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Frequency Response - A General Question - Page 2

post #31 of 85
Thread Starter 
^^^^ thank you! This is the way AVS should be all of the time. A few differing opinions but none of the nastiness and posturing that you see in other threads. I have definitely learned a lot and feel a bit more confident in my meager speaker upgrades. I may just go with the Energy 5.0 and keep the Yamaha sub (unless the Energy is "better') because it certainly seems to work well and I could save a little copper in the process. I have no place to put two subs and I think that would be an overkill for my setup.
post #32 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

This is the way AVS should be all of the time. A few differing opinions but none of the nastiness and posturing that you see in other threads.

I suggest closing the thread before the inevitable rears its ugly head...rolleyes.gif
post #33 of 85
Hark. . . I dost think I hear horses whinnying in the distance! Frau Blucher!
post #34 of 85
post #35 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Hark. . . I dost think I hear horses whinnying in the distance! Frau Blucher!

My.....name......is.......Frankenschteen! biggrin.gif
post #36 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

I suggest closing the thread before the inevitable rears its ugly head...rolleyes.gif

smile.gif
post #37 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

I think I know which speaker system you have and the Energy 2 way speaker system will beat the single 2.5" driver of the Yamaha speaker.

I should have put the speaker info in my original post but they are the Yamaha NS-AP2600 and I run my speakers at 6 ohms, if that makes a difference. The sub is the YST-SWO12.
post #38 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I may just go with the Energy 5.0 and keep the Yamaha sub (unless the Energy is "better') because it certainly seems to work well and I could save a little copper in the process. I have no place to put two subs and I think that would be an overkill for my setup.

I would also think about replacing that Yamaha sub - maybe you can find a way to sell your Yamaha system.
For the most part, Energy subs tend to be decent.
Edited by zieglj01 - 8/22/12 at 6:08pm
post #39 of 85
I thought you had the SP1800 speaker system. But, they are very similar yousr has a 1/2" tweeter the 1800 doesn't. I doubt it would measure better than the one I linked.

I agree that the Energy sub would be an upgrade. It looks decent down to 40hz, the yamaha won't go that low. There 10 inch doesn't go that low from the measurements, 28hz is there -10db point which means roughly half volume. But, if you want to save some coin and are happy with your sub then keep it.

I would set your receiver to 8 ohms on the Yamaha, 6 ohm is a protection circuit but limits dynamics. I don't recommend it on the Yamaha receivers and having it set to 8 ohms it will still power lower ohm speakers fine. Instead I would reduce the max volume so you don't drive your amp into clipping. This will maintain your dynamics but not let you turn up the receiver too loud to harm your system. I would set the max volume to 0 or +5 instead of the default of +16.5db.
post #40 of 85
Thread Starter 
The receiver is the RX-V371. I set if for 6 ohms thinking that I wouldn't have to increase the volume as much to keep the loudness at a comfortable level and still be clear. Our normal, comfortable volume is usually set at -24.0dB to -25.0dB. I haven't set the max volume because we don't play it loud (the couch is only about 12' from the fronts) and don't worry about pushing the volume up. I sometimes push it to -22.0dB for some movies when no one is home and that's plenty loud for me.
post #41 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

I think I know which speaker system you have and the Energy 2 way speaker system will beat the single 2.5" driver of the Yamaha speaker.

I should have put the speaker info in my original post but they are the Yamaha NS-AP2600 and I run my speakers at 6 ohms, if that makes a difference. The sub is the YST-SWO12.

You still can. Just edit your original post. I always suggest thread starters edit their original post with information others would find useful instead of readers having to read the entire thread to search for information/updated/pics... All who visit your thread will appreciate it.
post #42 of 85
I would definitely set it to 8ohms. I'm very familiar with the Yamaha receivers. I suggest the max volume setting as it is just good practice, even if you don't normally play that loud. There is a difference between the 6 ohm mode and max volume. They might sound like they do similar things but they don't. What many people don't realize is that speakers vary their impedance by frequency. So while a speaker might say it is 4,6, or 8 ohms etc. The reality is it might be 3 ohms at 100hz and 30 ohms and 4khz. They are measured different ways so don't trust the specs again. Anyway the 6ohm switch really limits the dynamic capability of the amp to respond to these impedance changes at different frequencies even at lower volumes, that's why I don't recomend it and you will get better sound from your speakers by going back to the 8 ohm setting.
post #43 of 85
Thread Starter 
^^^ thanks. I'll switch tonight, find our "comfort" setting, and let it be to see how it sounds.
post #44 of 85
Not enough info in the original post specs to determine much of anything on how either would sound.. definitely not enough to make a meaningful comparison. Unfortunately specs are pretty much worthless as there are no real standards in the consumer market to measure to. The marketing dept can pretty much state whatever they like.
post #45 of 85
Thread Starter 
Agreed, but that's all I had to go on. Your assessment is pretty much in line with the other responses I've received. Specs are ok but you have to take them with a grain of salt. Too many variables.
post #46 of 85
Going directly off of Frequency response and crossover points is not going to give the needed information.

No idea for design methodology, driver quality, etc.

What kind of order is the crossover? What is the max wattage? Furthermore, how inert are the cabinets? What kind of distortion does the system have?

Like you said, way too many other variables that are not being shown to be able to make an objective choice between the two.
post #47 of 85
The notion that only one speaker should produce low bass frequencies may diminish your listening experience and movie soundtrack's impact. The theory goes that our ears cannot determine directionality on low frequencies. Higher frequencies, where the wavelength of the sound wave is shorter than the distance between one's ears, allows the slight time arrival of the sound wave to provide directionality. Low frequencies don't provide that direct "time-arrival" placement. HOWEVER, humans do sense bass direction by the arrival of low frequencies and the direction of impact energy. Therefore, if a sound engineer designed a soundtrack where low frequency energy is supposed to come from multiple directions, how much sense does it make to select a high crossover freq on your subwoofer so that most of the bass energy come form one speaker and one direction?

The fear is low frequencies will build up in the room and mask clear highs and mids. This build up often encourages artificial boosting of highs. This problem has a far better solution. I am an advocate of not allowing any of the audio heading to a full-range speaker to go through a sub-woofer x-over. This allows every full range speaker around the room to use it's own natural bass roll off, wherever it poops out. Then, the sub-woofer alone is on a cross over - external, built-in or digital sub-out. The sub x-over is set only to come on where the full range speakers give up. This can be adjusted best with a spectrum analyzer and you can get get a "good enough" one for $1. (Apple App: n-tune tracker) This trick helps solve the problem of bass buildup but preserves the intention of the original movie mix More importantly, it takes your precious mids and high frequencies - which ARE phase sensitive for imaging - and keeps them out of a low-end cross-over that can't help introduce phase distortion. This technique is often used in recording studios. Sufficient quality studio cross overs for subs can run thousands of dollars, so if you don't have one, don't use a cross over! That's my take. One other note - if you use this technique still get too much bass build up, the problem many not be your golden system but your brown poopy room acoustics. That's another problem . Nonetheless, cramming all your bass energy into one sub won't solve that either.
Edited by Quantum Studio - 8/25/12 at 11:07am
post #48 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum Studio View Post

The theory goes that our ears cannot determine directionality on low frequencies.

In the spirit of anal accuracy, as you accurately pointed out regarding higher frequencies, we can do the same with sub 80Hz as our brain will do the same via timing the differences of when the sound wave reaches the opposite ear. We're just not as good at it as we are with higher frequencies.

(Stays out of the; "How to set your sub/main settings." discussion.)

"...brown poopy room acoustics."

Now that's a sonic image worth remembering.

rolleyes.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/25/12 at 1:24pm
post #49 of 85
Thread Starter 
I'm sure my family room falls into the "brown poopy room acoustics" category (carpeted, leather furniture, curtain covered 8'x10' sliding glass door, and a 12' cathedral ceiling) tongue.gif Keep in mind that the current speakers (fronts and sides) are smallish bookshelves and not even close to full range. I have them running now at 6 ohms, small, and upped the sub x-over to 100Hz from 80Hz. The sounds "seems" a bit fuller but I don't know if that's just me being hopeful. No one else in the family has noticed anything but then they were happy with the tv speakers eek.gif The bass sounds ok, not localized, and the dialog doesn't have any noticeable change at all. Of course there's a large gap between the lower freq response of the speakers (if they can even get that low reliably) and setting the sub at 100Hz as opposed to 80Hz so any perceptible difference is probably my imagination. However, this is a really good learning experience. I haven't checked the receiver yet to see if I can change the x-over on the speakers to match the sub so maybe that's another way to squeeze a little more performance out them.

San Jose says hi to the BeeMan! btw, you don't happen to care for bees do you?
post #50 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

San Jose says hi to the BeeMan! btw, you don't happen to care for bees do you?

No. For thirty years, I was a professional bee killer who killed and removed hives in buildings and trees. eek.gif I sure miss all the great South Bay Area restaurants; from La Foret in New Almaden to Castro St. in Mountain View and everything in between. And I shan't forget a couple of out an out of town favs, Cliff House and Fog City Diner in S.F..

Boy, we sure do have a lock on good eats. biggrin.gif
post #51 of 85
Thread Starter 
^^^ interesting. We just had a hive a couple of months ago that was created in about 60 minutes in our orange tree. It ended up being about the size of two watermelons and we had to call the "bee guild" to have someone come out and remove it (not killed but re-located for future use). However, we digressed from the OT.
post #52 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

^^^ interesting. We just had a hive a couple of months ago that was created in about 60 minutes in our orange tree. It ended up being about the size of two watermelons and we had to call the "bee guild" to have someone come out and remove it (not killed but re-located for future use). However, we digressed from the OT.

Swarms were rescued as opposed to hives buried in trunks of trees being killed.
post #53 of 85
The crossover on the sub should be set to as high as possible or bypass if it has that option. The sub crossover is to be used if you don't have a crossover on the receiver such as in a stereo receiver. Sometimes we might use it to make a steeper slope but if you don't have the capability to measure you are probably getting less bass than you should.

There are a number of reasons for using the crossover for speakers/sub.

1. If you are playing frequencies that speakers are not capable you are hurting the speakers dynamics.

2. If you are playing frequencies that speakers are not capable you are increasing distortion.

3. To get good bass placement of the sub is important. The standing waves will be excited differently in a room depending on the location of the sub. By crossing over the low frequency information to the sub we are controlling the bass response in the room instead of having 6 or more different bass responses (5 or more speakers + sub).

4. Low frequencies are very difficult to localize, I didn't say impossible. However, localization often happens because the sub causes resonances of the sub itself or other objects in the room. These resonances happen at higher frequencies.

5. The best placement for midrange and higher frequencies is not the best placement for lower frequencies. This has to do with standing waves, reflections and SBIR (speaker boundary interference response).


Quanatum, your theory works well in large rooms (greater than ~50ft x50ft) where standing waves are not a problem but you still need capable speakers if you are going to play them full range. Although, different problems come in to play in larger spaces.

The problem with a speaker/ sub system is getting good integration. This is where most people have troubles.

Hope this helps.
post #54 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

For thirty years, I was a professional bee killer

So you're no stranger to stirring up a hornet's nest biggrin.gif
post #55 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

So you're no stranger to stirring up a hornet's nest biggrin.gif

eek.gif Turns all red faced. eek.gif

...............biggrin.gif.................
post #56 of 85
Thread Starter 
Anybody know what the frequency of a swarm of bees is? Trying to keep our discussion on topic wink.gif It sounds like (no pun intended) that I'll just have to play around with the settings some more and see if I can get a bit more improvement out of my current system and then carryover what I have learned to the new speakers (which should be a bit better, again given the size).
post #57 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Anybody know what the frequency of a swarm of bees is? Trying to keep our discussion on topic wink.gif It sounds like (no pun intended) that I'll just have to play around with the settings some more and see if I can get a bit more improvement out of my current system and then carryover what I have learned to the new speakers (which should be a bit better, again given the size).

About the frequency of an overhead helicopter without the reflective putt, putt, putt.

biggrin.gif
post #58 of 85
Good points Bob L. Need to clarify one thing you mentioned; "Quanatum, your theory works well in large rooms (greater than ~50ft x50ft)"

The idea of running only the sub through a crossover (and leaving full range speakers unscathed by less capable x-overs) doesn't just work in big rooms. It especially works well in small environment, including near-field monitoring in studios. Clear audio is always better enjoyed without a lot of room reflections.

Bob, you are correct that this technique works well on "capable" full range speakers - especially if you enjoy clean low frequency energy hitting you from multiple directions - the way it was produced. However, this technique also helps on more inexpensive book shelf speaker too. The x-over freq will obviously be higher because the small box / small cone speakers give up bass reproduction at a higher point. Nonetheless, well designed speakers should always be allowed to "do their thing" by giving them full range audio, in my view. Adding low sub back in the mix then only supports the deficiency of a good speaker. So try running your speakers with full range audio and a low sub x-over!! It a fun experiment. I encourage everyone to at least try it.

Bob L you also made another very good point. "There are a number of reasons for using the crossover for speakers/sub. 1. If you are playing frequencies that speakers are not capable you are hurting the speakers dynamics."

This is especially important in LIVE AUDIO to keep big energy out of small or under-rated speakers. Consider a mic on a kick drum, for example, If the audio was not compressed/limited, big thumps can make a driver travel way further than it can go, blowing the speaker.

However, most produced music - and most movies - are mastered well enough that Home Theater environments won't be destroyed by grievously uncontrolled low end energy. (I know there will be some exceptions.)

However, the enhanced phase relationships and clarity of the main speakers are a great benefit gained by running full range audio into decent speakers.

Subs are generally NOT designed to be protection for other main program speakers in the room. They ARE designed to produce hyper low frequencies the main speakers simply cannot produce. My advice: Keep the cross-over frequency as low as you can get it. Let the sub do what it does best which is start low and work up to the low end of full range speakers. You know what they say! "Don't have a dog and do its barking." A woofer on a full range speaker is there for a reason. Let it do its woofing. Don't replace it with a sub.

One more point. Bob L wrote: "2. If you are playing frequencies that speakers are not capable you are increasing distortion."" Not fully true. Think about it. If your speakers are "not capable" of producing something, then they are not putting out significant sound energy, let alone distortion! Objectionable distortion happens mostly by amplifier clipping, or pushing a higher range drivers beyond their physical limits. Clipping produces ugly and dangerous harmonics in the upper ranges. Powered subs can "protect" a main amp from clipping early only by taking the load off - especially at very, very low frequencies. (Big energy is reproduced by a good ultra low sub while running the entire system at lower volumes.) Distortion is MUCH more objection in higher frequency ranges. "Chalk on a chalkboard" drives us crazy not because of low frequencies but the high!
Edited by Quantum Studio - 8/26/12 at 12:44pm
post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

The problem with a speaker/ sub system is getting good integration. This is where most people have troubles.

eek.gif

Now that's what I'm talking about. The Martin Logan, Reserve, ESL subwoofer series intrigues me for just this reason; "good integration."

Yeah baby!

cool.gif
post #60 of 85
Thread Starter 
Ok guys this is getting a bit confusing. It all makes sense from this novice's point of view, but....... Apparently I can't set any x-overs for the fronts and sats other than set them to Small. The sub has options of 40, 60, 80 (default), 90, 100, 110, 120, 160, and 200Hz. So I've upped the sub from 80 to 100 and kept the fronts/sats at Small and 6 ohms. Sounds pretty much the same to me but I guess that's about all I can do?
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