofers. The configuration of walls and general shape of a room and placement can have a varied affect on audio performance. The Disney WOW disc actually has a section on audio that also shows how to arrange speakers for optimum effect. The placement of speakers may have more of an affect than choosing a crossover point especially in modest systems. But , generally, systems with small front and satellite speakers would need a higher crossover for the woofer due to the lack of meaningful bass output of a 2.5" to 4" front speaker. But as with most things, your mileage may vary.

If that's the case neither is capable of going to 100Hz with meaningful output. The smallest midbass worth considering is 5.25", and even then you need two to provide decent levels. Smaller than that is for those who only care about how their speakers look, not how they sound. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you do have to decide where to place your priorities.

Young ears can hear as low as 20 hz and I, at 50, was able to hear down to 40hz last month...

FWIW, if one cranks the EQ sliders up a bit (10-20dB), usually, one's hearing can dig a bit deeper.

Some here like to think that it's heresy to custom your EQ to your personal hearing as they consider doing so to be rude behavior because it doesn't take their hearing into consideration, despite the fact they'll never listen to your system.

Really!

I think I know which speaker system you have and the Energy 2 way speaker system will beat the single 2.5" driver of the Yamaha speaker. Here are some measurements from HTmag. I don't think these measurements tell everything about how a speaker will sound but we will use it for demonstration.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/energy-take-classic-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
Not bad but as you can see the 89db in room sensitivity that Energy claims is a little deceiving for comparing specs. I do commend them for an honest frequency response spec though and its in room is honest too. It just makes it hard to compare specs for the consumer.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/yamaha-yht-591-htib-ht-labs-measures
This isn't your speakers but other Yamahas gthat probably use the same driver. The fronts (purple graph) on these have 4 - 2.5" drivers and a .75 inch tweeter. The surrounds (green graph) have 2 - 2.5" drivers and tweeter which is probably closest to yourcenter speaker which doesn't have a tweeter. The center speaker (red graph) you can see the effect of putting the front speakers on its side. Since these measurements are an average of on axis and 15 degree off axis you can see what happen to the frequency response.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/psb-imagine-mini-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
A decent speaker with a 4" driver and 1" tweeter. In fairness these are a lot more expensive but you can see the 4" driver goes lower.

The point is if you can go with a larger speaker either with a 4-6" driver you gain quite a bit and you can probably find larger in your price range. I know you don't plan to play loud but it does help that they go lower for better integration as Bill stated. I know not everyone is willing to go with a bigger bookshelf speaker and that is fine.

In a nutshell, I think the Energy will be a noticeable improvement.