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Cloud Atlas - Page 8

post #211 of 301
Yet it seems many people are offended at the concept of race-changing makeup. It may be a holdover from the Vaudeville days when blackface makeup was often used by white comedians as part of an act belittling blacks.

Every year when the wonderful musical comedy Holiday Inn is broadcast, it is common to censor the scene where Bing Crosby dresses as Abraham Lincoln, wears blackface, and sings "Abraham", a song which celebrates the role of Lincoln as the emancipator. I find this scene anything but offensive.

Yet there are several scenes in the same film where plus-sized black actress Louise Beavers is dressed as a domestic servant and displays demeaning stereotypical behavior, with her two "children". These scenes always seem to survive the censor.

I'll say this: It takes a talented actor to step outside their comfort zone and convincingly portray a character of another race. Tom Hanks, Halle Berry, and Hugo Weaving confirmed my prior opinions about their acting abilities in Cloud Atlas.
post #212 of 301
I'm just wondering if I'll ever get to see Song of the South again. Great movie, a technological wonder at the time, stuck indefinitely in PC limbo. Seems really silly to me (disclaimer: I'm Caucasian). If anything, it offers a teachable opportunity. Those who do not learn from history, etc.,etc. Do we really want to "whitewash" history - the good, the bad, and the ugly? What good does that serve?
post #213 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I'm just wondering if I'll ever get to see Song of the South again. Great movie, a technological wonder at the time, stuck indefinitely in PC limbo. Seems really silly to me (disclaimer: I'm Caucasian). If anything, it offers a teachable opportunity. Those who do not learn from history, etc.,etc. Do we really want to "whitewash" history - the good, the bad, and the ugly? What good does that serve?
I think the reason it hasn't been released is Disney, rightly or wrongly, would catch a lot of unwanted flack.
From their perspective, it isn't worth it.
post #214 of 301
Upon my 2nd viewing, I appreciate how clever the author/director was and how the thread along the 6 stories. I still have not finished the book yet.

They should make this into a 2-parter. Now I'm mulling whether I should buy the BR (borrowed from my kin).
post #215 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

Where are all these "offended" people when a Gentile plays Jesus or the apostles or another Jewish character, or vice-versa?

Where are all these "offended" people when a 30-year-old plays a 40-year-old, or vice-versa?

Where are all these "offended" people when an Australian actor plays an American or speaks with an American accent?

Where are all these "offended" people when a straight actor plays a gay character (Brokeback Mountain; Far From Heaven)?

Where are all these "offended" people when a location in a movie is not the actual location in the story? Shouldn't Texans be righteously upset if a movie that's supposed to take place in and around Austin is largely shot on sets (indoor and outdoor) in Michigan "made up" to look like they're near Austin (Whip It)?

So many people are so selective re: what is "offensive" and what is allowable. No one has a consistently logical hermeneutic for interpreting and dictating what is and is not "offensive." No one is willing to adhere to or support all that others might say is unallowable or offensive, yet they themselves seem to want to insist that all others wear the same political correctness blinders they've adopted and now use as a litmus test.

[/rant]

this is silly.

Did the actor who played Jesus have to wear extremely HEAVY makeup and prostetics?
Did the Australian have to wear HEAVY makeup and prostetics?
Anyone can have an Austrialian accent. If you are Asian/Black/Hawaiian and were raised in Australia you would have an accent.
Many Australians and Americans are the SAME RACE. Many are from England/western europe.
Your other examples are just plain silly and have nothing to do with RACISM and you know it.

Let me guess: You are white.
Let me guess: You never had to face REAL RACISM. Guess what? I did and I still do. Any white person will NEVER understand what it is like being a minority.

And answer this question:

Why didn't they have a white/asian person have makeup as a black person?
Why didn't Tom Hanks be a black guy?
Or why wasn't Hugo Weaving a black guy?

The reason is because the directors would get DESTROYED. They knew that would not be racially sensitive. Yet they go on their merry way doing the EXACT same thing for Asians/Latino's. Everyone can agree that Blackface is racists and in bad taste, yet Yellow face is okay.
Edited by sog35 - 6/24/13 at 1:01pm
post #216 of 301
No one was offended with the yellow face? I did a quick search and there a ton of articles that are calling out this movie. I could go on and on but that should be a good sample. There are also other articles that say Cloud Atlas is NOT racist. Funny thing? All those articles were written by NON-ASIAN people.

Pro tip; for many Asian cultures they would say NOTHING even if they were EXTREMELY offended. Japanese culture is to save face and keep your honor and not grumble about such 'minor' things. But I can say for a fact that many ARE angry but just won't say it in a public forum.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/alden-habacon/cloud-atlas-yellowface-diversity-racism-hollywood_b_2050368.html
http://theweek.com/article/index/235445/isnbspcloud-atlasnbspracist
http://www.torontoreviewofbooks.com/2012/12/racism-or-condescension-the-wachowskis-cloud-atlas-problem/
http://www.racebending.com/v4/blog/cloud-atlas-conversation-yellowface-prejudice-artistic-license/
http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/60875/yo-is-this-racist-race-bending-our-way-around-cloud-atlas
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/25/cloud-atlas-yellowface-wachowski_n_2017624.html
http://www.racialicious.com/2012/11/19/cloud-atlas-review-yellowface-and-orientalism/
http://io9.com/5955964/did-cloud-atlas-yellowface-problem-help-to-sink-it-at-the-box-office
http://jezebel.com/5949740/yellowface-alive-and-well-in-wachowski-starships-cloud-atlas
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/dailymusto/2012/10/cloud_atlas_und.php
http://goodmenproject.com/arts/yellowface-in-cloud-atlas/

Some point to the fact that there were Asian actresses in the Somni451 story.
But guess what? All the REAL ASIANS were SLAVES. Were HELPLESS until the good guys (white dude with yellow face) came along to 'help' them. Sounds like the same story from 1920's hollywood bigots. White people help the stupid/helpless black people. what a joke.
Edited by sog35 - 6/24/13 at 12:27pm
post #217 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

Why didn't they have a white/asian person have makeup as a black person?
Why didn't Tom Hanks be a black guy?
Or why wasn't Hugo Weaving a black guy?

The reason is because the directors would get DESTROYED. They knew that would not be racially sensitive. Yet they go on their merry way doing the EXACT same thing for Asians/Latino's. Everyone can agree that Blackface is racists and in bad taste, yet Yellow face is okay.

No, the reason is that the characters were who they were based on the book.None of the characters Tom Hanks or Hugo Weaving played were black. One of the characters Jim Sturgess played was Asian. So, you either hire an Asian actor who will play 5 characters who are caucasian, or you hire a caucasian actor who has to play one Asian character. The choice is simple.

(EDIT: also, hire a better makeup artist)
post #218 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

But I can say for a fact that many ARE angry but just won't say it in a public forum.
If they are not expressed where you can see, then how do you know who or how many are angry?
Quote:
Some point to the fact that there were Asian actresses in the Somni451 story.
But guess what? All the REAL ASIANS were SLAVES.
Including the customers of that restaurant?
Quote:
Were HELPLESS until the good guys (white dude with yellow face) came along to 'help' them. Sounds like the same story from 1920's hollywood bigots. White people help the stupid/helpless black people. what a joke.
You've already gone through this on this thread which some of the posts got deleted and you couldn't prove that your own personal view is THE OFFICIAL view of the world. Repeating the same thing won't change the outcome.
post #219 of 301
Wow, this thread managed to get worse than it already was. smile.gif
post #220 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

this is silly.

Did the actor who played Jesus have to wear extremely HEAVY makeup and prostetics?
Did the Australian have to wear HEAVY makeup and prostetics?
Anyone can have an Austrialian accent. If you are Asian/Black/Hawaiian and were raised in Australia you would have an accent.
Many Australians and Americans are the SAME RACE. Many are from England/western europe.
Your other examples are just plain silly and have nothing to do with RACISM and you know it.
This is silly.
In the movie Iron Sky (2012), street signs, news stands, trash cans ...etc of Frankfurt, Germany was changed to look like New York City for the sake of story and budget. Should New Yorkers be offended? I'll bet some are. Those are probably the ones that get offended no matter what.
Quote:
Let me guess: You are white.
Let me guess: You never had to face REAL RACISM. Guess what? I did and I still do. Any white person will NEVER understand what it is like being a minority.And answer this question:

Why didn't they have a white/asian person have makeup as a black person?
Why didn't Tom Hanks be a black guy?
Or why wasn't Hugo Weaving a black guy?

The reason is because the directors would get DESTROYED. They knew that would not be racially sensitive. Yet they go on their merry way doing the EXACT same thing for Asians/Latino's. Everyone can agree that Blackface is racists and in bad taste, yet Yellow face is okay.
rolleyes.gif For the third time,
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425507/cloud-atlas/120#post_23434396
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425507/cloud-atlas/150#post_23438983

BTW, I still haven't seen your apology to me for saying that I have a sensibility of a caveman.
post #221 of 301
sog35, for what it's worth, I'm sorry you experienced racism. But know that Whites also experience such in Asian countries, or even Asian neighborhoods such as San Francisco's Chinatown. I personally believe that Racism is a holdover from our tribal past, when it was pro-survival to hang out with your tribe, and dangerous to encounter other tribes.

But I'm just not making the connection. Why is it offensive to you that Hugo Weaving portrayed an Asian character? Was it also offensive when Korean actress Doona Bae portrayed a impoverished Mexican woman or a Black slave?

I attach no particular importance to the race of the actor, I care about the performance. I saw no demeaning stereotypes or outright racist attitudes in this movie, and I did see a lot of good acting.
Edited by Gary McCoy - 6/24/13 at 4:43pm
post #222 of 301
Damn. This thread sucks.
post #223 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

Damn. This thread sucks.
I guess I am going to have to put this one on top of the pile and save this thread....
post #224 of 301
You know what sog, I just wrote a much longer post but I've decided there's no need to bother anymore. This is my last post in this *cough* discussion.

People who give you valid points that could even remotely question your view of the film, you ignore them.
I've asked you about 5 times already if you read the damn book, you ignore it and for an obscure reason you won't answer. But don't worry the author is probably as racist as Hollywood.......... rolleyes.gif The truth is, having read it maybe, just maybe, would help you understand, and who knows even appreciate, some of the directors' decisions a little more... Which is why I asked you in the first place. A simple yes or no would do, there's no shame if you haven't read it you know... We're just talking. Wait... understanding? openmindedness? No no....not in this thread!

rolleyes.gifmad.gif
post #225 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

You know what sog, I just wrote a much longer post but I've decided there's no need to bother anymore. This is my last post in this *cough* discussion.

People who give you valid points that could even remotely question your view of the film, you ignore them.
I've asked you about 5 times already if you read the damn book, you ignore it and for an obscure reason you won't answer. But don't worry the author is probably as racist as Hollywood.......... rolleyes.gif The truth is, having read it maybe, just maybe, would help you understand, and who knows even appreciate, some of the directors' decisions a little more... Which is why I asked you in the first place. A simple yes or no would do, there's no shame if you haven't read it you know... We're just talking. Wait... understanding? openmindedness? No no....not in this thread!

rolleyes.gifmad.gif

I have not read the book.

But I know for a FACT that the book does not have the same soul LOOK THE SAME. They are identified by the birthmark as the same soul. IMO 'dressing up' the same actor as different races cheapens the experence. It is more distracting than anything else. Look how they did it in The Fountain. No need to resort to halloween makeup.
post #226 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

sog35, for what it's worth, I'm sorry you experienced racism. But know that Whites also experience such in Asian countries, or even Asian neighborhoods such as San Francisco's Chinatown. I personally believe that Racism is a holdover from our tribal past, when it was pro-survival to hang out with your tribe, and dangerous to encounter other tribes.

But I'm just not making the connection. Why is it offensive to you that Hugo Weaving portrayed an Asian character? Was it also offensive when Korean actress Doona Bae portrayed a impoverished Mexican woman or a Black slave?

I attach no particular importance to the race of the actor, I care about the performance. I saw no demeaning stereotypes or outright racist attitudes in this movie, and I did see a lot of good acting.

Give me a break. You experience racism in San Fran. Cry me a river. Tell that to Blacks in the South who had decades of Slavery and then Segregation. Tell that to Asian who were SENT TO PRISON and lost their business during WW2 just because they were Asian.

Doona Bae did not portrail a Black slave.

In fact no actor/actress was given makeup to look black. Why? Answer that question and then you will know why many are mad at the yellowface.
post #227 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcruiser View Post

This is silly.
In the movie Iron Sky (2012), street signs, news stands, trash cans ...etc of Frankfurt, Germany was changed to look like New York City for the sake of story and budget. Should New Yorkers be offended? I'll bet some are. Those are probably the ones that get offended no matter what.
rolleyes.gif For the third time,
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425507/cloud-atlas/120#post_23434396
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425507/cloud-atlas/150#post_23438983

BTW, I still haven't seen your apology to me for saying that I have a sensibility of a caveman.

Find me 10 articles from the internet that show NewYorkers were offended and called Iron Sky racists. You are just making things up at this point.

I won't apologize until you admit that you were wrong in saying 'tough sheet' to those who are offended by racist roles in hollywood. Are you Black? Are you Mexican? Are you Korean. No you are not. Has your people been under forced slavery in the past? Have they been thrown in prison, raped, murdered just because their skin was of a different color? Have they been mocked and scored in Hollywood for decades? And to that you say 'tough sheet'?
post #228 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcruiser View Post

If they are not expressed where you can see, then how do you know who or how many are angry?
Including the customers of that restaurant?
You've already gone through this on this thread which some of the posts got deleted and you couldn't prove that your own personal view is THE OFFICIAL view of the world. Repeating the same thing won't change the outcome.

They have not expressed in a PUBLIC FORUM. But its from my Asian friends. Many of them were disgusted with the movie and the yellowface. Will they go out and protest? No. But they were ANGRY.

I never said my view was the view of the world. It is not. Many people are not offended by the movie. But I know many Asians are. I've already linked about 10 articles of people who were offended. Many of my Asian/Black/Mexican friends were also offended.

Try ask any of YOUR Asian friends if they were offended by the movie.
post #229 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

No, the reason is that the characters were who they were based on the book.None of the characters Tom Hanks or Hugo Weaving played were black. One of the characters Jim Sturgess played was Asian. So, you either hire an Asian actor who will play 5 characters who are caucasian, or you hire a caucasian actor who has to play one Asian character. The choice is simple.

(EDIT: also, hire a better makeup artist)

The movie does not follow the book. The slaves in 19th century suppose to be Polynesian NOT Black. Its not like they had to follow the book EXACTLY.
And its not like every character was in EVERY SINGLE time line or played a promient role in EVERY SINGLE time line. Look at Doona Bae. She only played one big (Korea) and two tiny role as a white lady and I think a mexican lady. Why couldn't they do the same with a Korean/Asian actor? He could be the hero in Seoul, a role in AFTER the FALL, and a small role in one of the other timelines (yes Asians did exist in 18th century).

Also there was no reason to make all the characters in the Korea timeline 'asian'. The bad guys could be black or white. Its not like only Asians live in Korea in the future. Neo Seoul sure looks a massive metropolitian like NYC. Where people of ALL races live and work. No reason to give white actors halloween makeup to make them look Asian/Alien.

Again I ask: Why was there no BLACKFACE in the movie?
post #230 of 301
Methinks thou doest protest too much. The only people offended by this movie were people looking to be offended by something. To continue to argue the point is silly and trivializes a really good film, IMO. The director made a choice to use the same actors throughout to make it easier for the audience to chart the characters' journeys through time. That's all it is; no racism implied or intended.
post #231 of 301
...and there is a deeper, underlying meaning (I thought) that an individual (as an intellectual spirit and soul) travels through time with external variations to the physical body (transcending race or sex), but they are still the same "person" on the inside. This movie wasn't about "equal-time" to shift race amongst actors. It was just demonstrating that a group of souls travel through time in a variety of physicalities.

If you really want to get perverse about meanings, maybe white people have the most to be outraged about this movie, because it implies the realization that you don't get to be white forever. WHUUUUH?!? tongue.gifwink.gif (I keed, I keed)
post #232 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Methinks thou doest protest too much. The only people offended by this movie were people looking to be offended by something. To continue to argue the point is silly and trivializes a really good film, IMO. The director made a choice to use the same actors throughout to make it easier for the audience to chart the characters' journeys through time. That's all it is; no racism implied or intended.

I've already linked 10 articles that called out this movie. A ton of my Asian/Black/Mexican friends were offended. Korean community groups have boycotted.

What makes you the judge of what is offensive or not? It makes to laugh and cry when non-Asian people tell Asian people what should be offensive and what should not be.

AGAIN: Why was there no Blackface in the movie? Answer that question and you will see why we are made at Yellowface in CloudAtlas.
post #233 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

...and there is a deeper, underlying meaning (I thought) that an individual (as an intellectual spirit and soul) travels through time with external variations to the physical body (transcending race or sex), but they are still the same "person" on the inside. This movie wasn't about "equal-time" to shift race amongst actors. It was just demonstrating that a group of souls travel through time in a variety of physicalities.

If you really want to get perverse about it, maybe white people have the most to be outraged about this movie, because it implies the realization that you don't get to be white forever. WHUUUUH?!? tongue.gifwink.gif (I keed, I keed)

this is the type of stealth racism I'm talking about.

BTW. I am Asian. I am also White. I can see both sides.
post #234 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

...and there is a deeper, underlying meaning (I thought) that an individual (as an intellectual spirit and soul) travels through time with external variations to the physical body (transcending race or sex), but they are still the same "person" on the inside. This movie wasn't about "equal-time" to shift race amongst actors. It was just demonstrating that a group of souls travel through time in a variety of physicalities.

If you really want to get perverse about meanings, maybe white people have the most to be outraged about this movie, because it implies the realization that you don't get to be white forever. WHUUUUH?!? tongue.gifwink.gif (I keed, I keed)

The part you missed is the book NEVER mentioned that the reincarnated characters look the same or even simular to their previous life. There was no reason to use Tom Hanks in 6 timelines. What connected the characters as the same SOUL was the BIRTHMARK. PERIOD.
post #235 of 301
You can do that in a book, but you need some visual cues in a movie. That is just inherent to the medium. If it came down to just using a birthmark, probably nobody would get it (as far as movie watchers). I probably wouldn't. 6-stories and 3 hrs of material...sometimes you just gotta help a viewer out with some easy hints just to establish the baseline of what's going on. Whether the movie would have been better or worse if it only relied on birthmark, that is another discussion altogether, I think. I think what they went with in the movie was adequate, as far as scaling accessibility to the standard movie-goer audience.

If you think about it, a birthmark is a physical property, anyway...so the concept of it identifying a soul is a fail, anyway. wink.gif
Edited by Mr. Hanky - 6/25/13 at 6:51am
post #236 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

this is the type of stealth racism I'm talking about.

BTW. I am Asian. I am also White. I can see both sides.

...or maybe you are in internal conflict between your 2 halves, and need one of those ancient Vulcan ceremonies? tongue.gif
post #237 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

Thread closed.

Thread Closed in your dreams, although it might be a good idea. First, I made You Know Who the one and only resident of my Ignore list. Alas, I soon learned that doing so wouldn't be enough. The guy is such a gifted troll, many posters quote his virulent, hateful, nonsense, so I have to read a lot of it anyway. I have decided at last to simply unsubscribe from the thread. Life is easier this way. Happy trails, partners, I'll see you down the road.smile.gif
post #238 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

The part you missed is the book NEVER mentioned that the reincarnated characters look the same or even simular to their previous life.

How would you know? I thought you hadn't read the book...?
post #239 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Thread Closed in your dreams, although it might be a good idea. First, I made You Know Who the one and only resident of my Ignore list. Alas, I soon learned that doing so wouldn't be enough. The guy is such a gifted troll, many posters quote his virulent, hateful, nonsense, so I have to read a lot of it anyway. I have decided at last to simply unsubscribe from the thread. Life is easier this way. Happy trails, partners, I'll see you down the road.smile.gif

It's sad that it comes to that. Despite the fact that I can't decide whether I liked the movie or not, it's left me thinking about it for weeks. I keep coming back to this thread in hopes that it will have progressed a little. Unfortunately, I don't that's going to happen.
post #240 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

How would you know? I thought you hadn't read the book...?
Oh, he "knows" because he is a troll. wink.gif
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